mjsolis Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Hi all, My name is Mike and to be honest, I'm in quite a bit of trouble. I was a pentecostal for 15 years and I gave up on Christianity some time ago. Unfortunately, I still deal with a lot of fear in regards to the afterlife (if there is one). Probably fueling my fear the most are the bible prophecies that seem to predict the coming of Christ as well as others. I'm wondering how these scriptures are explained rationally as I want to become more stable-minded and less fearful. It's been a hard road deconverting and I've done it all alone. It has taken years to get where I am now, which is not very far. I recently realized that I need help when it comes to this deconversion. I've been to several counseling social workers and have addressed this issue, but none of them seemed to understand where I was coming from. Does anyone have any suggestions and especially resources that deal with biblical prophecy from a non-believers perspective? Thanks much
mymistake Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 First of all welcome to ex-C. You are not alone. If you glance through the testimonial section you will find there are hundreds of people who have gone through a very similar situation. It's not a coincidence that so many people experience the exact same fear and troubles when they leave Christianity. These penalties were carefully planed by cult leaders long ago in order to keep people trapped. Those Bible prophecies that have you worried - the same ones had me put my life on hold back in the 1980's. Everybody had me convinced that the world was going to end twenty years ago. What should I do? Well I needed to pray harder and attend church more and give more money and stay on fire for God . . . and it never came true. Go to any grave yard in the western world and it will be filled with people who were convinced that Christ would return in their lifetime because they were living in the "Last Days". It's another trick to keep people trapped in the cult. The reason the Bible is on a pedestal in your mind is because of all the Christian pastors and preachers who have been using fallacies to make the Bible look like something it isn't. Here is somebody who has taken the time to remove the spin from Bible prophesy: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html That is 228 of them that have failed. But the biggest failure of all is the Gospel of Mark. There should not be any other gospel because Christ should have come back when the ink on the Gospel of Mark was barely dry. The people who read the Gospel of Mark were told that Jesus was coming back in their lifetime. That is what they believed because that was what the prophesy said. And it was wrong. That was why Luke and Matthew were written. Luke and Matthew were both an attempt to fix what was wrong with the Gospel of Mark. They had to make it look like the Christian message wasn't about the Son of Man returning soon. That had to be turned into a metaphor because the prophesy failed. And of course the Gospel of John was written even later to correct what was believed to be wrong with Luke and Matthew. Christianity is a confidence scam. It's a house of cards. That is why they demand that new members believe and accept their dogma. Getting people to believe makes them stop thinking and stop questioning. When you stop questioning then you can't think critically about the cult. Deconversion takes time. What really helped me were the youtube videos by Nonstamcollector, Darkmatter2525, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins. I understand that they have written some good books as well.
Moderator Margee Posted March 11, 2013 Moderator Posted March 11, 2013 hi mj! Welcome to EX-c! You hang around with us cause we know whay you're goinhg through. I was Pentecostal for many years. You'll get lots of support on this site!! Good to have you. hug! For references, here is one of the best threads on 'end times'............ ''Top Ten Reasons Not To Fear Biblical End-times Scenarios'' http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/44234-top-ten-reasons-not-to-fear-biblical-end-times-scenarios/ 1
Galien Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Pentecostals are the creepiest christians of the lot. They use fear to keep you where they want you. I remember in 1974 when I was 14 being terrified that people would be raptured when I was in a car and I wouldbe left behind. For eyars I was terrised by fear of demons and fear of fear itself. They manipulate and bamboozle you and keep you in terror so they can manipulate you. I still have nightmares about the world ending and I am 52 now. This shit sticks. Above all try and take a step back from the fear. Think about it instead of feeling it. Realise how it rolls around inside you and how one thing leads to another and you are pinned down by it completely. It is like a monster we actually create with our own minds, and only we can destroy it.
