Is Atheism the Only Honest Alternative?

[Lycorth]

www.deism.org

 

[Merlinfmct87]

Choosing an honest alternative means that you select an alternative that meets your satisfaction and that you're not dodging or being inconsistant with yourself to hold that position.

 

Even among Christians, there's nothing immediately dishonest about what they believe. There's no lie involved. They just haven't though things through to their conclusion. It's when you bring these things to their attention, and when they start trying to squirm away from obvious problems that it becomes dishonest.

 

I like that. Rings very true for me. Of course, it has to be said that many people are very dishonest in their conclusions. Some are deliberately lying to themselves... others have different reasons for holding on to faith. The reasons are vast, to say the least.

 

Chosing something honestly simply means that you're selecting that alternative tentatively and that you're willing to accept, at any time, that you might be wrong.

 

I like this too... the only thing I'd add to it is that you are also willing to change your views when presented with contrary evidence.

 

Because of the way the church has dominated spirituality in the West and replaced true spirituality with exoteric dogma once people become disillusioned with Christianity they may feel they must throw out the whole concept of God and turn to atheism. But is this the only course?

 

www.deism.org

 

Wild site, Necrosmith. Really liking the reading there. Top notch!

 

Merlin

[aynalhub]

Atheism can leave people feeling empty. The absence of a soul is a terrifying thought, so is the absence of any god.

 

What if it isn't a terrifying thought after all?

 

I am terrified at the idea of not having a cigarette tomorrow because I have a habit, called smoking. That habit provides security and continuity for my ego. Without the acquisition of that continuity, there is no desire for it. Are people inherently terrified of not having a cigarette tomorrow?

 

What I'm saying is, the terror of no personal, supernatural reality existing is created *by* the god, the god is not an answer to the terror.

 

How many countless souls have, in their last moment, breathed in the feeling of hell, only because people talked about a hell their whole lives? God save us!

[Lycorth]

How many countless souls have, in their last moment, breathed in the feeling of hell, only because people talked about a hell their whole lives? God save us!

 

Indeed, over the 2000ish years of Christianity, I wonder that, too. How many have wasted their last moments in abject terror worrying if their lives were lived rightly enough, or that they had enough faith, or would they see Jesus or Satan first as soon as they closed their eyes? Such spiritual terrorism - do we really need to go halfway across the world when every Bible-thumping whackjob is preaching terror in the name of "God"?

 

I've heard the analogy that if a bridge is washed out on the road ahead, you'd tell people that if they insisted on going on that they'd fall to their deaths, which is a metaphor for the rightness of hellfire preaching. Well, if you only think the road is out ahead but in reality isn't, and refuse to believe the evidence that the bridge is just fine, then you're playing with people's heads.

 

Pedal to the metal, baby!

[euphgeek]

Because of the way the church has dominated spirituality in the West and replaced true spirituality with exoteric dogma once people become disillusioned with Christianity they may feel they must throw out the whole concept of God and turn to atheism. But is this the only course?

Not at all. I have personally had experiences which provided me with evidence that there is an afterlife.

[Asimov]

Because of the way the church has dominated spirituality in the West and replaced true spirituality with exoteric dogma once people become disillusioned with Christianity they may feel they must throw out the whole concept of God and turn to atheism. But is this the only course?

 

No....but it's not a wrong course.

[Dianka]

Atheism can leave people feeling empty. The absence of a soul is a terrifying thought, so is the absence of any god.

 

What if it isn't a terrifying thought after all?

 

I am terrified at the idea of not having a cigarette tomorrow because I have a habit, called smoking. That habit provides security and continuity for my ego. Without the acquisition of that continuity, there is no desire for it. Are people inherently terrified of not having a cigarette tomorrow?

 

What I'm saying is, the terror of no personal, supernatural reality existing is created *by* the god, the god is not an answer to the terror.

 

How many countless souls have, in their last moment, breathed in the feeling of hell, only because people talked about a hell their whole lives? God save us!

 

Atheism isn't terrifying to me anymore, but when I questioned what it is that I believed, it was scarry. No soul? No God? No purpose?

 

I agree with everything you wrote, aynalhub. I guess my post was ambiguous. I meant that when people who used to believe in God consider atheism it is a scarry thought. And I don't know if any of the other atheists felt like I did in the beginning, but the transition did leave an empty feeling. That feeling has since past.

