msipsy218 Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 So my dad isn't a very religious guy....smokes pot, cusses like a sailor, never goes to church and living with his long-term girlfriend with no plans of marriage. Also supported his ex gf's choice of abortion many years ago and offered to help me pay for an abortion at 17. NOT. RELIGIOUS.But he does believe in god and lately we are becoming more and more distanced in our political views. He came over tonight and we got to talking about religion in government and schools. I told him that if he supports the right for students to lead christian prayer he must also support the rights for students to lead non-christian prayer.....never in my life have I seen him shut down the way he did. He totally turned on his jesus-blinders and wouldn't hear a thing I was saying. We've had so many religious and political talks and he has never been so closed-minded. Then he tells me that he doesn't believe in evolution. When I tried to talk to him about it he said "There are things we can't explain. That must be god." I told him "200 years ago they would have said that their not knowing why the sun rose every morning was evidence for god, but now we can explain that." and again, he just shut down. I'm so frustrated that one of the few people I have in my life to have these interesting conversations with is drinking the jesus kool-aid. Then he pulled the "you're young" card and said tha I would see things differently when I've been around as long as he has, which pissed me off to no end. Sure, I will see things differently in a few years, because I am constantly learning, but he has never devalued my opinion or disrespected my intelligence like that before. Sorry, I'm just hurt and needed to get it out. Also, I miss you guys! Sorry I've been MIA. Life.
wndwalkr99 Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 Hi msipsy Just keep asking him questions he can't answer. Sometimes people freak out and cling to what they "know". He'll think about it all later.
Guest r3alchild Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 Just fact bomb him and reassure him that he has potental in himself to be a loving person no matter how flawed he is. Good luck
Lilith666 Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 I'm sorry. My dad gets like that too: whoever is older must automatically know more. But I don't understand why your dad is pro-Xian prayer and against non-Xian prayer.
ExCBooster Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 Frankly, I suspect the three issues here - age, religion, and politics - are intimately related. It may not help you "win" a discussion with him, since sometimes there's no way to do it. But it may help you understand the problem, and why things seemed to change like they did. Disregard the following if you think I'm wrong, but I sense a pattern here, related to the wider social climate. It sounds like your dad is a Scared White Guy (Angry White Male, in other words but I think the root is fear, really). White, male and at least nominally Christian used to be a winning combination in American politics. Now, it's not so certain. One of the political parties, and a faction, even, within that, the Social Conservatives, bank rather heavily on the support of exactly that demographic. It's a broad cultural complex, really, tying race, age (older, statistically), and religion, to Social Conservative political views. Either you're with them, or against them. See also the Culture War. He may see his interests, as an older white male, as tied to the platform of Conservatism and Christianity. The times, they are a-changin' and he may be petrified. Threat (real or perceived) tends to radicalize people, so he may have been softer on these things in the past, but now that he's scared, he's fossilized his stance. If he bought into the idea that Christian = Good People Like Me, he may think that he has no choice but to close ranks and drink the Kool Aid. I guess the sad part is, he doesn't need to be afraid, but he may be too committed to his stance on the issue to even try to see other viewpoints, or meet other people with an open mind.
Llwellyn Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 Just because your father smokes pot doesn't mean that you can expect him to be anything other than a Christian fundy whose mind has been hacked by the meme.
inorbit Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 Same thing happened to my friend with her father, almost to the letter. I agree that it's a cultural trend. ExCBooster nailed it.
msipsy218 Posted March 3, 2013 Author Posted March 3, 2013 I'm sorry. My dad gets like that too: whoever is older must automatically know more. But I don't understand why your dad is pro-Xian prayer and against non-Xian prayer. He says that Christianity is "intertwined" with our schools and government so much that separation of church and state is really impossible and, therefore, shouldn't be fought. And that christian prayer is part of our society, where as other religions are not, and so christianity is the only one that deserves recognition, I guess? I told him that if we allow a teacher to teach her public school students from the bible we must also allow one to teach from the Qur'an and he just said "no"...I said "How" and he started rattling off about the "intertwined" thing again. So I don't know.....I don't think HE knows. Frankly, I suspect the three issues here - age, religion, and politics - are intimately related. It may not help you "win" a discussion with him, since sometimes there's no way to do it. But it may help you understand the problem, and why things seemed to change like they did. Disregard the following if you think I'm wrong, but I sense a pattern here, related to the wider social climate. It sounds like your dad is a Scared White Guy (Angry White Male, in other words but I think the root is fear, really). White, male and at least nominally Christian used to be a winning combination in American politics. Now, it's not so certain. One of the political parties, and a faction, even, within that, the Social Conservatives, bank rather heavily on the support of exactly that demographic. It's a broad cultural complex, really, tying race, age (older, statistically), and religion, to Social Conservative political views. Either you're with them, or against them. See also the Culture War. He may see his interests, as an older white male, as tied to the platform of Conservatism and Christianity. The times, they are a-changin' and he may be petrified. Threat (real or perceived) tends to radicalize people, so he may have been softer on these things in the past, but now that he's scared, he's fossilized his stance. If he bought into the idea that Christian = Good People Like Me, he may think that he has no choice but to close ranks and drink the Kool Aid. I guess the sad part is, he doesn't need to be afraid, but he may be too committed to his stance on the issue to even try to see other viewpoints, or meet other people with an open mind. No, that makes sense. He is getting older and identifying with what he has always believed to be the normal thing for the older generation to be. He's only 50, so it's not like he's ancient, but I've seen a lot of changes in him over the past few years that really line up with that. Just because your father smokes pot doesn't mean that you can expect him to be anything other than a Christian fundy whose mind has been hacked by the meme. Of course, it's not just that he smokes pot. It's everything about him. Everything I've known about him my entire life is the opposite of fundy, but lately....it's weird.
