What's a minister to do

[Guest RichStPete]

Yersh

 

Don't give up. it takes time to deconvert... trust me. Hang out here for a while while you go through your thought process.. It will be worth it..

[Ro-bear]

One of my realizations during ministry has been that changing the minds of people about their traditions is next to impossible. In six months I have made no perceivable headway in moving people with whom I have influence.

 

Ain't it the truth! That is why I so rarely make the attempt. Generally, I seek to encourage tolerance of other points of view instead of trying to get folks to change theirs. People hang onto their beliefs with a tenacity that belies the baselessness of their beliefs.

 

Sometimes if you show them some respect they will grudgingly reciprocate.

 

Sorry about raising the grammar issues earlier. I did so only to explain my suspicions, but I'm afraid it gave a false impression that you were unread. Your follow-up posts have cleared up that misconception, I think.

 

I'm glad you are doing the couples counseling; that should help.

 

Your post has made me reflect with gratitude once again that my own path to apostasy was so smooth. So many of my friends here have been through so much; they can help you more than I ever could. I wish you and your family the best.

[Pariah]

Yersh: My advice would be to preach the good parts of Christianity as you now see it and leave out the rest. Steer the congregation toward moderacy as much as possible. That's what I would do, at least.

[Taphophilia]

Don't worry about the writing, grammar, spelling etc. I know people with advanced science degrees who have attrocious spelling and grammar skills. I think that some of us were a little taken a back by your first post, including myself.

 

We are some what leary of Christians coming here under false pretenses in order to gain our trust then attempting to save our souls. Some of us had been burned a while back by a certain Christian who used our posts (some of them sensitive and personal information) for his own gain on his website to impress his Christian friends. Please understand this and understand we were just feeling you out.

 

With that said, I hope you and your wife are going to a secular therapist. One who would be sensitive to both of your issues and help you and your wife comes to terms with the big elephant in the living room that she doesn't want to acknowledge. I wish you all the best and hope you and your wife are able to work this out and ultimately strengthen your reltionship.

 

I think that being in the ministry, you could at least turn it into a positive even though you disagree with their teachings. You are in a position to help others and make the world a better place or at least your little corner of the world. As Mark Twain said: I do good, I feel good. I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.

 

Taph

[Dianka]

I just wonder if he and his family are tied to the church financially. Maybe they can't afford the home they are in if he isn't with the church. I figured that was the reason this way so messy.

 

*Edit*

 

Ok, I didn't see there was a page two. Yeah, I had a friend a while back who was financially tied to the church because he was still in grad school, so I figured that may be the case.

[pandora]

Hmm... thanks for elaborating, yersh. (What the heck does that mean anyway? )

 

So I take it your wife does know on some level then? Otherwise you wouldn't be considering therapy, no? I understand your situation... and I do not envy it. I would be more torn up than you seem to be... I admire you, really, even though some here feel you should step down because you don't believe anymore. Perhaps the church will notice that you are different now somehow and will kick you out anyway... Just be looking for a viable job on the side just in case. You could accidentally blurt something out and you need backup.

[Jose]

First, welcome to ExC, yersh!

 

Second... it's funny, but I'm in the opposite situation because I deconverted years ago, but I've been thinking about going to bible college and entering the ministry simply for the financial stability it offers.

 

A minister friend of mine just had a job offer 500 miles away from here. The church offered $80,000 per year with a 10 year contract and comprehensive, fully-paid medical, dental, and vision benefits, $25K for moving expenses, put him up in a fully-furnished house until he can purchase one of his own, gave him free tuition to continue his education at the local college they run for as long as he wants to go, a free car, a free cell phone, and for all this, he only has to preach twice a week and be available for counseling five days a week for eight hours a day.

 

I could fake it for that kind of package.

[Taphophilia]

A minister friend of mine just had a job offer 500 miles away from here. The church offered $80,000 per year with a 10 year contract and comprehensive, fully-paid medical, dental, and vision benefits, $25K for moving expenses, put him up in a fully-furnished house until he can purchase one of his own, gave him free tuition to continue his education at the local college they run for as long as he wants to go, a free car, a free cell phone, and for all this, he only has to preach twice a week and be available for counseling five days a week for eight hours a day.