[All Gods Fail]

I agree with everything you wrote, aynalhub. I guess my post was ambiguous. I meant that when people who used to believe in God consider atheism it is a scarry thought. And I don't know if any of the other atheists felt like I did in the beginning, but the transition did leave an empty feeling. That feeling has since past.

 

Yeah, I felt like that. I was a 'closeted' atheist for some time, but I thought of myself as an agnostic. I just didn't know what to replace theism with. Saying 'I don't believe in any gods' felt like I was becoming a nihilist!

 

But like you, that anxiety was temporary. Now I feel so lucky every day I'm alive - life kicks ass!

[The Sage Nabooru]

I'm not so dogmatic about it that I feel compelled to

armtwist everyone I meet into becoming an atheist.

 

Happens more often than you think..... I never got why some atheists felt the need to make converts and get everyone to agree with them that they are unquestionably right. They're acting the same way as a fundie, and for a person of any belief to behave so, is immature and childish.

 

I hate it when anyone speaks as though they are the Genius Who Is Never Wrong And Always Indeniably Right.

 

I guess I go under the formal definition of agnostic - that there is no way of proving whether or not there is a God/gods. I believe in a Higher Being, I believe I'm part of that Higher Being, that every living thing is part of that Higher Being - but I don't feel that I can provide the absolute, undeniable proof to anyone. The proof, for me, lies within myself - for anybody who truly believes in a Higher Being, the truth is within themselves. As such, I cannot project My Own Truth on anybody else. For me, there is a Higher Being, for others, that is false. Who am I to call them stupid or wrong? Most of them have very good reasons for having That Truth. For anyone who does not believe in any supernatural (as it's called) world, the Truth lies within them, as well.

 

There is a belief that everything we say and think is true, unless we consciously know it to be false. Say that I call a colleague a bitch. Now, if I knew her personally to be a wonderful woman who was warm and sweet, and I said it merely because I was trying to pull attention to myself and stir up a good rumor or two, then that is Falsity. I lied. But if I knew her in my life personally to be a totally uncooperative and offensive person every time I interacted with her, if I truly considered and believed her to be a bitch, then I would be right. In reality, she is. Within my Truth. She may be an angel to others, but within my experience, it's otherwise.

 

It all comes down to our seperate paths. Nobody can define the Truth since the Truth is different for everyone. This probably sounds like a bag of metaphysical dogshit, but when it comes to spiritual matters we're talking about things that most who believe in them would agree, are beyond such a physical realm as we can immediately describe in concrete terms. In short, anything is possible, for anybody.

[SweetSouthernHeretic]

Because of the way the church has dominated spirituality in the West and replaced true spirituality with exoteric dogma once people become disillusioned with Christianity they may feel they must throw out the whole concept of God and turn to atheism. But is this the only course?

 

To me, framing the question as one of "Christianity vs. atheism" sets up a false choice. It assumes that the Christian/Trinitarian "god" is the only one out there. If you're willing to accept the existence of "god" on faith and are open to changing how you perceive "god," there's a whole smorgasbord of spiritual belief systems available to you.

 

However, if you intended the question to come purely from a perspective of empiric proof vs. faith where the existence of "god" is concerned, "A-theism" does seem to be the logical alternative to "Theism."

[HadouKen24]

I could not remain intellectually honest with either Christianity or atheism. I'm a panentheist, kind of a midway point between pantheism and traditional theism. That is, I thik that there is a "God," and that we (along with the rest of the physical universe) are a part of He/She/It. But God also transcends the physical universe.

 

I find various forms of the cosmological argument convincing. Not deductively unavoidably correct, but convincing. To use an analogy, I accept my perceptions of the world around me because they have a kind of logical coherence. I use that coherence to construct in my mind a picture of the world around me. But that construction has a kind of order itself that doesn't merely conform to the standards that my mind seems to impose on those perceptions--for instance, things fall when dropped anywhere on earth. By analogy--since it's essentially the same kind of reasoning as how I get from sense data to a belief in an external world--I must conclude that there is a transcendent cause of that world.

 

Now, this cause must by its nature be unrestricted by time and space, for it must be the (logically) prior circumstance by which time and space arise. But if that is the case, then what does it mean to say that it's a cause? Aren't causes and effects things that happen in time? So I find that calling it a cause is incorrect. But what could it be, then? The only way to have this transcendent "thing" behind the world, and not have it be a cause, is for the world to be a part of it, a greater thing.

