dona_priscilla Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 ...and they keep bringing the issue of religion. I haven't posted much because I'm fortunate to have few issues with my deconversion, so far. I've read a lot about "coming out" to family members but my problem is slightly different. It's not a secret that I don't go to church, and I don't tend to censor myself on FB regarding my atheism and profound disdain for religion (although most of what I post is fluff, like cat stuff, and always in my own page). I haven't felt the need to come out to her -or anyone else for that matter- "officially". I'm not good at pronouncing announcements; I just am who I am and let the rest deal with how they feel about it. My mom is not computer savvy, so she thinks I'm backslidden. Yesterday I got a package of goodies from her, and a letter. In summary she says: ************************* She wants me to know that she knows we don't go to church and is afraid for our souls. Mentions the state of the economy and somewhat links it to the rapture. She doesn’t want us to stay behind "when the trumpet sounds". Reminds us to be thankful (to God, of course) for our success in general, and particularly, for my husband’s organ transplant. At least she recognizes that one person had to die for him to get the transplant, but then adds that god is good, blah blah It was a long letter and don't remember much else, but could not stomach to read more than once. *********************** My mom is really a good person, smart, talented, and even logical in every other way except within her giant blind spot of religious indoctrination. I know she is afraid for us and most likely disappointed, which pisses me off because a parent without religious hang ups would be super proud of me. I must admit she is kind of proud of me… but also apparently thinks I’m an ingrate who’s going to hell, so go figure. Church for her is a lot about comfort and community. And she really believes and reads the bible. She knows the stories, even the ugly ones, but somehow justifies them like many of us did before. She has a leadership position in church, but I think she is honestly worried about my "salvation" and not her image in church. The entire letter is a lecture, a literal “come to Jesus” plea. She doesn’t show an interest in my point of view, never asks me questions. I wouldn’t have a problem with telling her the truth, but damn it, I care about her feelings. I understand the hold of indoctrination and the fear it entails. I've been there. So at first I thought of writing a very vague letter, something like this: “Regarding going to church, I understand your concern, and it hurts to know that you’re afraid for our future. It is not my intention to cause you any pain. You and dad were excellent parents. No one, absolutely no one, has the right to judge you for your adult children. We are independent people, not extensions of you and dad, and thus we’re responsible for our own actions. I noticed in your letter that you never ask me why. Anyway, I will not discuss my reasons, but they surely are not laziness or wanting to have free Sunday mornings, or any other reason you might consider selfish. I assure you that my decisions have been well thought, never taken lightly. I ask you to respect them the same way I respect yours, and that we can push this subject aside in our future interactions. I know that for you this is much more than a difference of opinion and that you want the best for us. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do to relieve the pain this may cause you without compromising my principles and honesty. “ When she called me and asked if I received the package, I thanked her, but did not mention the letter. Now I’m hoping to bury the issue by not sending a response at all. I refuse to have a discussion with her because I know I would not be able to express myself freely. I never am with her. I would be walking on eggshells to not make her cry (if she lets me speak) and frankly, the idea of having this talk is exhausting. Not frightening or intimidating, just tiresome. If she ever mentions anything again over the phone I will simply say that I don’t want to talk about that, or better yet, will stay silent and let her finish her lecture as usual. Although I wish I could be myself with her, I am resigned to the idea of never beign open to her like that, unless asked directly. And I know she may never ask. I’m interested in reading about similar experiences, when you dealt with a very emotional close family member (whom you care about, but is too far gone) and KNOW s/he will never really listen to you, so you just avoid and avoid. Perhaps I'm only delaying the inevitable, but I'll keep dodging the issue until I can't.
new2me Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 My parents don't know that I am no longer a Christian. Fortunately, we don't talk much about religion and I just smile and nod when the subject brushes by in conversation, and say a polite 'thank you' when my mom gives religious books to my kids. I plan to dodge the issue for as long as I can, too. I know that my parents would both be as concerned for my salvation as your mom is for yours. I also know that no conversation on the topic would ever cause them to rethink their views on Christianity, so even the idea of it is pointless. I no longer understand the comfort that they find in their religion, but at this point in their lives, I have no interest in trying to take that from them. I think it was the right call not to send the letter. She will never "get" it. It's probably best to be as oblique as possible when these topics come up, just to keep the peace between you.