Akheia Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Hi all, My name is Mike and to be honest, I'm in quite a bit of trouble. I was a pentecostal for 15 years and I gave up on Christianity some time ago. Unfortunately, I still deal with a lot of fear in regards to the afterlife (if there is one). Probably fueling my fear the most are the bible prophecies that seem to predict the coming of Christ as well as others. I'm wondering how these scriptures are explained rationally as I want to become more stable-minded and less fearful. It's been a hard road deconverting and I've done it all alone. It has taken years to get where I am now, which is not very far. I recently realized that I need help when it comes to this deconversion. I've been to several counseling social workers and have addressed this issue, but none of them seemed to understand where I was coming from. Does anyone have any suggestions and especially resources that deal with biblical prophecy from a non-believers perspective? Thanks much Hi and welcome. You'll find a number of us have had to face similar crushing fears that IT MIGHT ALL BE TRUE. That fear is a big part of how Christianity grabs the unwary: we evolved as humans to react precisely this way when presented with unprovable, unknowable fears. The more you learn about how impossible the Bible's deity is, the more you realize how eerily similar Christianity is to any number of older pagan religions floating around the Middle East around that time, the more you learn about how impossible the Bible's version of history is, the more you learn about all the stuff Christianity has gotten totally, absolutely, without question *WRONG* over the years (such as Florduh's failed prophecy list; there are lots of others if you look though), and the more you learn about how barbaric, immoral, and brutal the religion truly is, the less you'll fear. The reason you're so scared is because you don't know enough yet. Knowledge is like a light in the closet of terror--once you turn the light on, you see there are no monsters in there. Pick up books, check out the web's many resources, and educate yourself. This is how many of us--me included--beat our fears once and for all. When we run across someone who is still afraid, it's because that person still lacks the education needed to see through Christianity's many lies. I'd also gently suggest that you find another therapist, because the ones you tried did not fully address your concern. Sometimes it can take a while to find one that clicks with you. Asking in advance if the therapist feels capable of helping you with religion-induced stress and trauma might be very useful. Good luck Best wishes, and welcome aboard.
mjsolis Posted March 11, 2013 Author Posted March 11, 2013 Thanks to each one of you for your responses. I take them very seriously as I feel my mental health now depends on the support of other people who know what I'm talking about. I'm 45 and I've been dealing with these fears by ignoring them since I was 25. This just doesn't work and is not easy. It's time to be proactive, get educated, and shed this mind-controlling state for good. I'd welcome more posts and/or more resources to get me over this huge hump. I figure if I can get as much education as I can, the better. Thanks again
Overcame Faith Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Thanks to each one of you for your responses. I take them very seriously as I feel my mental health now depends on the support of other people who know what I'm talking about. I'm 45 and I've been dealing with these fears by ignoring them since I was 25. This just doesn't work and is not easy. It's time to be proactive, get educated, and shed this mind-controlling state for good. I'd welcome more posts and/or more resources to get me over this huge hump. I figure if I can get as much education as I can, the better. Thanks again Do you have specific bible verses, alleged "prophecies", that you find the most troubling? If you look at them carefully, you will find that it is not the words in the alleged biblical prophecies that are so frightening. Rather, it is their interpretation by end timers that is the source of fear. But they are fear-mongers and their interpretations are based on false presuppositions.
mjsolis Posted March 11, 2013 Author Posted March 11, 2013 Psalm 22 is especially disturbing. Also, the verse where Jesus says some will not die until they see his return in his kingdom. The Christians claim this was when Christ appeared to people directly after his resurrection. Ezekiel 38, where it supposedly mentions the return of the nation of Isreal, which apparently happend in 1948. There are others I can find, but it has been so long since I've read them I'd have to dig them up. Thanks for your response.
kolaida Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 The Science vs Religion and especially Christian Theological issues helped me a lot. I suffered from rather irrational fear of demons and other crazy stuff and it exacerbated my anxiety problems a great deal. Even just last night I got this irrational fear that there was a demon somewhere upstairs in my room and put off going to bed for two hours, got on this site and read through the Christian Theological issues, calmed down and was able to go to bed (but still made sure one of my cats was with me, lol). This was after I had watched the 48 Hours double feature. You will find things that will trigger those fears to try to explain events. As everyone else has said, remember that when you were in Christianity you were probably reading stuff that was written to help reinforce your beliefs, not tear them down. And the material was certainly not written (and probably not viewed) objectively, either. You really have to work to get out of the Christian mindset. It really is different and I don't think people realize how different until they are in the process or they have changed. The religion really reels people (with its promises of "free" love and gifts) in and it's hard to get out. That you recognize it and are working on it instead of ignoring it is really great. I know when I was in therapy (for depression) the biggest thing my therapists harped on me about was avoidance. It won't make the issue go away and will just put off dealing with it. So, it's really good that you are dealing with it! Welcome to Ex-C!
