Another Conversation With My Wife

[Lerk]

Lying in bed last night, she brought it up again. I don't remember everything, but among the bits and pieces were:

 

• I don't know how I can love a man who doesn't believe in God.
• I know my daddy's in Heaven no matter what you say.
• I know you think I just bring this stuff up when we're trying to go to sleep, but it's really on my mind all of the time.
• If there's no God, then there's no right and wrong, so if I wanted to go out and commit adultery there's no reason not to.
• What about the prophecies? What about Tyre and Sidon?

For the record, when she asked me for encouragement about her father's eternal destiny last week, I assured her that he is in Heaven. I suppose she didn't believe my lie. But I never said he's simply dead. I thought maybe she didn't believe I was no longer a believer, but clearly she does. She's known I'm an atheist for about a year now, but with her dad passing away, I think it has really brought it to the forefront due to all of the emotion. She's now consumed with it.

 

As am I. It's a traumatic experience, as many of you know, to find yourself living in reality, having believed and faithfully practiced mythology all of your life. (And inexplicable... I should feel nothing but freedom, but it doesn't work that way.)

 

Regarding the statement about her not being able to love someone like me, I assured her that I hadn't changed. She said, of course, that I have. She's right, and so am I. I've changed in that I no longer believe the myths, but I have not changed in how I feel about her, nor in my ideas about what kind of person I should be.

 

Regarding the statement about adultery, implying (in a backwards way) that I can't believe in right and wrong anymore, I simply affirmed that right and wrong do exist, and that we know what those things are. We aren't to do any harm to anyone. We should be kind. And we know this because we know what happens when people aren't good to one another. There's no eternal enforcer, but life generally rewards or punishes certain behavior. (it's called "consequences".)

 

Then, sometime in the middle of the night she woke me up when she was moving around, looking for some sort of medicine by the bedside. She asked if I was mad at her, and I said "no".

 

I'm certainly not mad, and I can completely understand her position. It's scary for her. She doesn't really know what to expect. She's naturally obsessed with thinking about it.

 

Even though it's a "nothing" in reality... there are no gods, so not believing in one is really nothing... it's an enormous change in thought. I'm still trying to justify it in my mind, to make sure I'm right, and to figure out how to convey it. I spend a fair amount of time on the internet (this site and others) when I should be working.

 

I think what I need to do is sit down with her after dinner and explain that this wasn't a choice, it was a realization. I need to get through to her how hard it has been emotionally for me, as well. She needs to be clear that I believe that I am accountable to her, to my family, to my employer, and to my neighbors, even though I'm not accountable to an invisible god. And I need to reassure her that I intend for us to spend the rest of our lives together, that she is still the most important thing in my life, and that I would never abandon her.

 

She'll still be worried about my eternal destiny, buy maybe I can get her past the point of worrying about the next 10 or 20 years.

 

Any suggestions by those of you who have successfully navigated these waters are welcome.

[TrueFreedom]

It sounds like you are doing the right thing, MisterTwo. Do your best to make her feel loved and accepted. Respect her decision on whether or not to go into the details of your perspective at this time. Be patient. As you mentioned, explain your realization to her, perhaps with a high-level explanation of what lead you to that realization.

[mymistake]

For starters you might want to bring up the subject when it's a better time to talk.

 

Maybe start out with what love means to you and how you plan to be there and accept her even without religion.

[DrNo]

Make sure to keep doing fun/intimate things with just her to show her your feelings have not changed.

[raoul]

The question about knowing right from wrong - the answer to it did not ever come from a god in the first place. It began with primitive man including those depicted in the ot of the bible and has evolved into our modern day socetial laws, morals, and rules. In other words, humans have always been the author of right/wrong. So her question is fallacious to say the least.

 

And on a darker note - I sense you and her drifting farther apart. Not through anything you've said or done since you're operating out of a platform of honesty. She's in denial and I don't know what you can do or say to change this.

[TrueFreedom]

It may just be a phase. My wife made it past it after some struggle.

