The Most Difficult Transition For Me...

[Margee]

I think one of the  greatest gifts on earth to those of us that were lucky enough to be born with a somewhat healthy brain, is imagination. Most of all of us here on Ex-C are ‘critical’ thinkers in our own way, who are using our brains to the best of our ability to come to our own conclusions. Who does more research than us?

 

I personally love reading about Albert Einstein. I know that Albert Einstein was not a fan of ‘immorality’, but he died just when television was becoming popular. I often wonder if he had lived on for the last 58 years...would he have changed his mind a little with the new discoveries of physics?

 

I love his talks on imagination and other thoughts he had about life.. He once said, "Imagination is more powerful than knowledge." He was well known for the concept of thinking like a child.. He also said: "Imagination is more important than knowledge; for knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world and universe, and all there ever will be to know and try to understand."

This attitude allowed him to experiment and understand the universe in ways that others could not. He used his imagination to conduct his ' thought experiments' that helped him see the world from new perspectives. Some people thought he was crazy. There seems to be a fine line between 'genius' and insanity!! Lol

 

In some of his more famous thought experiments, Einstein would imagine himself riding on top of a beam of light and then asking questions about what this experience would be like.For example, if he had a flashlight and turned it on, would he see a frozen beam of light coming from the flashlight riding beside him? If he held a mirror in front of his face, would he see a reflection? Would he even see the mirror at all? Einstein understood that his imagination would help him see what could be possible, instead of what everyone else thought to be obvious or assumed to be true at the time. He gave his imagination the power, and not the knowledge or theories of the day. In fact, his imagination challenged and transformed scientific theories and the way we think about the nature of our universe.

 

Robert Kennedy said, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask, why not? I believe that imagination is more powerful than knowledge because while knowledge helps you see the ‘proven’ and understand things as they are, imagination allows you to see things as they could possible be."

 

Logic is based on facts, proven things that are researched. But without the imagination, who would have thought enough to make an ‘idea’ logical? We studied the bird and now we fly all over the world.. We study ‘string theory’ and can let our imaginations go wild with that concept. We have the ability to form spiritual principals from this alone.

This is obviously not a ‘cookie cutter’ world. If it was, we would all be living in a ‘Stepford Wives’ earth. Robots. As long as everyone remains ‘open’ to all the concepts and nobody thinks they have the ‘right’ answer.....I am OK. It’s people who think they are so right that get on my nerves.

People do adopt beliefs or philosophies for very good reasons.....it gives them hope.

As long as one isn’t killing, torturing, stealing, lying, cheating, hurting anyone or sending someone to hell - I say let the imagination have its ‘hay-day.’ If string theory makes one happy and you’re not hurting anyone....have fun with it. (I am using string theory as an example) If one thinks that angels are guiding their lives and it doesn’t hurt anyone, let them have their angels.

My opinion for what it’s worth would be to allow people to use their brains and imaginations enough to help them be happy, joyous and free. My biggest aim in life right now is to love and allow people to figure things out by themselves. I’m Ok as long as you feel happy and content. Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones who doesn’t need a 100% ‘proof’.

 

It wasn't long ago, the humans on the earth thought it was flat. The people who lived 200 years ago wouldn’t believe what the world offers today. Even my sister who has been dead for 16 years would 'flip out' at some of the technology in 2013. I think we have a long way to go yet to get all the ‘right’ answers about the universe.....

 

I love this quote by Einstein:

 

"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper."

 

A list of brilliant physicists and scientists who do believe in an afterlife of some kind... or conciousness existing outside the body. They can’t all be stupid.... 

 

http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/physicists.htm

[RipVanWinkle]

Gawd Margee. You just get better and better. You certainly have found your niche. I love it.  bill

[Kris]

I don't mean to be a poop-- but I guess belief in the afterlife is difficult for me-- I have never experienced ghosts, visits from the dead, or saw strange beings or had objects move without a logical reason. Perhaps I am not empathic-- but I am cynical when none of the experiences that others have supposedly had can be replicated. I have watched a few ghost shows on tv and found them to have highly suggestive people on them and frankly just find them un believable.

 

 

I do however believe that our minds can create comforting situations-- visions, dreams etc. to help us when we are in life- threatening circumstances and often that is what NDEs are-- or we are having lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis or other physiological experiences that get confused in our brains. I also believe that people can pick up on others brain waves-- which can be confused as ESP or OBE experiences.

 

Perhaps I am not an empath and that is why I don't see things--- but I haven't seen enough conclusive evidence to believe we do anything other than shut down once we pass. I sure wish there was such a thing as reincarnation as that would be cool.