florduh Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 I think he's been watching the televangelists and Fox News.
Ro-bear Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 I'm older than your dad, and I know a lot more, apparently, and I agree with you, not him. My advice is to let it go. You will never ever change his mind. 1
kolaida Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 I think he's been watching the televangelists and Fox News. I would have to agree with this. Also, that sounds really frustrating. That's too bad since he sounded like a pretty cool person all your life up until now. Also, maybe it IS just that Scared White Male thing-- which is unfortunate because it sounds really hard to change that. I was going to say age, too, but he doesn't seem so old to be worrying about passing away naturally anytime soon. Maybe he and his girlfriend started attending and church and liked the "community" there? I know one thing, it DID always feel nice to feel like you suddenly had friends and had an excuse to make plans with people.
Guest MadameX Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 I am also older than he, and I would say your father has some friends who are Bad Influences. Or he listens to hateful media, like so many of these guys do. Yuk.
RipVanWinkle Posted March 4, 2013 Posted March 4, 2013 I'm older than all of you put together, so I get the last say. (kidding) But I am in my early 70's and I. know that it is characteristic of older people to get nostalgic and to want to return to the way it was when they were young. That's one of the reasons, though not all, that religions have liturgy, ancient music, symbols, etc. It gives elderly people a sense of permanency that is difficult to find in this fast changing world. When I used to go to church I would have this secure feeling when old liturgy was read. When I was young I could not understand why that boring stuff was read week after week. The church leadership is well aware of this, which is why it took a long time for "contemporary" services to catch on. But the elderly, for the most part, don't like contemporary services. So churches hold two services to satisfy both young and old. That may be a pull your Dad is feeling, particularly if he used to go to church when he was young, even if he was not religious. He may be going back to "that old time religion, even if he was not really that much a part of it at the time. Of course 50's seem mighty young to me, from my perspective. But that is another point of view that changes when one is older. bill 4
mcdaddy Posted March 4, 2013 Posted March 4, 2013 So my dad isn't a very religious guy....smokes pot, cusses like a sailor, never goes to church and living with his long-term girlfriend with no plans of marriage. Also supported his ex gf's choice of abortion many years ago and offered to help me pay for an abortion at 17. NOT. RELIGIOUS. But he does believe in god and lately we are becoming more and more distanced in our political views. He came over tonight and we got to talking about religion in government and schools. I told him that if he supports the right for students to lead christian prayer he must also support the rights for students to lead non-christian prayer.....never in my life have I seen him shut down the way he did. He totally turned on his jesus-blinders and wouldn't hear a thing I was saying. We've had so many religious and political talks and he has never been so closed-minded. Then he tells me that he doesn't believe in evolution. When I tried to talk to him about it he said "There are things we can't explain. That must be god." I told him "200 years ago they would have said that their not knowing why the sun rose every morning was evidence for god, but now we can explain that." and again, he just shut down. I'm so frustrated that one of the few people I have in my life to have these interesting conversations with is drinking the jesus kool-aid. Then he pulled the "you're young" card and said tha I would see things differently when I've been around as long as he has, which pissed me off to no end. Sure, I will see things differently in a few years, because I am constantly learning, but he has never devalued my opinion or disrespected my intelligence like that before. Sorry, I'm just hurt and needed to get it out. Also, I miss you guys! Sorry I've been MIA. Life. SISTER!!!!!!!' 1
RankStranger Posted March 4, 2013 Posted March 4, 2013 Sucks when you grow up and realize that your parents are dumbasses like everybody else. Sucks even more when you realize that YOU are too. 1
Vigile Posted March 4, 2013 Posted March 4, 2013 never in my life have I seen him shut down the way he did. He totally turned on his jesus-blinders and wouldn't hear a thing I was saying. Cognitive dissonance. There's nothing you can do to make him see it. He needs to arrive at a conclusion on his own. I'd be my advice to avoid subjects where he's likely to face a challenge to his core beliefs because it's just going to make him defensive. 1
msipsy218 Posted March 4, 2013 Author Posted March 4, 2013 I kind of wish he would get involved with some church people. I think that would help bring him back to the light. Idk though. I guess I hardly know him anymore :/
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