mjsolis Posted March 11, 2013 Author Posted March 11, 2013 Thanks Thinker...Oh, I should have left a link to psalm 22 for Sage to look over. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22&version=NIV
Overcame Faith Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Psalm 22 is especially disturbing. Also, the verse where Jesus says some will not die until they see his return in his kingdom. The Christians claim this was when Christ appeared to people directly after his resurrection. Ezekiel 38, where it supposedly mentions the return of the nation of Isreal, which apparently happend in 1948. There are others I can find, but it has been so long since I've read them I'd have to dig them up. Thanks for your response. I am unable to respond in detail tonight. However, I promise to respond specifically to each of these biblical passages. Do not fear, my friend, each of these is harmless and do not in any way apply to us today. They do not!! Hang in there. I will get back to you.
mjsolis Posted March 11, 2013 Author Posted March 11, 2013 Thank you Sage...And thank everyone for your input. Just hearing from others (and your links) is quite a help.
kolaida Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 I found some links in the forums that helped me some. I know when you're first here, it can be overwhelming a bit because there is so much new information that you usually didn't see before and you get many people's opinions and takes on it and others will do research and provide sources to back their claims or refute others. The way it should be, really. So, here's one on Bible Prophecies someone posted a bit ago-- the top link and the one you will probably find most helpful. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/55481-starting-to-break-free-but-fears-of-so-called-prophecies/ This is just a helpful chart to show the difference between science and faith: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/53318-science-vs-faith-flowchart/ I felt a LOT smarter after reading this thread and more assured (however, I never watched the videos and wouldn't recommend them. Just reading the many detailed posts in the thread is good enough): http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/54614-jim-and-penny-caldwells-archaeological-findings/ And this thread will bring you a lot of interesting answers to the thought you might still have on whether there is a god or not. I waited a little while to go into it, just because I was scared someone would convince me back into the faith, but it has some pretty good and honest points on why not to believe: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/55479-are-we-fools-for-saying-there-is-no-god/ These are just a few links. Explore the boards and you'll find a lot. I think the FIRST link would definitely suit your purposed for the time being. It would at least sate a little bit of your wondering about the prophecies. I can't really say much about Psalm 22. Except to remember everything in the Bible was pretty much written by men who probably did believe in a God, but they didn't have our resources. They also probably thought the world was flat and did not know much outside their own little town/homes and experienced much war. So keep in mind that it would not be unusual in an extremely hard time for a person to call out and write a poem like that during their despair. I think sometimes (I know I did) when we read the Bible we insert a little bit of ourselves since we were taught the Bible was "speaking" to us in a way and we were supposed to be able to relate to God through it. That's what I was taught anyway. It's best to separate yourself from it and see it as something that some very ancient men wrote. I hope this helps you some!
mymistake Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Psalm 22 is especially disturbing. Also, the verse where Jesus says some will not die until they see his return in his kingdom. The Christians claim this was when Christ appeared to people directly after his resurrection. Ezekiel 38, where it supposedly mentions the return of the nation of Isreal, which apparently happend in 1948. There are others I can find, but it has been so long since I've read them I'd have to dig them up. Thanks for your response. Okay it is easy to fulfill a prophesy if you can take a poem that was never written as a prophesy and then write a fictional story that uses (steals) the words of the poem. The gospel accounts never happened. They are as historical as Star Wars. Bringing back Israel is a bit harder. You need a group of people for that and some marketing. Do you realize you could pick any group of people an rename them "Israel"? The modern country Israel is mostly made of "gentiles", it isn't a kingdom, it isn't a theocracy, it doesn't practice the religion of Ezekiel. If Ezekiel could see them today he would probably wish that the real "Israel" would conquer the modern people there, put everybody to the sword except for the little girls who would serve a sex slaves and a dozen more barbaric customs. These prophecies were never fulfilled. Prophecies need to be vague so that any random event down the road might be seen a possible interpretation but then when events don't quite work out right the cult leader can say "no" and then the sheep can still wait for the prophesy to be fulfilled by the next random event.