[RipVanWinkle]

Mister Two: One of the things I sometimes miss about Xtianity is prayer. I truly wish I could pray for you and your wife without being hypocritical and foolish. I really know how you must feel. I get the feeling that you are very much afraid you will lose her. And I think the last thing you want is for her and you to drift apart. I worry about that myself because I know my wife is disappointed that I am an exchristian, though she has not threatened to leave. One thing that I found did not work with my wife is my attempting to show, through reasoning, that Xtianity is a myth. She gets angry at me if I try, so I don't anymore. The thing is the church my wife attends is her social network and she loves it. She's in the choir and has good friends. She is not a critical thinker.  That's not her fault. She is a very nice person. If it were possible, which it is not, I would gladly abandon my disbelief to make her feel better. But I can't do that; I would have to lie.

 

Gawd, it infuriates me that Xtianity has done this to your wife and mine and many others. But there is no sense crying about that. The only advice I can give you is what I try to do with my wife. I try to stay off the subject of religion, I don't criticize Xtianity in her presence and I let her know I love her in as many ways as possible. But my wife and I have been married a long time and have 5 adult "children". So it's a different situation than yours. Also, what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. 

 

Your knowledge of your wife is the most important information you can have in this matter. Taking that into account is indispensable     Good luck.   bill 

[RachelSkates]

Very sad. We have not evolved to think rationally yet. Just look at Congress. So it is no surprise that people think "someone is in Heaven" and yet not realize what that would really mean. Where would they all be? Wouldn't they get bored? What about to Christians who hate one another. Kingdoms come and go and no riots in Heaven? It's always been the same for a million years?

 

None of it makes sense. But we as humans cannot accept or understand or even recognize the inconsistencies. We just aren't there yet.  

[MissingLink]

I am so sorry.....

 

I can empathize with what you are going through.  I am still in the middle of it myself.  My husband still believes - he has questions, too, but he still WANTS to believe.  We have had periods where we try to talk about it, and periods where we don't.  I just realized/recognized I no longer believed about a year ago, so it's still relatively recent.  I know he wishes I would go back to church, and that things could go back to the way they were. 

 

So I have no advice, really.   Often just the passing of time helps.   Right now it's new, and raw, especially with your wife having just lost her father.  But as time goes by, and she sees that you are still the decent, loving man she married, hopefully she will accept you and continue to love you for who you are. 

 

And I know what you mean about this site - when I found it in Dec., I couldn't stop reading, and I still check in at least once a day. It helps so much to know there are others who feel the same way and have gone through similar experiences.

 

I wish you and your wife the best.....

[Margee]

 

Lying in bed last night, she brought it up again. I don't remember everything, but among the bits and pieces were:

 

• I don't know how I can love a man (anyone) who doesn't believe in God..... cliche - how could anybody be good without god?
• I know my daddy's in Heaven no matter what you say. Please somebody tell me I'm going to see him again??
• I know you think I just bring this stuff up when we're trying to go to sleep, but it's really on my mind all of the time.
• If there's no God, then there's no right and wrong, so if I wanted to go out and commit adultery there's no reason not to. She thinks morality comes from god. Tell her of the many christians who do cheat in marriages.
• What about the prophecies? What about Tyre and Sidon? The beginnings of all the questions we had??
•  

 

 

MisterTwo.......I could be seeing this a different way. I've made a couple of notes in red above.  Is there any chance, do you think, that she could be a 'doubter' and can't admit it?

 

In a lot of ways, she sounds terrified to me. I swear these were the same questions I had when I first started doubting. She sounds like she's looking for anyone to convince her of the doubts we all felt. Is there any possibility of this?. Has she asked you any questions about why you stopped believing? Does she talk about it? Maybe deep down, she is agreeing' with it and could never admit it.  Just some food for thought...

 

 Keep holding her and loving her. That's what she sounds like she needs more than anything. Hold each other.

It's so hard....I truly hope you guys can work this out. Best wishes to you both.

[Ellwood]

Hi Mister2

 

I am in the same spot. I agree with all the advice here, williamjdavis in particular.

 

I had my laying in bed and getting that conversation on Christmas Eve while watching Its a Wonderful Life!