 

 

I have always said that if a man wants unlimited money and women, a good career choice would be an evangelist.

 

Taph

[Poonis]

I have no idea why I am posting this but here goes. I am a fundie Christian minister who has lost my faith.

 

It has been gradual and to be honest I really don’t want to loose it but the reality is that it is gone.

 

My wife is seriously pissed and won’t even breach the subject, mostly I think because she is afraid our children will go to hell and she married me because I was in her denomination.

 

I am screwed quite frankly and my situation is such that I must remain in ministry for at least two more years ……. Sounds like an eternity.

 

So pour on the pity and any advice you may have. Thanks

 

I think you should spend the next two years reaching out to those poor bastards in your church, who are afraid of anything and everything, and help them out of Christianity as well. They'll listen to you.

[Guest Yersh]

Well new happenings.

 

I am going to my Bosses with my “faith crisis”. My good friend and co-minister encouraged me to have integrity in the situation. This guy is awesome. He has brought no judgment or guilt my direction; he has consoled my wife and asked her to stick with me no matter what I believe. His #1 priority since I shared my agnosticism with him has been my marriage and my personal well being. I think he is right and so I will have a meeting this Sunday with my bosses to discuss the next step.

 

I am really scared because I do not want a divorce, I do not want to have to get some crap job, and I do not want to move in with my in-laws!! Our housing is provided by the church as a part of my compensation, so I may lose it soon. We have no backup finances. Luckily I trust my bosses and believe that they will be reasonable and kind to my family if the next step is our departure.

 

My wife is more upset than ever. We have a counseling appointment set. I hope it will allow us to be more than roommates in the future.

 

I feel ashamed and stupid for all the pain I am causing people I love.

 

Like many of you suggest this is going to take a long time to deal with.

I still have hope in me that I could believe again just to make my wife happy, I almost want to lie and say that I believe just to end the hurt. Oh the conflict oh the churning. My brain just won't allow me to worship biblegod.

[Dianka]

I hope your wife realizes that she married you for more than your religion - if that were the case she could have married anyone. Hopefully you two can pull through, and your meeting goes well.

[Curtdude]

Hi Yersh,

 

Welcome to the site.

 

Your situation sounds complicated and painful. My deconversion was painful for my family and friends, also. I felt tremendous guilt about "causing" all of the commotion and brouhaha. (I was heavily involved in my baptist church, led music and mentored other men in the faith.)

 

Remember that for all the pain out there that folks are going to lay on your doorstep, your personal agony of deconversion is more serious. You are probably facing an existential crisis regarding the nature of your humanity, the nature and possible non-existence of a deity, and your ethical place in the world. I don't know any ex-christians who left "just to party" and have "free love".

 

Add to all that, apostasy is probably unknown territory for you, and your evolution away from religion will be faster than you realize. Particularly in your ministry role, even if you try to stay, you'll might find the intellectual dissonance intolerable.

 

I hope the trust you feel for the other ministers in your church pan out...my gut tells me otherwise, though. Once you're out of their club, most will turn on you.

 

Those are just my thoughts from my own experience. I have no "advice" to give though, since your path will always be your own. That's the great thing about getting out of the cult: you can start truly thinking for yourself.

[No Heaven for Kevin]

I, too, agree with Japedo. Living a lie can cause serious damage to your psyche, and force you to go through unnecessary anxiety and depression. If your family truely loves you (and I'm sure they do) they will eventually come around and see that you didn't grow horns and start carrying a pitchfork. IMHO, it's also important to teach your children to be open, honest, and to stand up for what they believe in, and the only way to do that is by example. I have three children, and they could care less what my religion is, the great thing about children is they tend to just love you for who you are. Plus, children tend to see through bullshit real quickly, so it's best not to try and carry on any charade with them.

[chad]

Hello Yersh,

 

Firstly, I deeply admire your intellectual courage and fortitude; after all, deciding to jeapordize your marriage, the "happy harmony" of your family, source of income, job-security, residential stability, social-life, and as a result of all the preceeding, your own sense of psychological peace for the sake of what you perceive to be "truth" is the epitome of philosophical excellence--insofar as authentic philosophy is defined by one's search for truth despite the consequences of this search. So on a philosophical level, I have the utmost respect for you.