centauri Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Psalm 22 is disturbing in the way Christians ripped it out of context (a Christian specialty) in an effort to sell Jesus.Let's take a look: Psa 22 (JPS Tanach)22:1 For the Leader; upon Aijeleth ha-Shahar. A Psalm of David. 22:2 My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me, and art far from my help at the words of my cry? If David actually wrote this, then David calls out to God because he was hounded by enemies at various times in his life. The same analogy could also apply to the Jewish people in general, through exiles and slavery. 22:3 O my God, I call by day, but Thou answerest not; and at night, and there is no surcease for me. 22:4 Yet Thou art holy, O Thou that art enthroned upon the praises of Israel. 22:5 In Thee did our fathers trust; they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them. 22:6 Unto Thee they cried, and escaped; in Thee did they trust, and were not ashamed. This is not a prophecy, it's a present tense declaration. 22:7 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. Would Jesus say this? It's also in present tense, not a formal prophecy. This is another reference to David or the suffering servant Israel. See Isa 41:4, Isa 49:7, Psa 44:14-15 22:8 All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head: 22:9 'Let him commit himself unto the Lord! let Him rescue him; let Him deliver him, seeing He delighteth in him.' 22:10 For Thou art He that took me out of the womb; Thou madest me trust when I was upon my mother's breasts. 22:11 Upon Thee I have been cast from my birth; Thou art my God from my mother's womb.22:12 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. 22:13 Many bulls have encompassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. When did Jesus have strong bulls surround him? 22:14 They open wide their mouth against me, as a ravening and a roaring lion.22:15 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is become like wax; it is melted in mine inmost parts. 22:16 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my throat; and Thou layest me in the dust of death. David speaks in present tense metaphor, not a prophecy. 22:17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet. 22:18 I may count all my bones; they look and gloat over me.22:19 They part my garments among them, and for my vesture do they cast lots. These are more present and past tense descriptions of travail and hardship. 22:20 But Thou, O the Lord, be not far off; O Thou my strength, hasten to help me. 22:21 Deliver my soul from the sword; mine only one from the power of the dog. 22:22 Save me from the lion's mouth; yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen do Thou answer me. 22:23 I will declare Thy name unto my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I praise Thee. 22:24 'Ye that fear the Lord, praise Him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; and stand in awe of Him, all ye the seed of Israel.22:25 For He hath not despised nor abhorred the lowliness of the poor; neither hath He hid His face from him; but when he cried unto Him, He heard.'22:26 From Thee cometh my praise in the great congregation; I will pay my vows before them that fear Him. 22:27 Let the humble eat and be satisfied; let them praise the Lord that seek after Him; may your heart be quickened for ever! 22:28 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before Thee. 22:29 For the kingdom is the Lord'S; and He is the ruler over the nations. 22:30 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall kneel before Him, even he that cannot keep his soul alive. 22:31 A seed shall serve him; it shall be told of the Lord unto the next generation.22:32 They shall come and shall declare His righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that He hath done it. David describes and praises the virtues of his God, the God that would eventually one day use Israel to bring all nations to him in the messianic era.. Christianity uses bits and pieces of Hebrew scripture to create a "prophecy", which in reality has nothing to do with Jesus. If anything, the passage possibly alludes to the suffering servant Israel, not Jesus. See Isa 53 for details of how Israel is God's tool that has to suffer in order to bring light to other nations.
par4dcourse Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Fellow ex-Pentecostal, had the crap scared outta me for tears with the four horsemen sermons. Welcome to ex-c. Someone has a thread here showing exactly how late the big guy is. Link somebody?
centauri Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 ... Also, the verse where Jesus says some will not die until they see his return in his kingdom. The Christians claim this was when Christ appeared to people directly after his resurrection. Jesus did not return in his kingdom after the resurrection. Such a return would involve coming on the clouds, with angels and rewards (Matt 16:27-28). All nations would see this coming (Matt 24). The Christian apologetic fails because they ignore the stipulations of the promise in an effort to rationalize the failure away.
mymistake Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Fellow ex-Pentecostal, had the crap scared outta me for tears with the four horsemen sermons. Welcome to ex-c. Someone has a thread here showing exactly how late the big guy is. Link somebody? Not a link. It's a formula. This year 2013 minus 70 AD = 1943 years times the days per year = 709,680 and 3/4 (I didn't include all the leap days.) So Christianity has been "any day now" for the last seven hundred thousand days.
Kris Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Mjsolis--- welcome to sanity!! I too was in a Pentecostal church and it almost ruined my life. I am stll working through a lot of issues but the people on this website are awesome and are always willing to help you work through whatever questions you may have. No question is silly-- if it will help you! It is all going to be ok!!