 

Hang in there and know we are hear to listen and encourage.

 

Phil

[Lerk]

Thanks, all. Margee, you are correct that she sometimes doubts, and her guilt complex associates her doubt with my deconversion.

 

William7davis, I don't know how long your "long time" is, but we've been married 31 years. This is probably the biggest thing our marriage has had to get through, although her clinical depression has made the going pretty tough at times. (She had that before I knew her.)

 

Mymistake, I think you're right in that I need to find a good time to talk with her. Having serious conversations isn't my speciality.

 

TrueFreedom, I read your extimony, and found it very encouraging.

[TrueFreedom]

I'm glad that you were encouraged, Two. I think sneaking in things like the Galapagos documentary in ahead of time helped for me. My wife was also already exploring Eastern wellness concepts, so she was a bit more open to different perspectives than most. I hope that things improve for you.

[rocksandstuff]

Your experience sounds very similar to my own experience, your post could easily have been a conversation my wife and I had a few years back (4 years now). Tough times for sure...

• I don't know how I can love a man who doesn't believe in God.
• I know my daddy's in Heaven no matter what you say.
• I know you think I just bring this stuff up when we're trying to go to sleep, but it's really on my mind all of the time.
• If there's no God, then there's no right and wrong, so if I wanted to go out and commit adultery there's no reason not to.
• What about the prophecies? What about Tyre and Sidon?

"William7davis, I don't know how long your "long time" is, but we've been married 31 years. This is probably the biggest thing our marriage has had to get through, although her clinical depression has made the going pretty tough at times. (She had that before I knew her.)"

 

Substitute "16" for "31" and, "Jesus prophesies," for "Tyre and Sidon," that was us exactly.

 

My brief advice is: It takes time for a person to change, and to come to accept change in others. Things can get better (or great) over time, but it takes a lot of patience on the part of both partners to work through things.

 

My wife and I were part of a fairly fundamentalist church when I "went through my faith crisis." I came out the other side an agnostic, at best. We now attend a fairly progressive church, and I can be honest about my beliefs with the pastors there. My wife recently told me she is glad I went through the change in beliefs, which blew me away. My wife has changed a lot over that time as well. We read some books together which describe a more accomodating Christianity. We were fortunate to be able to attend a book study together on The Blue Parakeet, by Scot McKnight. My wife needed to realize you could give up fundy beliefs without leaving Christianity. And over time has come to see that you can be an acceptable sort of person even without holding certain religious beliefs.

 

Good luck! And feel free to PM/email, I don't log in here often anymore...

[LifeCycle]

You touched on this already but when you got into how this wasn't a decision on your part but a realization or how I would phrase it... Belief is involuntary.  You can't force yourself to believe in something that doesn't make sense to you.  This isn't your fault.  But according to Christianity, your inability to believe falls all upon your shoulders. Nevermind the vast, endless combination of circumstances that contribute towards what you believe that you have absolutely no control over... No, it's all you.

 

Belief isn't a switch you can turn on... But it is one that's much easier to turn off.

 

So yeah, what I was getting at is you explaining this in more detail to her... That what you or we believe in is largely due to our environment, our life's experiences and many, many other circumstances far beyond our control.

 

This is one of the reasons Christianity was proven as a fraud to me. A god who would use such an unjust system is not just nor all-loving, no matter how many times he and his followers said so.  It's a horrible mechanism for determining an outcome with eternal consequence. 

[owen652]

The way you've explained yourself here is great, the only advice I would give you is to write that down in a personalised letter to her, if you haven't done so already. Women really appreciate when their husbands put that effort and consideration into communicating how they feel, and this fact alone will give further weight to what you have to say. Good luck.

[Lerk]

The way you've explained yourself here is great, the only advice I would give you is to write that down in a personalised letter to her, if you haven't done so already. Women really appreciate when their husbands put that effort and consideration into communicating how they feel, and this fact alone will give further weight to what you have to say. Good luck.

Wow, that seems an awfully formal thing to do in a personal relationship. I understand your point, and I can certainly explain things better if I take the time to write them down, but I'm afraid that it may be misinterpreted as putting my foot down. I would much rather transition smoothly, rather than suddenly.

