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Guest r3alchild
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Guest r3alchild

About 11 years ago I met a old christian woman who took me into her house and taught me all about christianity. She has become a second mother to me and cares enough about me as my real mother. We have spent alot of time talking about the faith and I have most likely learnt more about christianity from her than anyone else. But of late I have been noticing that she like any other christian plays the same tune. When I confront her on doctrinal matters and inconsistencies in the bible I get the same denial that I have come to expect in even the most liberal christian. She is convinced that god has done everything he can to save people from himself and that his love is closer than our breathing. However there is nothing new or factual about anything she says about god and I am allways left to assume the norm. What do you people think? is there anything I can say to her to help her start critical thinking or should I cut my losses.

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chris....my experience with this in the last 3 years has been that these people will let us know if they are questioning. If they are not, I leave them alone because you cannot change people if they don't want to change. You keep asking the questions and see if she continues to give you the same ole' answers that we all gave to the questioning people when we were 'witnessing' to them years ago.

 

When I was a very strong Christian, other people's questions did not bother me back then. I had the same old answers ready for them. These were times when I wanted the bible to be more true than anything. Belief is a very powerful thing. Once you've been told that black is black and white is white all your life...it's very hard to change what you've been taught to believe. I was taught from birth that jesus died for my sins....

 

.........that's a hard thing to let go of when you grow up and discover it might not be the truth.

 

Let us know how it goes..... and best wishes to you......

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Guest r3alchild

chris....my experience with this in the last 3 years has been that these people will let us know if they are questioning. If they are not, I leave them alone because you cannot change people if they don't want to change. You keep asking the questions and see if she continues to give you the same ole' answers that we all gave to the questioning people when we were 'witnessing' to them years ago.

 

When I was a very strong Christian, other people's questions did not bother me back then. I had the same old answers ready for them. These were times when I wanted the bible to be more true than anything. Belief is a very powerful thing. Once you've been told that black is black and white is white all your life...it's very hard to change what you've been taught to believe. I was taught from birth that jesus died for my sins....

 

.........that's a hard thing to let go of when you grow up and discover it might not be the truth.

 

Let us know how it goes..... and best wishes to you......

I will

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It is my wish that all people think things through and try to make informed decisions, not necessarily agree with me. I just wish they would know why they think what they do. Many, possibly most, just won't. Ah well, as long as they're content and not hurting others I guess they should be left alone.

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Why would you want to?

Because I want to.

 

Why implies purpose.

 

What is the purpose behind "because I want to"?

 

 

Are you trying to "save" her as she once "saved" you?

 

Are you looking for validation of the things you have come to believe?

 

 

Just because you may not believe as she does, doesn't mean she is any different than before.  She apparently still cares for you as you do for her. What difference does it make?

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Nothing personal, but I would find it disrespectful to "convert" her to your way of critical thinking.  If she's happy believing what she believes, and it's causing no harm to others, let her go.  It won't help her to think differently, and could actually cause real harm.  My parents are devout christians, and just because I've come to disagree with most of what they believe, at their age, I don't think it would benefit them for me to call them on it.

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LOL @ saving us from himself... Even in her own words... Does she not see a problem with this?

 

He killed himself so he could save us from himself.... Because he's so loving. 

 

It's just so whacky.

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chrisstavrous: Don't do anything that would risk damaging the love you have for her or the love she has

for you. If she's happy, let her remain so.The majority of Xtians are nice people, just deceived. bill

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Guest r3alchild

To answer a few questions

 

Q. If the christian is of no harm to anyone you may as well leave them alone.

 

A. Lets look at what big bev believes then, she believes that a pink unicorn in the sky saved her from his wrath because she is an evil person, she is forced to fear and love the pink unicorn and the pink unicorn in the sky commands her to convert others to this way of thinking and you wouldnt think that was harmful ? first to her and second to everyone around her.

 

Q. What is the purpose behind "because I want to"?

 

A. Fact

 

Q. Are you trying to "save" her as she once "saved" you?

 

A. Yeah, from the pink unicorn in the sky?

 

Q. Are you looking for validation of the things you have come to believe?

 

A. When I first deconverted I did, but that was because I was taking deconversion on faith untill I had enough facts to go on.

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Your trying to save her from the pink unicorn is exactly the same in principle as her trying to save you from the pink elephant. Enjoy friendship where you find it and don't sweat the small stuff. :)

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Guest r3alchild

 

Your trying to save her from the pink unicorn is exactly the same in principle as her trying to save you from the pink elephant. Enjoy friendship where you find it and don't sweat the small stuff. :)

I was being sarcastic when I said that answer but ill fix it now so no one will mistake it to mean something else.
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Guest r3alchild

 

Your trying to save her from the pink unicorn is exactly the same in principle as her trying to save you from the pink elephant. Enjoy friendship where you find it and don't sweat the small stuff. :)

I guess here that when you say she is saving me from the pink elephant you mean satan, also its a bit tricky to enjoy a friendship with someone who has an agenda.

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Yes, and yes.