Adrianime Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Mike, I can't relate to your fears, but reading of your situation makes me pretty sad. I'm sorry you have had to deal with something like this for 20 years. That's almost as long as I've been alive! I can't go in depth into the bible, which is likely the root of your fears. But my thoughts for you are... Have you come to the point in deconversion where you accept that the bible was written by men? If so, can you imagine why they would write it (hint, it is not because a god wanted them to)? If you have reached that point, could you possibly ask yourself if you think the bible is credible? If you honestly do not find the bible credible, then you can discard the claims "prophesies" that are in the it. Fear is powerful, and the Christianity is great at exploiting that fact and using it for control. But I hope you can remind yourself that it doesn't matter what horrible things the bible says, because there is no reason to believe any of the fantastic items in the bible are true. Anybody can say ANYTHING. I can tell you that a meteorite is definitely going to crush New York in 2015. But without credibility, my claims are useless. Claims without credibility have very little meaning, and usually aren't worth your time or emotions. Aside from that, I think embracing life and working towards your goals, aspirations, and pleasures will help to clear your head of negative thoughts. That's just an opinion though. Good luck Mike.
Pantophobia Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Mike, adding my welcome and empathy to the chorus. Those trigger fears can be deeply imbedded, and you're far from the only one who has been paralyzed by them. It's related to OCD in a lot of ways (and it's no coincidence that many of us have dealt with these sorts of anxiety-based issues as a result of Christianity.) Also, it might sound really silly, but I started experimenting with small bits of my life. For this next hour only, I am going to live my life as if God is NOT about to punish me for every thought and breath. I'm just going to test what that feels like, just for this hour, to not have to pray ritualistically, fear death and punishment. For one hour, I am NOT going to be a "poor, miserable sinner" deserving damnation. Okay, now I'm going to try it for an afternoon and see what happens and how I feel after this. (And in the framework of Christianity, certainly God knows and understands that I'm still trying to be a good person and healthy and live a decent life, so what kind of God would punish me for THAT?) Little by little, it helped me manage the fear in bigger and bigger chunks. I was able to have whole days of freedom from that debilitating fire and brimstone fear: Today, I'm going to give myself permission to think that I am actually a really great person, without fear of being punished for my hubris. Today, I'm going to love the elements of this world without fear of having it taken from me as one of God's lessons in perspective. Like anything, it got better with practice, and I am, 99% of the time, the healthy, happy and successful person I want to be instead of adding to that the paralyzing fear that "God" is going to "show me" and "teach me a lesson" by killing someone I love or giving me a terminal illness as punishment for the sin of being happy. The other thing that helped was reading other religious texts, things like the Greek myths and the Epic of Gilgamesh. The bible is far from the only version of some of this crap. Hang in there, Mike. It really will get better. 2
Overcame Faith Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Psalm 22 is especially disturbing. Psalm 22 is troubling to you, and many others, because it is allegedly a prophecy about Jesus’ crucifixion. Christians marvel at how this “prophecy” so accurately predicted some of the details of Jesus’ crucifixion. However, Psalm 22 is not a prophecy at all and has nothing whatsoever to do with any crucifixion. Rather, it served as a story template which the gospel writers used to fashion their various versions of the crucifixion. The gospel writers then either strongly suggested that the Psalm was a prophecy which had been fulfilled or outright said it. Their doing so was nothing more than a cheap parlor trick to try and convince readers that Jesus was the Messiah. Its “fulfillment” was accomplished by their writing a story, not based on facts, that incorporated some of the elements of Psalm 22 which they wanted you (and others) to believe were prophetical. The first question is whether or not Psalm 22 was “prophetical”. Read the Psalm for yourself and read it carefully. However, and this is important, when you read it do not do so with the preconceived notions which both the gospel writers and modern Christians place on it. When you do you will see that the Psalm is the lament of the author, supposedly King David, who feels that God has abandoned him in his times of trouble. The Psalm ends with praises for God which is meant to show the author’s faith that God’s plan, whatever that is, will triumph in the end. There are no words used in the Psalm which express that the events described therein were to happen in the future. In other words, there is no use of the future tense as one would expect from a text which purports to be about events that are supposed to happen at some future time. You will also see that the most important event which the gospel writers and Christians want you to believe was foretold about Jesus’ crucifixion is not present in the text. There are no words which describe a crucifixion. The closest the text comes is the following: “Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet.” Psalm 22:16. There is nothing about a cross and nothing about piercing the author’s hands and feet