 

Similar to your predicament, I also decided to sacrifice the extensive benefit package of Christianity to prevent myself from committing intellectual suicide (my entire "anti-testimony" is posted on this site under the title, "Saved From Intellectual Suicide"). My de-conversion crystalized in my junior year of seminary, so I perpetuated a fundy persona and was mentally tortured by the magnitude of dissonance involved for exactly two years (which seemed like eternity) until I finally graduated as a bonafide atheist. Practical reasons--primarily the fact that possessing a theology degree is better than not possessing any sort of college degree...not to mention some lingering "what if your wrong" fears--fueled this two-year imposter crusade. To this day, I regret the decision to maintain a Christian mask just for practical purposes; because in retrospect, I fully realize that those two, precious years could have been potentially spent recovering from the social/financial ramifications of de-conversion sooner rather than later, thereby re-building my life on a foundation that didn't force me to abandon myself or live a lie (which is a form of self-abuse). Simply put, I knew that both options: 1) immediately extracting myself from all things Christain and pursuing a totally new life or 2) First graduating from seminary and then extracting myself from all things Christain would produce an enormous amount of turmoil and pain; but I chose to pay more later rather than pay less sooner--prolonging the amount of recovery time necessary to establish a fully "secular" life apart from Christianity by staying "plugged in" a staggering two years beyond losing faith caused me to pay more later. Since you are searching for advice, based on my experience, get out ASAP and pay less sooner rather than pay more later--either way you won't be able to escape a high level of psychological/practical cost, so pick the lesser of the two evils.

 

And on that note, I agree with the advice of your colleague to approach this issue with integrity sooner rather than later; although, I agree not so much based on the notion that you are ethically/morally obligated to do so in terms of minimizing the negative affects on your family and those under your ministry (which is undeniabley crucial), as I do based on the notion that remaining true to yourself even in the face of life's greatest challenges is the most effective way to ultimately preserve your own well-being and the best-interests of those most affected by your life--failing to be true to yourself only prolongs the inevitable.

 

I have so much more to say about this particular subject, but I have a movie date, so I'll expound later.

[Ruth]

Edited by Loren. By defininition, a Christian has nothing to contribute on how to deal with problems related to having left Christianity.

[quicksand]

Hi Yersh,

 

I was never in the same situtation as you. I left the faith, ironically, as I was being confirmed.

 

However, since your a music teacher, why not just adopt a Christian idenity in the short-term similar to Dr Robert Price - a fellow of the Jesus Seminar? He's an atheist, but partakes in the ceremony as his wife is (I think) is still a Xian.

 

If you got iTunes (its mac and pc compatible) download the Infidel Guy Podcasts // The Bible Geek, episode (... damn, forgot HELP! Mr Neil???...) download them all, you'll appreciate it.

 

It's a blow patch in the short-term, but it may help. I don't know. I hate to see people go through this stuff llike your going through and you know what... I wish you the best.

 

In any event, I'll buy you a beer or 50.

[LloydDobler]

Yersh, it isn't right for you to continue on as always, ministering to your flock and teaching what you no longer believe. The word hypocrisy comes from the Greek for "to play a part" - my friend, if you spend the next two years in the role of pastor, then you will be lying to people and possibility end up hurting members of your flock.

 

You should resign your position if that is possible, try to work things out with your wife... above all, you need to ask yourself why you have fallen away from your faith. You can always turn back to God.

Ah, the absolutism and arrogance of a young person who thinks they know something. It's always amusing. So you just declare anyone who doesn't fully disclose everything they think or feel is a liar?

 

He has the bible knowledge and can be true to the job, telling the 'flock' exactly what the bible teaches, and his church's interpretation of the scripture. There is no reason at all for him to interject his personal beliefs into the job. He's being paid to teach the bible, he's not being paid to believe it.

 

And until you've been in his situation I suggest you refrain from lecturing people on what they 'should' and 'shouldn't' do in regards to their careers and taking care of their families.