 

It may be tricky, but over time friends come to understand each other and learn that friendly teasing can be taken in the spirit meant, but earnest attempts to change what one is can be detrimental to keeping the friendship intact.

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Guest r3alchild

Yes, and yes.

 

It may be tricky, but over time friends come to understand each other and learn that friendly teasing can be taken in the spirit meant, but earnest attempts to change what one is can be detrimental to keeping the friendship intact.

But both parties have to do that and I doubt thats possible with christians, since there commanded to convert others. But non believers are not under any such command, not to say non believers don't go around converting others to equaly crazy ideas.

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I will agree that many Christians are driven by their beliefs to the point of ignoring the humanity of others, but there are some who have a deeper grasp of what they believe and relate to others simply as humans like themselves.

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There's no point. I have tried that with Xian after Xian and I get the same response: refusal to consider what I said. Dad shouts (You are so blind Lilith! The devil has closed your eyes!!!!) Mom keeps repeating that gawd has done great works in her life, and the SS teacher always said that we just have to trust gawd. Xians will question when they're ready. (Though the temptation of getting into a nice, invigorating argument is hard to resist.)

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Guest r3alchild

 

There's no point. I have tried that with Xian after Xian and I get the same response: refusal to consider what I said. Dad shouts (You are so blind Lilith! The devil has closed your eyes!!!!) Mom keeps repeating that gawd has done great works in her life, and the SS teacher always said that we just have to trust gawd. Xians will question when they're ready. (Though the temptation of getting into a nice, invigorating argument is hard to resist.)

They call these things doubts, all of them doubt, but they learn to tolerate doubts as like you would a cold. They believe these doubts come from a external source attacking there internal faith based beliefs. This is what is called a persecution complex and its a form of mental illness. I feel sorry for you that you have deal with all of that, but we should never stop trying to talk to them about the facts.

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There's no point. I have tried that with Xian after Xian and I get the same response: refusal to consider what I said. Dad shouts (You are so blind Lilith! The devil has closed your eyes!!!!) Mom keeps repeating that gawd has done great works in her life, and the SS teacher always said that we

just have to trust gawd. Xians will question when they're ready. (Though

the temptation of getting into a nice, invigorating argument is hard to

resist.)

They call these things doubts, all of them doubt, but they learn to tolerate doubts as like you would a cold. They believe these doubts come from a external source attacking there internal faith based beliefs. This is what is

called a persecution complex and its a form of mental illness. I feel sorry

for you that you have deal with all of that, but we should never stop trying

to talk to them about the facts.

I don't know about that. I think it turns them off. I mean, if someone you don't really know starts being a witness for the lord, then you could share your thoughts. But if people I have known for a while talk about X, I keep my mouth shut because I know nothing I say will change their minds. If anything, they "lift me up in prayer" when I'm not listening. Also, I do not believe that most Xians are mentally ill--just deluded and in denial. Sure, there are a few crazy ones, but the majority just need something to believe in.

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Guest r3alchild

 

 

 

 

 

There's no point. I have tried that with Xian after Xian and I get the same response: refusal to consider what I said. Dad shouts (You are so blind Lilith! The devil has closed your eyes!!!!) Mom keeps repeating that gawd has done great works in her life, and the SS teacher always said that we

just have to trust gawd. Xians will question when they're ready. (Though

the temptation of getting into a nice, invigorating argument is hard to

resist.)

They call these things doubts, all of them doubt, but they learn to tolerate doubts as like you would a cold. They believe these doubts come from a external source attacking there internal faith based beliefs. This is what is

called a persecution complex and its a form of mental illness. I feel sorry

for you that you have deal with all of that, but we should never stop trying

to talk to them about the facts.

I don't know about that. I think it turns them off. I mean, if someone you don't really know starts being a witness for the lord, then you could share your thoughts. But if people I have known for a while talk about X, I keep my mouth shut because I know nothing I say will change their minds. If anything, they "lift me up in prayer" when I'm not listening. Also, I do not believe that most Xians are mentally ill--just deluded and in denial. Sure, there are a few crazy ones, but the majority just need something to believe in.

We can criticize anything when debating with someone, their politics, taste in music or football team. Once we criticize their religion, it gets nasty and people become offended. Why is this? Why can't we talk about religion the same way we talk about any other subject? Why should it be treated with any more sensitivity than any other subject?

 

Richard Dawkins

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They have founded more of their identity with religion then with anything else. 

 

It's a personal relationship dontcha know. Therefore, it can be perceived as similar to attacking their relationship with a friend or a spouse whom they love even if it is abusive. 

To question something that strikes so close to how they define themselves, is to force them to exam how they see themselves. 

 

Many will fight to the death to stay in the matrix.

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Friend, the sad truth is that very few people in the world really want to think critically. It is far easier to go on believing a lie that you have invested your life into than to think critically and change what you believe based on changing evidence. I have talked to more than a few Christian friends and family members about why my views have changed and provided them with evidence. In their mind, the evidence is untrustworthy (part of the "secular agenda!"), God is a mystery that we cannot understand, or subjective experience trumps all. If you tell her you have changed your views and she wants to know about them, fine, tell her all about them. But don't expect to change her mind.

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