[Margee]

I don't mean to be a poop-- but I guess belief in the afterlife is difficult for me-- I have never experienced ghosts, visits from the dead, or saw strange beings or had objects move without a logical reason. Perhaps I am not empathic-- but I am cynical when none of the experiences that others have supposedly had can be replicated. I have watched a few ghost shows on tv and found them to have highly suggestive people on them and frankly just find them un believable.

 

 

I do however believe that our minds can create comforting situations-- visions, dreams etc. to help us when we are in life- threatening circumstances and often that is what NDEs are-- or we are having lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis or other physiological experiences that get confused in our brains. I also believe that people can pick up on others brain waves-- which can be confused as ESP or OBE experiences.

 

Perhaps I am not an empath and that is why I don't see things--- but I haven't seen enough conclusive evidence to believe we do anything other than shut down once we pass. I sure wish there was such a thing as reincarnation as that would be cool.

 

Kris...look and investagate some of the people in the list I have left above just to see if some of the things they explain in their theories could make a little sense of you. They do have conclusions to why they are stating what they are finding. Investigating reincarnation can be quite fun! Just keep an open mind!! 

[Kris]

I actually did Margee-- but kind of lost it when I saw reference to ectoplasm and flying trumpets!! If things like this are really going on-- why hasn't it been conclusively documented in a way to negate cynics like me? Or even more so-- why hasn't anyone been able to prove a spirit to the Amazing Randi in order to claim his million dollar prize?

 

I have looked into Dr Ian Stevenson ( I think I messed up the spelling!) and found his stuff interesting, but not overwhelmingly convincing.

[Margee]

I actually did Margee-- but kind of lost it when I saw reference to ectoplasm and flying trumpets!! If things like this are really going on-- why hasn't it been conclusively documented in a way to negate cynics like me? Or even more so-- why hasn't anyone been able to prove a spirit to the Amazing Randi in order to claim his million dollar prize?

 

I have looked into Dr Ian Stevenson ( I think I messed up the spelling!) and found his stuff interesting, but not overwhelmingly convincing.

 

 

I do understand Kris. I really do. As I said in my post above, I am probably one of the lucky ones who does not require 100% proof.

 

It's ok girl!  hug!

[Kris]

Thanks Margee-- it is probably hard for people like me-- who still struggle with issues related to deconversion and religion to then turn around and be supportive of spirituality -- but maybe in time I can end up being more open- minded about things.

[florduh]

I don't think many people, if any, require 100% proof. Asserting that they do is a tactic frequently used by Christian apologists. It is used to cast doubt on beliefs that rely on actual evidence and put religious faith on an equal footing with demonstrable reality.

 

What I, and I assume Kris, require is at least some evidence for any fantastic claims that people toss about. We require that science doesn't demonstrably refute the extraordinary claim. We accept that in many specific paranormal claims, sufficient testing has been done for decades with no positive results and it is now reasonable to close the book on it. We shouldn't keep revisiting long debunked hokum (spirit trumpets???) but for some reason people won't ever let these things go. Some still seriously believe and attempt to prove the Earth is only 6,000 years old despite mountains of clear archaeological evidence to the contrary; if a young Earth happens to be your own belief it doesn't seem silly at all, but to those who have seen and understand the numerous evidences against it, the very idea is baseless and laughable.

 

Kris, I hope I wasn't wrong to include you in my response.

[midniterider]

I think one of the  greatest gifts on earth to those that we’re lucky enough to be born with a somewhat healthy brain is imagination.Most of all of us here on Ex-C are ‘critical’ thinkers in our own way, who are using our brains to the best of their ability to come to our own conclusions. Who does more research than us?

 

I personally love reading about Albert Einstein. I know that Albert Einstein was not a fan of ‘immorality’, but he died just when television was becoming popular. I often wonder if he had lived on for the last 58 years...would he have changed his mind a little with the new discoveries of physics?

 

I love his talks on imagination and other thoughts he had about life.. He once said, "Imagination is more powerful than knowledge." He was well known for the concept of thinking like a child.. He also said: "Imagination is more important than knowledge; for knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world and universe, and all there ever will be to know and try to understand."

 

This attitude allowed him to experiment and understand the universe in ways that others could not. He used his imagination to conduct his ' thought experiments' that helped him see the world from new perspectives. Some people thought he was crazy. There seems to be a fine line between 'genius' and insanity!! Lol

 

In some of his more famous thought experiments, Einstein would imagine himself riding on top of a beam of light and then asking questions about what this experience would be like.For example, if he had a flashlight and turned it on, would he see a frozen beam of light coming from the flashlight riding beside him? If he held a mirror in front of his face, would he see a reflection? Would he even see the mirror at all? Einstein understood that his imagination would help him see what could be possible, instead of what everyone else thought to be obvious or assumed to be true at the time. He gave his imagination the power, and not the knowledge or theories of the day. In fact, his imagination challenged and transformed scientific theories and the way we think about the nature of our universe.

