Refuting Christian Claims

[boftx]

Yes, Noah had faith in God, which faith was possible because God enabled Noah to believe even though there was no rational proof for such belief. Again, Matthew 16:15 - 17 makes this clear:

 

 

¹⁵ “But what about you,” He asked; “Who do you say I am?”

¹⁶ Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”

¹⁷ Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven.

[boftx]

 

 

"Faith" has no cause other than God makes it possible.If we grant that things happen as/when God wills then I suppose that the effect of believing God's word and the gospel of Christ can not happen until God grants one faith by his grace. But that is the same as saying 1 + 1 = 2.

And therefore it has a cause if it requires something to start it.

 

And as I just said, and supported from scripture, that cause is God himself.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

 

 

"Faith" has no cause other than God makes it possible.If we grant that things happen as/when God wills then I suppose that the effect of believing God's word and the gospel of Christ can not happen until God grants one faith by his grace. But that is the same as saying 1 + 1 = 2.

And therefore it has a cause if it requires something to start it.

And as I just said, and supported from scripture, that cause is God himself.

Yes it can be god himself but theres nothing to hope for if your sure of the cause.

[boftx]

Chris, I'm going to call it a night, gotta get a little sleep before work I'll edit this post tomorrow if I can and put my response in its place. Otherwise I'll just post a new reply.

[Guest r3alchild]

But as a christian you don't just claim faith as a static belief, in fact you claim your faith as a victorious belief, that you have won your right to eternal life through jesus who defeated satan on the cross. But thats not faith but an accomplishment of faith being completed. You can't say that faith is completed in christ on the cross but still have faith in a promise of something your yet to receive.

[Guest r3alchild]

Chris, I'm going to call it a night, gotta get a little sleep before work I'll edit this post tomorrow if I can and put my response in its place. Otherwise I'll just post a new reply.

Ok ill see you when I see you, I left a post above this one.

[Guest r3alchild]

Forum error

 

Ignore this post

[boftx]

I'm not quite certain what you're trying to refute at this point.

 

We agree, I think, that faith is belief (accepting as fact?) without proof. I also think we would agree that belief with proof would obviously have a cause, the proof that inspired the belief. I'm not sure I see the importance of whether or not "faith" has a cause, since obviously rational belief has one, and "faith" is another type of belief.

 

We devolved rather quickly into the usual circular argument concerning faith in our discussion, and to be honest, I think it is unavoidable.

 

Just to make matters worse, the research that shows we might have a genetic predisposition for "faith" would put believing in a religion in the same category as having a predisposition for homosexuality. (You gotta love the implications of that for Christians!) That is, for some people who believe, they don't have a choice.

[Guest r3alchild]

(Note: if you are reading from this post, boftx will be playing the christian in this debate and I will be playing the anti christian, boftx is not a real christian so please don't get confused)

 

Ill explain what I mean better, faith in itself is or should be a hope of something to happen that is based on promise of something unseen.

Allthough it is unseen its not without a cause, I would call this position static, it is faith in a closed belief that has nothing to interfere with it untill the promise of that faith is fulfilled at a later date. But this is not the case with faith, in fact faith to the christians is allready accomplished by the believer claiming victory in christs work on the cross.

 

As a christian, you would say I am waiting on a promise for a 1 resurection into a new body 2 perfection 3 being with god 4 the defeat of evil 5 eternal life. This is a basic outline of that hope you have. Now if I can prove that one or more of these hope based promises is or has been fulfilled then faith does not qualify and if it does not qualify in this one point then the premise for your hope is not based on faith fully and is flawed.

 

Now remember the bible says faith is something hoped for thats unseen, hope is waiting for something to come true. Now when christians say that jesus has won the fight against satan on the cross, no longer does the continuing struggle of evil against good qualify as a promise to be fulfilled but a completion of faith and the ones who really had faith were the people before christ who hoped on the defeat of satan by the power of the coming cross. Victory over satan is only one of the non qualifyers to hope unseen.

 

Next, you claim that as a christian you have eternal life in jesus, wait a minute how can you say I have eternal life when eternal life is also a part of faith and hope that is unseen. You should say, I hope that I will have eternal life not I do have eternal life in christ.

 

So you see that I showed two points to faith not qualifying to being faith because you believe it is fulfilled and that is not a hope for something you can't see yet, it is you claiming how sure you are to something you allready have.

[SquareOne]

A personal favourite of mine:

 

"There's more evidence for an historical Jesus than for the existence of Julius Caesar."

 

Holy moly that stinks of bullshit.

[boftx]

The obvious rebuttal to your refutation is that because Jesus is the Christ and died and was resurrected then all those things hoped for are possible and will happen for the individual believer.

 

Stepping out of my role and speaking for myself, I just don't see where it is a useful point to contend over.

[Guest r3alchild]

The obvious rebuttal to your refutation is that because Jesus is the Christ and died and was resurrected then all those things hoped for are possible and will happen for the individual believer.

 

Stepping out of my role and speaking for myself, I just don't see where it is a useful point to contend over.