 

I'll have to think about this. Thank you for the suggestion.

[Ro-bear]

I can't imagine what you are going through.  I'm so glad my wife is not a Christian.  Oddly, I didn't find that out until we had been together two years and were planning a wedding.  We simply never talked about religion in two years together.  Then she handed me a script for the vows, and I said "Well, all this god crap has to go" and she said "Just mark out what you don't like" and we were cool.

[Akheia]

Man, this is such a scary situation for her. Her fear comes through loud and clear to me. I really sympathize; she didn't sign on for this, and she's got a lot of things to process.

 

I was married to a preacher when I realized the Bible was hokum and there couldn't possibly be a god like the Bible describes (and thank goodness for that!). He had many of the same arguments trying to browbeat me back into line. But he was operating out of a narcissistic need to control, not out of fear. The thing about adultery was something he parroted at me more than once. I remember telling him that we both knew of Christians who had cheated on their spouses--if being Christian didn't guarantee fidelity, then not being Christian surely didn't guarantee adultery. Also that non-Christians value fidelity just as much as Christians.

 

But we ended up breaking up, so I don't know how much use that'll be. I like MM's emphasis on just making sure she knows how much you love and value her, and how much of a priority she is in your life. That's what is likely to be the root cause of these arguments she's sparking.

[Guest r3alchild]

I can say a few things here, one, I can see how much you love and care for her, this will be your greatest strength. Two, you need to help her develop insurances to her god saftey net. Three, there is no manual for what your going through. So wing it.

[Galien]

Try and help her understand beliefs are not facts.

[Pantophobia]

Man, this is such a scary situation for her. Her fear comes through loud and clear to me. I really sympathize; she didn't sign on for this, and she's got a lot of things to process.

 

Yes, this combined with what Margee said combines to show a woman who is struggling, and doesn't have the cognitive tools to deal with scary questions. Or if she does, they're drowned in emotions like fear right now. And I will admit, I'm concerned about a grown woman who would say something like this:

 

 

 I know my daddy's in Heaven no matter what you say. Please somebody tell me I'm going to see him again??

 

In fact, that got me a little teary-eyed. So much of our beliefs in Christian ideology stems from those fears of forever losing people we love. If we believe in Heaven, then we can feel they are always there with us, and we will all be together again someday. And it's a really beautiful thought. 

 

That was actually the final nail in the coffin of Christianity for me. My grandma, one of the two closest people in the world to me and a devout Christian, died not too long ago. And if anyone would comfort me from beyond the grave, or would rejoice in the presence of God's love, or would fulfill any of the promises of love, peace and joy Christianity promised, it was her. Within days, several of my hardcore Christian cousins were telling me how they had had dreams of my grandma, and she'd told one that she would meet a new husband soon, and told another that she was still with us. And really, I can say with all certainty that if my grandma truly was able to reach out from an afterlife and communicate, it would not be with that random second cousin, nor would it be about another cousin's love life. She would have come to those who loved her best and desperately needed comfort and reassurance. So after decades of hearing her say things like "Fear thou not, for I am with thee" and "joy comes in the morning," now it is blatantly obvious that it's just not true. She's gone. I don't know where, but she's gone, and she's not sending me "pennies from heaven" to show me she's still with me, or making a blooming rosebush come to life after years of dormancy. And the only thing I know for sure is that if she could, especially knowing my doubts and gut-wrencing sorrows, she would. 

 

It's terrifying to have that foundation shaken, and I'm sure your wife is going through a lot of trauma right now. Be patient, be loving, and don't demand that she see things your way. She has, in Christianspeak, her own path to walk. I hope you two can get through this together, but it's going to take a lot of work. If you do, though, your relationship will be stronger than it ever was with the bible as its foundation. 

[Akheia]

(((Pantophobia))) My condolences. Just wanted to say. And you are so right about Christianity preying on our collective fear of loss. The religion is shot through with cheap, easy answers to our greatest worries, making mockeries of the very things that make us most human.