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted March 13, 2013 Moderator Posted March 13, 2013 dona_priscilla, your relationship with your mother sounds like my relationship with my parents. I have found that it's best to avoid politics and religion with them. They know that I quit church years ago but have not asked me very many direct questions. I've dodged most of what they have asked. I think that they're starting to get it though. (edited to address the OP)
LifeCycle Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 Yeah, I wouldn't send the letter and I would try to bury your differences with silence. There's nothing you can say or do. People need to find this out on their own. They only listen to others when they're sincerely interested in finding truth. Not many are. "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." -Carl Sagan
Akheia Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I know it is tough to have someone you love turn out to be such an unsafe place for your honesty and truth. I don't have any religious family members trying to reconvert me (even my favorite aunt, who is a nun, doesn't do much beyond sending me weird books about how to be a good Catholic wife etc), but I do have a sister who is an archetypical Tea Party type--Glenn Beck for President, Obummer is an Evil Kenyan, Democrats are Takers, GUNS FOR EVERYBODY, etc. When she gets too out of hand I try to gently rein her in by demanding proof for her claims or sending her links (which she'll never read) debunking her latest Fox-News-inspired conspiracy theory. We have an unspoken agreement not to talk about politics too deeply. At least she's not sending me chain emails about this crap anymore. So I agree with new2me that it sounds like it was a good idea not to send the letter. If you have to walk on eggshells just talking to your mom, I don't think a letter is going to have the desired effect. About all you can do is ask to change the subject when she brings it up, and if she won't comply, end the conversation. Her faith is childish and so are her tactics, so as long as she's making you the Designated Adult, feel free to take advantage of that.
Adrianime Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I don't have a similar story. I also recommend not sending that particular letter just because it sounds overly formal and distant. I know it is tough/annoying talking to a parent about differences in political or religious beliefs. I avoid religion with my father because in the past he has openly said I need to go to church. But mostly I avoid it because I'm not very close with my father, and I don't particularly care if he knows or accepts that part of me. If I did have a good relationship with him I probably would want him to know. The way I would go about it is to give him the opportunity to ask me questions (not make assertions, claims, or suggestions). I would say, "OK Dad, let's learn about each other. I understand what you believe and for the most part why. Are you interested in understanding my thoughts? Or why i have them? Feel free to ask me ANYTHING. I do have reasons, and I'm willing to explain." Obviously I'm being an idealist, but that's just my two cents as they say.
RipVanWinkle Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 It is obvious from your post that you are a very intelligent. well educated person. I fully understand your problem. I have a family member who is as extreme as your aunt. For years I made the mistake of trying to explain through logic and through the inconsistencies in the Bible that his belief system is flawed, all to no avail. With "true believers" it's impossible to break through their barriers. I think the approach of not discussing religion and politics is the best strategy. If that doesn't work then the fall back position should be telling her that you will not discuss those subjects with her. I"m sure you would tell her this as gently and kindly as possible. Hopefully that would put an end to the discussions at least. I wish you all the best. bill
SageHealer Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 Seriously... do we have the same mother? I had no idea I had a long lost sister from Texas! Personally, I would not respond to her letter. That's exactly what she wants and she won't be open to debate or discussion anyway. On second thought, your mom can't be mine. Mine believes once you're saved, you're always saved. She is worried about my husband's soul however.
par4dcourse Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Pick your battles. Sometimes it better to be quiet than right.
dona_priscilla Posted March 14, 2013 Author Posted March 14, 2013 Seriously... do we have the same mother? I had no idea I had a long lost sister from Texas! Personally, I would not respond to her letter. That's exactly what she wants and she won't be open to debate or discussion anyway. On second thought, your mom can't be mine. Mine believes once you're saved, you're always saved. She is worried about my husband's soul however. Ha! My mom is also worried about my husband's soul, but fortunately she desisted on the idea of having a talk with him *shudders* Yeah, she once asked to talk to him over the phone but I said he wasn't available. He hasn't been available yet
dona_priscilla Posted March 14, 2013 Author Posted March 14, 2013 They only listen to others when they're sincerely interested in finding truth. Not many are. "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." -Carl Sagan Very true. The responses I've gotten in this thread have made me feel validated in my decision to remain silent and evasive.