Ah my christian friend you said possible and will happen because of faith and jesus. But possible and will might not be the best words to describe being 100% sure, and thats my whole argument is that christians are way to sure to call there faith faith and hope hope.

[boftx]

Okay, I'll rephrase.

 

The items you list were enabled by Jesus as the Christ and will therefore happen for the individuals who believe. Think of it as when a technician comes out and cuts a jumper wire on a circuit board that enables an option in the hardware that was there all along but was blocked at the factory. (And yes, that is how IBM and DEC made billions of dollars on big iron.)

 

By the way, go easy on that "christian friend" crap. If I do a good enough job in my role some idiot might believe you.

[RipVanWinkle]

I just lost about one half an hour of preparing a reply here which pisses me off so much that I'm<br />seeing red. At my age I can't afford to waste time. So this will be a shorten version, to be sure. But it's still pretty long, for which I apologize.<br /><br />I'm going to set forth my understanding of how at least some Xtians see faith and how it actually<br />works. If it's too basic, I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time following boftx's and chrisstavrous'<br />line of thinking. I'm not assigning you blame, guys. I'm just trying get a handle on the topic. How<br />does the following fit with your ideas about Xtian faith?<br /><br />My understanding of many xtians' take on faith is as follows: Faith in god and jesus is available to<br />anyone.<br />It is not earned. It is just a choice, that's all. (I'll use first person here.) I want to get a<br />relationship with god. I go to a Xtian church and hear about jesus and the gospel. I hear and see<br />around me all these people loving each other and being happy. I want that too. I make an alter call and accept christ as my savior and confess my sins. I am told I am now a Xtian. But I don't feel any<br />better.<br />What's wrong? I don't have ENOUGH faith. How do I get more faith? Here's how: I take risks for christ.<br />That will validate my faith. So, I tell my friends and parents that I am a Xtian. That's risky for me<br />because I am a private person and shy. But after I tell them I don't feel better. So, I'm told I need<br />more faith. How do I get it? I take a bigger risk for christ. I give a talk in my new Sunday school<br />class on how one becomes a Xtian. It's well received. I feel better for a few minutes, then it's gone.<br /><br />I need to take another risk-a bigger one. I tell my secular friends. It goes over flat. I don't have<br />more faith as a result. Hmm. I take a big step. I change from a secular to a Xtian school. Big risk.<br />It's tough because I can't make friends fast. I feel lousy. But I read the bible daily. I pray all the time. I tell people that I need more faith. In what way have I sinned, they ask. Well, I think of sex a lot. "There you go", they say. So I bury sex thoughts as best I can.(Good luck.) I become involved in a Xtian club and am asked to be secretary. I accept. Another risk. But I do it. Little by little I'm<br />getting better known finally. But I'm no closer to god than before. My school counselor advises me to<br />go to a Xtian nondenominational college next year. I had wanted to go to the big state college. But<br />since college is for christ, I'll do it. Real big risk. But I feel a little better and closer to god, I think. Maybe god's talking to me during my prayers. He's telling me that the Xtian college is where I<br />should go. I take the step of stepping out to the community to talk to strangers about christ. I feel<br />good about this. Many people are looking for something and I am helping them. I'm feeling closer to<br />christ, I think. The school year passes fast. I go off to the Xtian college. I'm sacred. But christ<br />will be with me.<br />I discover that the college is unaccredited. What?? But how can that help me? I pray. God will take<br />care of me. I feel relieved. Things are looking good, I guess. But I still really don't feel close to<br />god. I'm beginning to have these creeping doubts. It's clearly the devil, and they are bothersome. And I know that a lot of the "feel good with god" comments I make to people are not completely correct.<br />I have to buckle down and be even more certain and assertive. I am asked to go to a debate about the<br />existence of god with both sides being presented. The debater for christ is a well know evangelist. He'll win hands down. The other guy is an atheist from the northeast. Enough said about that.<br /><br />I cheered at everything the evangelists said. The whole audience did. But despite my cheers, there were some things said by the atheist that seemed to make sense. Hell for eternity does seem harsh simply<br />because a person is of a nonchristian culture. Why didn't I notice that before? Hmmm. And I have never really felt that closeness with god that everybody talks about, even I. But this is the devil talking.<br />If I don't get my head on straight, I'll be the one going to hell. I'll never let that<br />happen. I'm going to stop allowing the devil to put those heretic thoughts in my head. Etc., Etc., Etc...<br /><br />And so on it goes for life. And the determination to not let the devil get into the head gets stronger and stronger as life goes on.<br /><br />That's an accurate description of a very predominant kind of Xtian faith. Ain't it fun?<br /><br />It is a trap. It pulls you farther and farther into it by false promises and blaming the new Xtian<br />himself/herself for not having enough faith. All the new Xtian has to do is take more risks, make more commitments for christ. Of course salvation is a free gift of god, you understand. It's you who are<br />the hold up. So the deeper you get in, the more difficult it is to get out. It's kind of a Ponzi scheme: You put everything into it based upon false promises but you get nothing out of it but more false promises.<br /><br />That's Xtain faith. bill<br />.