with nails. Rather, taken in context, the “dogs” which surround the author are a metaphor for those people who are persecuting him. Dogs, like wolves, that run in a pack attack by surrounding their victim and then attacking. The piercing is also metaphorical and is inflicted by the “dogs” biting the author as one would expect dogs to do. There is no cross and no nails anywhere in the text or even suggested by a fair reading of it. Some of the elements of the alleged crucifixion events as portrayed in the gospels can be found in Psalm 22. However, by looking at the gospel texts, it becomes patently obvious that the texts were manipulated to incorporate them. One example is, “They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.” Psalm 22:18. Note that the text of Psalm 22:18 says they “…cast lots for my garment”, with the garment being singular and not plural. Now, let’s look at what the text of Matthew says. “When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.” Matthew 27:35. So, according to Matthew and contrary to what Psalm 22:18 says, they cast lots for Jesus’ clothes, plural not singular. The Gospel of John disagrees with Matthew’s alleged account of the casting of lots. John says: 23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. 24 “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.” This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said, “They divided my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.” So this is what the soldiers did. John 19:23-24 John’s version is significantly different from Matthew’s version. In John’s version, they took Jesus’ outer garments and simply divided them into four shares with no squabbling among themselves. But then they came to a very nice undergarment and began fighting over it. Rather than tearing it into four parts, they decided to cast lots to see who would get it. Where in Matthew the lots were cast for all of Jesus’ clothes, in John the lots were cast only for this one fine and expensive piece of clothing. This example of the different versions of the alleged fulfillment of the “prophecy” of Psalm 22:18 illustrates the manipulation that the gospel writers engaged in to try to convince people that Jesus’ crucifixion was foretold in Psalm 22. Rather than telling of factual events, the gospel writers wrote their stories in a way that made it appear to fulfill what they wanted us to believe were prophecies about Jesus’ crucifixion. A close examination and comparison of the texts proves this fact. Psalm 22 is not a prophecy. Rather, it served as a template for the gospel writers to tell their tale of Jesus’ crucifixion in their efforts to fool people into believing that the details were the subject of a prophecy. But that is a lie. Also, the verse where Jesus says some will not die until they see his return in his kingdom. The Christians claim this was when Christ appeared to people directly after his resurrection. What you speak of did not happen after Jesus’ resurrection. Rather, it supposedly happened before his crucifixion. Here is the text: 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Matthew 24:30-35 Rather than being something to worry about, these verses are actually an excellent example of a failed prophecy. What these verses and others which precede them concern is the Roman conquest of Jerusalem and the subsequent destruction of the temple which occurred in 70 CE. They are presented as a prophecy of Jesus, but that, too, is a parlor trick designed to make the reader believe that Jesus prophesied those events. However, they were written either during the time of the Roman conquest or shortly thereafter. For a more detailed description of this, see my posts 144 and 158 found here: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/44234-top-ten-reasons-not-to-fear-biblical-end-times-scenarios/page-8 The part that failed (though none of it was a prophecy) was Jesus return “…on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.” That return was supposed to happen during “this generation.” A fair reading of the words reveals that “this generation” was supposed to be the generation to whom Jesus was supposedly speaking, but neither that generation, nor any other, has seen Jesus return as predicted. Christians try to say that “this generation” refers to some future generation which will see what they insist are events that will usher in the end of the world. However, the events described are nothing more than the Roman conquest of Jerusalem and are not related to us. In any event, if Jesus meant some future generation, he would have said something like “that generation” or a “future generation.” The words used belie the misguided contention that “this generation” refers to us. Ezekiel 38, where it supposedly mentions the return of the nation of Isreal, which apparently happend in 1948. I dealt with the issue of modern day Israel in another post which I have cut and pasted below for your convenience. Also, I think you mean Ezekiel 37 and not Ezekiel 38. End-timers generally see the formation of the modern State of Israel in 1948 as the single most important prophetic event telling them that Jesus’ return is imminent. What is their basis for saying this? For many, it is the following: 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Matthew 24:32-33 The end-timers contort these verses by saying that the fig tree represents Israel and, in their minds, since Israel was re-established in 1948, they assert that the end “…is near, right at the door.” But notice something very important. In these verses the words attributed to Jesus did not, as they could have, say that when “Israel” is re-established, the end is near. Rather, the end-timers, being convinced that these “prophecies” refer to our times, search out obscure Old Testament passages which