Guest MadameX Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Honestly, as I get older I am more prone to just saying what I think. I am sick of the Christian privilege which allows people to impose their wacky Christian beliefs and expectations on others, without even a polite inquiry into how the other person may think or feel. It's beyond rude. I am no longer an enabler. Done. I've asked my mother to stop sending me her ridiculous religious emails. She has. In person I am happy to discuss the subject and it is not an unpleasant conversation at all. May not be the case for you. Your family, your call. Other family members have sent me ridiculous stuff and I either ignore or if it is particularly egregious ask them in no uncertain terms to stop. It works! 1
LifeCycle Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Seriously... do we have the same mother? I had no idea I had a long lost sister from Texas! Personally, I would not respond to her letter. That's exactly what she wants and she won't be open to debate or discussion anyway. On second thought, your mom can't be mine. Mine believes once you're saved, you're always saved. She is worried about my husband's soul however. Not to derail the thread... But you know, God never mentioned how we would cope with loved ones burning in hell while we're in bliss for all eternity... So it's no biggie (at least to God).
Blue elephant Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 You may need to adjust your strategies as you go along with this issue. Not replying has been a good strategy at this stage. If, at some stage in the future, there is ongoing desire by your mother for a conversation, the letter you have written would be just great!
Guest r3alchild Posted March 14, 2013 Posted March 14, 2013 Is christianity more about the lure than the hook, think of a fish it only fights the line after it been hooked. I did have more to this idea but I over complicated it...
dona_priscilla Posted March 15, 2013 Author Posted March 15, 2013 Honestly, as I get older I am more prone to just saying what I think. I am sick of the Christian privilege which allows people to impose their wacky Christian beliefs and expectations on others, without even a polite inquiry into how the other person may think or feel. It's beyond rude. I am no longer an enabler. Done. I've asked my mother to stop sending me her ridiculous religious emails. She has. In person I am happy to discuss the subject and it is not an unpleasant conversation at all. May not be the case for you. Your family, your call. Other family members have sent me ridiculous stuff and I either ignore or if it is particularly egregious ask them in no uncertain terms to stop. It works! I am also sick of the Christian privilege and couldn't care less about offending most of the religious afflicted. But with my mother the main issue is that trying to engage her in a real dialogue would be a waste of time and energy. She does not listen and the fact that I do not depend on her financially and live hundreds of miles away from her, does not disuade her from trying to exert authority over me. That hasn't worked in a long time so I guess that's why she's trying to be less direct by sending letters. So yeah it sucks that I feel the need to indulge her sense of entitlement regarding religion. Some day she may be ready to listen but until then I will keep evading her.
Guest r3alchild Posted March 15, 2013 Posted March 15, 2013 Maybe your reaction/feelings to your mother and people like that is that your reacting as you would to an allergy from a flower or animal. But the reaction is not the cause. I would think theres something underneith stiring you up to feel that way.
HoopyFrood42 Posted March 16, 2013 Posted March 16, 2013 I have to agree with all of these guys. Silence is best for now. Continue to monitor the situation and when your mom is ready to listen she will come to you. If she can ever get to the point where she wants to hear your point of view then she will be much more receptive than she would be if you talked to her now.
pox Posted March 19, 2013 Posted March 19, 2013 When Dan Savage talks about grown gay kids coming out to their parents, he suggests that the kid allow the parents some time, say a year, to be upset, say stupid things, ask questions, etc., i.e., react badly. After that, they either get over it, or they don't get to have the kid in their lives anymore. If it were me, I might give my mom another pass or two, but at some point I'd respond much the same way you did in your draft letter, and start the clock then. Simply asking why she never asks or tries to understand your change of mind, and holding out for an answer, might jump-start some different thinking.
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