[boftx]

Bill,

 

I see where someone could turn your post into an argument for predestination. In the case you presented, the person described simply wasn't one of the chosen ones.

 

Back in the days when I still considered myself a Christian, I would have said the person you described was confused in that faith is not something to be measured as "more" or "less" but rather as "stronger" or "weaker". I would say that based on the numerous references to one growing in faith, or being strong in faith. I would also say that such a person was putting the cart before the horse in that they are using works to improve faith whereas in fact works come from faith.

 

Of course, someone else (probably a Calvinist or Baptist) would say that such a person never experienced a true conversion in the first place. Which again can be used to bolster the predestination position.

 

A Catholic, on the other hand, would say don't worry about it, go to confession, do your penance, and live your life as best you can and pray to the saints and the Virgin Mary to intercede for you.

[RipVanWinkle]

boftx: Thanks for your response. I understand what your saying. Both the description you give and the

description I give of faith are both common in Xtianity. In fact, they pretty much the reflect the

controversy in church history between those who opposed JAMES contention that "faith without works is

dead" and the idea that it's faith alone that brings salvation, as contended strongly by Luther.

 

I was not describing a Xtian (at least I didn't intend to)who had left the faith or, for that matter,

would ever leave the faith. Nor was I talking so much about the theological arguments as to what real

faith is. I was instead describing attitudes I have seen by real Xtians whom one would find by the

millions in America and who are steadfast in their dedication to christ, and will never give up. But

the quest for more certainty, and more validation that their faith is sufficient is a never ending

ordeal of religious activity. Their faith never gives them real comfort but they keep on trucking and

will do so as long as they live. The tragedy is that they never really feel at peace and always blame

themselves because they don't have enough faith. They are truly tragic victims of Xtianity.

 

The kind of faith you describe is of a Xtian who doesn't necessarily try to do a lot of "work" to

increase faith, but is more likely the Charismatic, speaking in tongues type who keeps her faith going artificially through emotions. Her faith depends upon being in church or at some other activity and

actively engaging in one or another form of emotional behavior. I don't know whether this is making

much sense or not, but for whatever worth, here it is. bill

[Guest r3alchild]

Boftx, lets end the debate here, if anything I wanted to show that one could make an argument against faith itself, not that I was that good. However I think if we had a real christian arguing there point based on there deep feelings of faith, I think the discussion would turn out diffrent. But it was real fun and I think with time I could work out better aguments against the christian ideals of faith.

[boftx]

Sounds fair to me.

 

What seems more interesting is learning more about the so-called "God gene" that might predispose humans to believe/create a religion. That would put belief on a par with homosexuality in terms of it not being a choice but genetics. It would open whole new lines of discussion with true believers and those who try but fail to make the connection they seek.

 

But that is just speculation for now.

[Guest r3alchild]

boftx: Thanks for your response. I understand what your saying. Both the description you give and the

description I give of faith are both common in Xtianity. In fact, they pretty much the reflect the

controversy in church history between those who opposed JAMES contention that "faith without works is

dead" and the idea that it's faith alone that brings salvation, as contended strongly by Luther.

 

I was not describing a Xtian (at least I didn't intend to)who had left the faith or, for that matter,

would ever leave the faith. Nor was I talking so much about the theological arguments as to what real

faith is. I was instead describing attitudes I have seen by real Xtians whom one would find by the

millions in America and who are steadfast in their dedication to christ, and will never give up. But

the quest for more certainty, and more validation that their faith is sufficient is a never ending

ordeal of religious activity. Their faith never gives them real comfort but they keep on trucking and

will do so as long as they live. The tragedy is that they never really feel at peace and always blame

themselves because they don't have enough faith. They are truly tragic victims of Xtianity.

 

The kind of faith you describe is of a Xtian who doesn't necessarily try to do a lot of "work" to

increase faith, but is more likely the Charismatic, speaking in tongues type who keeps her faith going artificially through emotions. Her faith depends upon being in church or at some other activity and

actively engaging in one or another form of emotional behavior. I don't know whether this is making

much sense or not, but for whatever worth, here it is. bill

What you said does make sense, but the faith of the bible is like that since its so ambiguous to understand in the first place. There are so many variables to faith that in the end make faith faith and the reason why christians object to reason, if you understand what I mean.

[Guest r3alchild]

Sounds fair to me.

 

What seems more interesting is learning more about the so-called "God gene" that might predispose humans to believe/create a religion. That would put belief on a par with homosexuality in terms of it not being a choice but genetics. It would open whole new lines of discussion with true believers and those who try but fail to make the connection they seek.

 

But that is just speculation for now.

But how does one create or believe in god who condones homosexuality in this day and age without the ignorance of the past that created our gods.

[boftx]

One word: Deism (or some variant thereof.)

[Guest r3alchild]

 

One word: Deism (or some variant thereof.)

If we did create a homosexual loving god, then this homosexual loving god would also have to be scrutinized like the rest of the gods out there.