 

Robert Kennedy said, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask, why not? I believe that imagination is more powerful than knowledge because while knowledge helps you see the ‘proven’ and understand things as they are, imagination allows you to see things as they could possible be."

 

Logic is based on facts, proven things that are researched. But without the imagination, who would have thought enough to make an ‘idea’ logical? We studied the bird and now we fly all over the world.. We study ‘string theory’ and can let our imaginations go wild with that concept. We have the ability to form spiritual principals from this alone.

 

This is obviously not a ‘cookie cutter’ world. If it was, we would all be living in a ‘Stepford Wives’ earth. Robots. As long as everyone remains ‘open’ to all the concepts and nobody thinks they have the ‘right’ answer.....I am OK. It’s people who think they are so right that get on my nerves.

 

People do adopt beliefs or philosophies for very good reasons.....it gives them hope.

 

As long as one isn’t killing, torturing, stealing, lying, cheating, hurting anyone or sending someone to hell - I say let the imagination have its ‘hay-day.’ If string theory makes one happy and you’re not hurting anyone....have fun with it. (I am using string theory as an example) If one thinks that angels are guiding their lives and it doesn’t hurt anyone, let them have their angels.

 

My opinion for what it’s worth would be to allow people to use their brains and imaginations enough to help them be happy, joyous and free. My biggest aim in life right now is to love and allow people to figure things out by themselves. I’m Ok as long as you feel happy and content. Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones who doesn’t need a 100% ‘proof’.

 

It wasn't long ago, the humans on the earth thought it was flat. The people who lived 200 years ago wouldn’t believe what the world offers today. Even my sister who has been dead for 16 years would 'flip out' at some of the technology in 2013. I think we have a long way to go yet to get all the ‘right’ answers about the universe.....

 

I love this quote by Einstein:

 

"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect, as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper."

 

A list of brilliant physicists and scientists who do believe in an afterlife of some kind... or conciousness existing outside the body. They can’t all be stupid.... 

 

http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/physicists.htm

 

Great post, Margee. :-)

[midniterider]

I actually did Margee-- but kind of lost it when I saw reference to ectoplasm and flying trumpets!! If things like this are really going on-- why hasn't it been conclusively documented in a way to negate cynics like me? Or even more so-- why hasn't anyone been able to prove a spirit to the Amazing Randi in order to claim his million dollar prize?

 

I have looked into Dr Ian Stevenson ( I think I messed up the spelling!) and found his stuff interesting, but not overwhelmingly convincing.

 

Randi's income is tied up in the skepticism business. Nobody will ever win the million dollar prize because the Randi empire would go down in flames at that point. It would be like a church minister announcing his atheism. Truth does not put food on the table. :-)

 

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page30.htm

[wndwalkr99]

Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones who doesn’t need a 100% ‘proof’.

 

I don't really see that as "lucky" or really a function of "luck" at all.

 

That said, most people don't need 100% proof or anything to believe it. *Some* evidence (instead of believing something because one wishes it to be true and it isn't falsifiable) is a good start for most people. And that is reasonable.

[Vigile]

Still, if we dont entertain some ridiculous ideas we may stunt our

growth. Some things that were inconceivable hundreds of years ago are

reality now. I'm not trying to prove there is a god, or that there are

supernatural 'things' but that there are natural 'things' that may exist

outside of our current scientific comprehension.

 

Yeah sure.  But some people actually 'believe' in things they have no valid support for, not just wonder about it.  That leaves them vulnerable to virtually any charlatan who can sound convincing enough. 

 

Moreover, this is more often than not done at the behest of their own ignorance.  The wonder they are really missing is the wonder of the universe that we already know, yet they disregard because it doesn't fit into the agenda of what they hope is true.  I personally don't get why some would want this. 

 

 

 

Wouldnt it be interesting if it were possible to take a man from the 1st

century and have him witness a rocket launch from Cape Canaveral or let

him communicate with someone on a cell phone.

 

I've always been fascinated with similar ideas.  But I wonder if they would see the wonder we think they would.  My father told me a story about a radio show that pulled a similar stunt when he was young.  They tracked down a hillbilly who was living so deep in the woods, he'd never even heard of a telephone, much less a television, etc... They took him to Washington or somewhere similar and asked him his views.  He was pretty unimpressed.  I suppose Aristotle or DaVinci might react differently, but I wonder how your average joe would react. It would still be a cool experiment. 