 

Of course, an entity whose primary existence is beyond time and space cannot be thought of as a "person." Personality requires a sense of the passage through time. So in a sense I might be thought of as atheist, since this is hardly the traditional God. But I don't choose to take on that term because it implies a lack of belief in a metaphysically primary entity.

 

And if all that confuses you, then leave the philosophy major to his delusions and ignore it.

[The Sage Nabooru]

I could not remain intellectually honest with either Christianity or atheism. I'm a panentheist, kind of a midway point between pantheism and traditional theism. That is, I thik that there is a "God," and that we (along with the rest of the physical universe) are a part of He/She/It. But God also transcends the physical universe.

 

Yes! Thank you! That's precisely the term I was looking for. Panentheist.

[Guest lrc]

I can accept the existence of an afterlife or spiritual world, but not a god or gods. The problem with believing in a supreme being or creator is that you still have the problem of evil, even if you reject organized religion. How can you explain this supreme all powerful being allowing the rape and murder of a terrified child? Or a genocide? For that reason, I don't believe in God or gods. However, I do believe there is something out there that is incapable of intervening in the physical world. I guess this makes me a spiritual atheist.

[Lycorth]

I can accept the existence of an afterlife or spiritual world, but not a god or gods. The problem with believing in a supreme being or creator is that you still have the problem of evil, even if you reject organized religion. How can you explain this supreme all powerful being allowing the rape and murder of a terrified child? Or a genocide? For that reason, I don't believe in God or gods. However, I do believe there is something out there that is incapable of intervening in the physical world. I guess this makes me a spiritual atheist.

 

Don't let your definition of what a god is or could be become boxed in by the limited and illogical standards of the Big Three monocults. They teach an all-powerful and all-knowing god who can eradicate evil but simply does not. It is more logical that whatever god or gods got the ball rolling for the universe to take form simply are not that powerful or knowing to intervene much, if at all, in the world. It took me a while to deprogram myself from Xian-style thinking and conceptulization.

[Guest Beyond_Belief]

The great thing about gaining freedom from a restrictive belief system like a cult is that people go off in all directions; some become atheists, others agnostics, pagans, Buddhists, new agers etc.

 

With Christian `anti-cult’ organisations we see exactly the opposite; people of a myriad belief systems (ex-Pagans, ex-Buddhists, ex-atheists etc.) all `accepting Jesus’ and thinking alike.

 

So it’s a healthy thing that ex-Christians don’t all end up as atheists; its a sign that we, unlike Christians, are really free!

[Guest Maggie]

When I left fundamentalism I became an athiest for a while. Then I became agnostic, and now I have a profound belief in God...only not the God of Christianity. My definition of God is: The energy that infuses all of life. God is neither all-knowing or all-loving, or good or evil, God simply is. I am probably what some would call a Process Deist.

 

What I have found since I left fundamentalism over 20 years ago is that my beliefs continue to grow and change and evolve as I grow and change and evolve. I am not stuck in any given belief system and simply allow my spiritual path to unfold as I journey through this life.

 

I know many people who have found different spiritual paths after leaving fundamentalism. I think each person must find their own way and decide for themselves what it is that they believe. No one else can do that for us.

[not1not2]

When I left fundamentalism I became an athiest for a while. Then I became agnostic, and now I have a profound belief in God...only not the God of Christianity. My definition of God is: The energy that infuses all of life. God is neither all-knowing or all-loving, or good or evil, God simply is. I am probably what some would call a Process Deist.

 

What I have found since I left fundamentalism over 20 years ago is that my beliefs continue to grow and change and evolve as I grow and change and evolve. I am not stuck in any given belief system and simply allow my spiritual path to unfold as I journey through this life.

 

I know many people who have found different spiritual paths after leaving fundamentalism. I think each person must find their own way and decide for themselves what it is that they believe. No one else can do that for us.

 

Ever looked into Taoism or the idea of 'thusness' or 'suchness'?

 

I personally found the Tao Te Ching to be an inspiration, and, strangely, it both affirmed what I loved about Christianity and negated all the mindlessness and anthropomorphic BS.

 

Additionally, have you read much by Kabbalists. There's an interesting read by Rabbi David Cooper called "God is a Verb". It has made me realize that a lot of Christian theologians really have no idea what Judaism was about.

 

Anyway, I'm personally a practicing Buddhist. Buddhism doesn't specifically accept or reject all notions of God, though it does point out that the idea of a Creator simply isn't correct, though there are beings who might be under the illusion that they (all alone) created the universe. Also, buddhism sort of sidesteps all this metaphysical speculation of before/after and above/below and gets to the here/now and how we are conditioned by environment and how we condition our future for good or ill. It is very practical in that sense.