compare Israel to a fig tree and from there add words to the Matthew verses which are not there to try to make their point. But let’s go with what the end-timers assert (though it is nonsense) and assume for the sake of this discussion that Matthew 24:32-33 actually refers to the re-established modern State of Israel and see if their further assertion that modern State of Israel fulfills this “prophecy”. To go further, we must examine Old Testament “prophecies” for the rebirth of Israel. There are a number of them, but for the sake of time and space, I will refer to Ezekiel 37. Ezekiel 37 begins with Ezekiel being shown a dry valley full of bones. After some directions from God to Ezekiel which Ezekiel followed, the bones “…came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.” Ezekiel 37:10. God then explains to Ezekiel who these people are. He said, “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel.” Ezekiel 37:11. Note something very important in the words used. God said the bones are the people of Israel. Why is that so important? The answer comes as we continue in Ezekiel 37. However, before we go any further, a short review of history as told in the Bible is in order. Please note that I specified that it is a history as told in the Bible and I am not saying it is true history, because it is not. With that understanding, I will proceed. King David’s reign is considered to be the golden age of the history of Israel. Recall that the Bible asserts that there were twelve tribes of which the Jews (from the tribe of Judah) were only one. What David managed to do was to unite all twelve tribes into one nation called Israel. As time went by, there was a rebellion and ten of the tribes split off and became the Northern Kingdom of Israel and two of the tribes (Judah and Benjamin) became the Kingdom of Judah. 1 Kings 12. Thus, all that David had accomplished by uniting the twelve tribes came to naught and the tribes were separated into two nations. As time went on, the Northern Kingdom of Israel was defeated by the Assyrians and the tribes who lived there were carried off and never heard from again. The Assyrians then resettled the country with others. 2 Kings 17. With this brief “Biblical History”, we can understand the remainder of Ezekiel 37. After the people of Israel were brought back to life in the valley of the bones, God showed Ezekiel what he would accomplish. He did this through having Ezekiel prepare sticks of wood as described below: 15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand. Ezekiel 37:15-17 God then explained what the significance of the symbol he instructed Ezekiel to make. It was that all the people of Israel, that is, all twelve tribes, will be returned and there will be one Kingdom. And this single Kingdom composed of all twelve tribes would be ruled over by King David. Ezekiel 37:18-28. In other words, this “prophecy” was that, not just the Tribe of Judah (or the Jews) would be returned, but all twelve tribes would be returned and form a single nation exactly as King David had ruled over during the golden age of Israel. Now, to take it back to Matthew 24:32-33 which I quoted above. If we assume that this is a “prophecy” for the re-establishment of Israel, then for it to be fulfilled, the following must happen: 1. All twelve tribes of Israel must have, in fact, existed (which is highly doubtful). 2. Assuming they did, in fact, exist, they must all be identified. And I do not mean just the Jews (tribe of Judah), but all twelve tribes. 3. All twelve tribes so identified, must return to the same kingdom of Israel as ruled over by King David. That means, of course, that it must be the exact same borders as when Kind David ruled. 4. The re-established Israel must be ruled over by King David. I’ll be generous and say that Ezekiel 37 does not mean the actual King David, but a direct father to son descendant of King David. The question is does the modern State of Israel fulfill all of these requirements? The answer is obvious – it does not. The modern State of Israel is composed of only a single tribe (if we assume there were tribes in the first place) and that is the tribe of Judah (the Jews) and perhaps some Levites. The borders of the modern State of Israel do not come even close to being the same borders as King David is said to have ruled over. Finally, the modern State of Israel is not ruled over by Kind David (or one of his descendants). Therefore, the re-establishment of the modern State of Israel has no significance from a “prophetical” standpoint at all. It only has significance from a “prophetical” standpoint because end-timers are trying to take modern day events and mold them into the fulfillment of their view of prophecy. But it doesn’t work. 2
Thought2Much Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 This line of thought brings up one thing that has always sort of unconsciously bothered me about the "casting of lots" for Jesus' garments: If Jesus were actually living what he was preaching, why would he own anything worth casting lots for? Also, would the Romans be all that interested in the clothing of a poor Jewish criminal to begin with? Unless he had some nice, expensive jewelry, you would think they would just toss his clothes into a fire somewhere as soon as they got done hanging him on the cross. It would seem that owning clothing worth casting lots over would go against what Jesus had been preaching to everyone else, and so this detail was only included to match the "prophecy" from Psalm 22.
Thought2Much Posted March 11, 2013 Posted March 11, 2013 Oh, and welcome to Ex-C, mjsolis! I also spent quite a number of years in the pentecostal fold with the Assemblies of God, so I know firsthand just how nutty Christians can be.
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