[Vigile]

 

I actually did Margee-- but kind of lost it when I saw reference to ectoplasm and flying trumpets!! If things like this are really going on-- why hasn't it been conclusively documented in a way to negate cynics like me? Or even more so-- why hasn't anyone been able to prove a spirit to the Amazing Randi in order to claim his million dollar prize?

 

I have looked into Dr Ian Stevenson ( I think I messed up the spelling!) and found his stuff interesting, but not overwhelmingly convincing.

 

Randi's income is tied up in the skepticism business. Nobody will ever win the million dollar prize because the Randi empire would go down in flames at that point. It would be like a church minister announcing his atheism. Truth does not put food on the table. :-)

 

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page30.htm

 

Alternatively, he made a bet he pretty much knows he can't lose.  This is because he understands the scientific method and understands the fact that those making extraordinary claims of the supernatural type live in a world that skirts the method.  All it takes is application of a controlled experiment to blow their claims out of the water. 

 

I'd make that bet 100% of the time too. 

 

[mymistake]

 

I actually did Margee-- but kind of lost it when I saw reference to ectoplasm and flying trumpets!! If things like this are really going on-- why hasn't it been conclusively documented in a way to negate cynics like me? Or even more so-- why hasn't anyone been able to prove a spirit to the Amazing Randi in order to claim his million dollar prize?

 

I have looked into Dr Ian Stevenson ( I think I messed up the spelling!) and found his stuff interesting, but not overwhelmingly convincing.

 

Randi's income is tied up in the skepticism business. Nobody will ever win the million dollar prize because the Randi empire would go down in flames at that point. It would be like a church minister announcing his atheism. Truth does not put food on the table. :-)

 

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page30.htm

 

 

That place is funnier than The Onion.  They are going to expose the pseudo skeptics.  What a riot.

[Kris]

Florduh-- you and I are definitely on the same page-- you can include me as a "ditto" to what you had to say!!

[Kris]

My citing of "The Amazing Randy" might not have been the best example to convey what I was trying to say but I would probably be more apt to believe in para-normal activity if I could see something that would conclusively proof that ghosts are real, psychics can read people, or that people really do see flying trumpets!! I would absolutely need to see a trumpet being suspended in air before I would believe that something like that really happened-- and if I did, I would be filming it so other people could corraborate my experience. Even then some wouldn't believe it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And why flying trumpets or opening doors-- if the spirit world was really trying to communicate with us, couldn't they do it in a straight- forward manner?

[Deva]

A common tactic of people who are extremists is to take the worst example of something "flying trumpets" "6,000 year old earth", and then hold these things up to ridicule the other side, whereas there are many people, including myself, who believe there is a life after death but don't believe that flying trumpets were anything but late 19th century quackery, and plenty of Christians who accept evolution and an earth billions of years old.

 

I have always believed that the way to garner the truth is to read about both sides of the issue, then based on personal experience and reason, come to at least a tentative conclusion.

 

I came to the conclusion years ago that the claims of Christianity were baseless; however, that did not mean I believe every scientific theory is flawless or without problems, or some kind of guide for life.

 

If I say I saw a flying trumpet, and upon that basis, believed in an afterlife, that would not personally be enough for me, but I have actually seen things, and experienced things which are more persuasive than that.

[Margee]

 

Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones who doesn’t need a 100% ‘proof’.

I don't really see that as "lucky" or really a function of "luck" at all.

 

ww.......that wasn't a good word to use....You're absolutley right.....

 

'Open-minded' was what I meant....one who researches both sides.....

 

Yeah that's a better word.......

 

Hug!!

[Margee]

A common tactic of people who are extremists is to take the worst example of something "flying trumpets" "6,000 year old earth", and then hold these things up to ridicule the other side, whereas there are many people, including myself, who believe there is a life after death but don't believe that flying trumpets were anything but late 19th century quackery, and plenty of Christians who accept evolution and an earth billions of years old.

 

I have always believed that the way to garner the truth is to read about both sides of the issue, then based on personal experience and reason, come to at least a tentative conclusion.

 

I came the the conclusion years ago that the claims of Christianity were baseless; however, that did not mean I believe every scientific theory is flawless or without problems, or some kind of guide for life.

 

If I say I saw a flying trumpet, and upon that basis, believed in an afterlife, that would not personally be enough for me, but I have actually seen things, and experienced things which are more persuasive than that.

 

 I'm not talking about flying trumpets either Deva!

 

 

hug girlfriend!

[Vigile]

 

 

Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones who doesn’t need a 100% ‘proof’.