 

Take care all.

 

_/\_

metta

[MQTA]

When I left fundamentalism I became an athiest for a while. Then I became agnostic, and now I have a profound belief in God...only not the God of Christianity. My definition of God is: The energy that infuses all of life. God is neither all-knowing or all-loving, or good or evil, God simply is. I am probably what some would call a Process Deist.

 

What I have found since I left fundamentalism over 20 years ago is that my beliefs continue to grow and change and evolve as I grow and change and evolve. I am not stuck in any given belief system and simply allow my spiritual path to unfold as I journey through this life.

 

I know many people who have found different spiritual paths after leaving fundamentalism. I think each person must find their own way and decide for themselves what it is that they believe. No one else can do that for us.

 

Good for you

 

Ever hear of Wayne Dyer? He started writing books back in 1976 and is still writing and touring. The last 5 years he's gotten noticed a lot more, but I think his earlier books are the most valuable.

 

The Source... the energy that flows through all living things. I'll go along with that, sure... it works the way it works, nothing magical.

[Guest Luci]

Hi,

Dianka..you said that atheists can feel empty because the thought of no soul terrifies us.

Im an atheist and I dont feel empty although i cant compare it to how I would feel as a christian coz Ive never been one. have you ever been and atheist and even if you have been one people have different feelings. you may have had an empty feeling it doesnt mean that all atheists do and from what Ive read on this site lots of christians have negative feelings like doubt and living in fear and being restricted with enjoying life.

I find it quite offensive when people tell me my life is empty.

As to atheism or christianity, there is lots of grey area. Lots of christians have different beliefs to one another. Why do you think different sects look down on each other and think their own way is right.

An agnostic is someone who doesnt believe in a higher power yet doesnt dismiss it either. Another definition i have read about agnostics is that "they know there is no god/higher power".

This is different to being an atheist or being a theist.

Luci

 

Hi Maggie,

You said that you believe in "god" but god is a ball of energy and isnt a conscious being.

To call something a god dont you have to believe that it is a being and that it has a conscious.

to me that is like saying I believe in god and god is a rock..something that isnt living and doesnt love or hate etc.

Sorry Im not trying to criticise Im just curious.

Luci

[nightflight]

I enjoy reading books by Alan Watts and Thich Nhat Hahn. Both are for all practical purposes atheists. Hell, I even read David Icke.

[Jedah]

My philosophy is that you can believe whatever you want and still be honest with yourself ... As long as you recognize that you dont have proof of those beliefs and that there is a good chance that they could be wrong .

[The Sage Nabooru]

The greatest quote of all time is:

 

"Believe nothing,

No matter where you read it

Or who has said it,

Not even if I have said it,

Unless it agrees with your own reason

And your own common sense."

 

-Buddha

 

BELIEVE what you FEEL. BELIEVE what you SENSE. What you sense may be different from what somebody else senses - but who gives a shit? If it is what truly enlightens you, if it makes you feel at ease, at peace, connected, focused, individual - then it's perfect.

 

Don't let ANYONE - militant atheist, evangelical Christian, fundamentalist Muslim, etc. - tell you what to believe. Find what connects YOU, YOUR-SELF, to the Divine - or not if you so wish.

[snookums]

But is this the only course?

So it’s a healthy thing that ex-Christians don’t all end up as atheists; its a sign that we, unlike Christians, are really free!

 

"I believe in only one thing: liberty; but I do not believe in liberty enough to want to force it upon anyone."

H. L. Mencken

 

that's it in a nutshell for me - and maybe how to be 'really free'!

 

Black and white.....:agggh". the architypal fork in the road...."which way"..a quondery of humankind.....I think the reason for the popularity of the Spongs in this world is that they heavily borrow and use the common architypal symbolism - its common for that reason. People read it and relate...derr!

 

"You" are free to go where ever "you" want and believe whatever "you" like. No one has "you" by the throat (or short and curlies) in a dark room...No thought not!

 

Whats a bit boring to me is when I read and see people blaming someone or something else for their own decisions and outcomes in life. I have bored myself stupid doing it as well....took me years to figure out that I could stop doing what I was doing.

 

Me....I love to question everything i read and also question people - makes me sound like a smartarse at times but thems the breaks. I dare to be different and stand apart from the social order! Hows that....ok... at least I try a lot.