I don't really see that as "lucky" or really a function of "luck" at all.

 

ww.......that wasn't a good word to use....You're absolutley right.....

 

'Open-minded' was what I meant....one who researches both sides.....

 

Yeah that's a better word.......

 

Hug!!

 

You know I love ya Margee, but I have to respond to this:

 

 

 

[Margee]

 

 

 

Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones who doesn’t need a 100% ‘proof’.

I don't really see that as "lucky" or really a function of "luck" at all.

 

ww.......that wasn't a good word to use....You're absolutley right.....

 

'Open-minded' was what I meant....one who researches both sides.....

 

Yeah that's a better word.......

 

Hug!!

 

You know I love ya Margee, but I have to respond to this:

 

 

 

 

 

I loves ya too Vigile...but I'm not talking about moving lampshades either!!

hug buddy...

[Vigile]

Ok, but are you giving a supernatural explanation to something just because you can't understand it or because it seems like it must be supernatural? 

[florduh]

A common tactic of people who are extremists is to take the worst example of something "flying trumpets" "6,000 year old earth", and then hold these things up to ridicule the other side, whereas there are many people, including myself, who believe there is a life after death but don't believe that flying trumpets were anything but late 19th century quackery, and plenty of Christians who accept evolution and an earth billions of years old.

 

I have always believed that the way to garner the truth is to read about both sides of the issue, then based on personal experience and reason, come to at least a tentative conclusion.

 

I came to the conclusion years ago that the claims of Christianity were baseless; however, that did not mean I believe every scientific theory is flawless or without problems, or some kind of guide for life.

 

If I say I saw a flying trumpet, and upon that basis, believed in an afterlife, that would not personally be enough for me, but I have actually seen things, and experienced things which are more persuasive than that.

 

The flying trumpets example was taken from a previously listed "scientist" who believes in afterlife/souls/non-local consciousness/etc. and my example of the young Earth was an example of what most here would easily recognize as a scientifically unsupported belief so you could understand how people can view other scientifically unsupported beliefs. That is all.

 

I myself have had two "paranormal" experiences in my life, but I have been shown reasonable explanations. I was fully open to weird experience at the time, but understanding how distorted perceptions and memories in myself and others has made me more skeptical. A thorough layman's study of neuroscience does wonders for the critical thinking tools.

 

Most here have examined Christianity's claims and methodology and concluded that it is bunk despite the fact that millions will attest to healings, visions, and various miracles. Does that mean you're not keeping an open mind? No, it means you have investigated and found enough reason to dismiss the bogus claims of the religion and any new claims of Jesus appearing on toast will not reopen the case. It is settled for us - but the Christians keep telling us we haven't experienced True Christianity and our minds are closed to God and we worship science! See any parallels here with any other supernatural claims?

[Adrianime]

 

 

 

Maybe I’m one of the lucky ones who doesn’t need a 100% ‘proof’.

I don't really see that as "lucky" or really a function of "luck" at all.

 

ww.......that wasn't a good word to use....You're absolutley right.....

 

'Open-minded' was what I meant....one who researches both sides.....

 

Yeah that's a better word.......

 

Hug!!

 

You know I love ya Margee, but I have to respond to this:

[VIDEO]

 

 

 

Vigile, that video was awesome.  Thank you for posting it.

[Jose]

I'm with ya, Florduh.

 

Here's my take...

 

Consciousness can best be seen, not as a discrete "thing" unto itself, but a process... think of it as a show on television.

 

The show looks like the "thing," but it is not. During the process of light and audio amplification, decoding digital signals, projection or pixelation, and other bits and pieces of how televisions work (all of which I'm too lazy to research, but you understand where I am going with this, right? Okay, cool.) finally the "show" becomes clear.

 

To the person watching the television, the television show is the thing and the whole of the thing. But is the show (consciousness) just the light coming from the TV? Is it just the signal going to the TV? Is it just the LCD display? Is it just the speakers? Is it just the production crew that made the show? Is it just the actors? The composers? The soundtrack? The whatever the Best Boy does? Is it just the electricity powering the television? Is it just the power station making the electricity? Is it just the wires, cables, plastic housing, glass screen, or circuits?

 

No, because they all make up what the viewer finally sees as a discrete thing unto itself, which ceases to be itself once any one of the many components stop working, get damaged, or wear out.

 

The show is still happening for someone else, but if you unplug your television, it's not happening for you anymore.

 

Maybe that makes sense, maybe it doesn't... But if you want to play the odds, here they are:

 

Is it more likely that we've gone thousands of years with no compelling evidence of life after death because the spirit world is really good at hide and seek... or because there's no life after death?