Guest r3alchild Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This idea that they are been lead by the holy spirit is something that I don't know how to combat and in the end I get spirit slammed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 12, 2013 Moderator Share Posted April 12, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This leading of the holy spirit is the jam in there faith donut and I am totaly lost to how to combat such a foe. You can't hon. It would be like asking them to strip naked in front of you and run up the street. You are wasting your precious time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 credit to: ~DeathCl0ck Indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I agree with Margee, but there is something here to use, whether you win or not - there's no "winning" a lot of these things, and, most of the time, it's not really worth it to try. I just argue for sport. There's a false dichotomy hidden in the debate with most Christians in our culture: they assume that the choice is between their god, and none at all (because they have to disbelieve in any others). You can use this to hamstring their arguments that rely on subjective experience (being led by the holy spirit, for example). How? Simple: it's really a choice between their god and belief, and all others. In other words, use things they rely on as the basis of their arguments (I felt this, I was led, I believe in (at least this one) god) as a basis of your own. They're automatically on the defensive, after all: they have to convince you that specifically their brand of Christianity is the only way to go. With practice, you can even tailor this against specific denominations. It's fun. Examples: How do you know that Christianity is the right interpretation of God's revelations? After all, Judaism pre-dates it by quite a bit (and is arguably more consistent), and Islam has the same God, and a complete new (and free of the translation issues) revelation. (That's why every copy of the Koran you will find with English is a tandem translation, with the original Classical Arabic, and a lengthy apology in the preface for even translating God's Word. Islam recognizes that something is lost in translation, and doesn't want to give that kind of error a toehold.) Okay, so you were led by the Holy Spirit. What about other people who were led by their Gods to different conclusions? She's a medium for a Chinese Goddess, and left Christianity when the Goddess spoke to her. Yeah, yeah, demons and whatever, but there's nothing at all to lead me to think that you're right, and they're wrong. "Demons" is just your opinion, and, until you can prove otherwise, it's just an opinion. So, you're telling me that your version is right, and none of these other people (equally moved by their Orishas) are? Your Christian arguments stand on the same ground as the rest of these examples. I'm going to need better proof that your version is the right one. Specific Examples: I see you're Mormon, there. I'm sure you'll have to agree that the KJV is ridden with inconsistencies and omissions for purely worldly reasons. About those plates, and the translation... why is it crippled by the same linguistic errors that the KJV is? Issues with thee and you, for example. Or gendered pronouns, and whatnot. Is it just a stylistic choice, rather than accurate, or what? A lot of this looks so much like the fad for Egyptian mystic stuff before Hieroglyphics were properly translated, anyway. See also: Mozart's the Magic Flute. And Masons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 12, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted April 12, 2013 I would ask if they have any evidence that their "Holy Spirit" is something other than their own thoughts, and why don't all Christians get the same direction from said spirit. I'm sure you know what their (non)answers will be, so I wouldn't waste any time on arguing with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I got 40K denominations that show there's no unifying spirit guiding them...of course all but one of those is "acutally" under the influence of the holy spirit and remarkably, it will ALWAYS be the one they happen to be in... [facepalm] 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 What can you do? They believe that there is a ghost, a good ghost, that has taken up residence inside their bodies, their minds, and is helping them to make decisions of various sorts. That sounds perfectly normal and sane to me. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 12, 2013 Moderator Share Posted April 12, 2013 What can you do? They believe that there is a ghost, a good ghost, that has taken up residence inside their bodies, their minds, and is helping them to make decisions of various sorts. That sounds perfectly normal and sane to me. mwc mwc....It's what I did for many years!!!! I've been ghost -busted!!! No one to lead me now but me....... an empty shell, full of the devil....... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This idea that they are been lead by the holy spirit is something that I don't know how to combat and in the end I get spirit slammed. "That's odd, [Name of Christian Combatant], God put it on my heart to do/say/think exactly the opposite..." "Today, God put it on my heart to tell you, [Name of Christian Combatant] that you have been led astray by the Great Deceiver...let's pray against this right now and ask for forgiveness..." :-) Fun to twist them around a little. Give them some doubt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted April 13, 2013 Moderator Share Posted April 13, 2013 I once asked my pastor how every person in the whole world could possess the 'holy spirit' at the exact same time? His answer came from the book of John where jesus tells his disciples that if he does not die, he cannot leave them with the holy sprit that will lead them all to 'truth' and understanding. I believed that answer. It satisfied me. John 14:15 Jesus says, "If you love Me, you will obey what I command you. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor (holy spirit) to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see Me anymore, but you will see Me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in the Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 You could ask them that if the Holy Spirit is guiding Christians, why are there so many denominations each with their own separate and often conflicting interpretations of the Bible. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 This whole topic makes me feel so powerless. Today I made a very mature christian choke on her beliefs, it was awful to see a woman whom I looked to for answers when I was a christian stumble for words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymenaeusAlexander Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This idea that they are been lead by the holy spirit is something that I don't know how to combat and in the end I get spirit slammed. It will always come back to some subjective confirmation and you just can't argue with that. You can only try to create doubt in that experience and appeal to the similar supposedly confirming experiences of others that led those people to different conclusions as others have suggested. For example, "the Holy Spirit led me to believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet", etc. You could ask them that if the Holy Spirit is guiding Christians, why are there so many denominations each with their own separate and often conflicting interpretations of the Bible. They will likely just appeal to the noetic effects of sin on the human mind. This, of course, only pushes the problem back a step. The follow-up then is to ask them how people are supposed to tell the difference between being led by the Holy Spirit rather than being deceived by their own fallen human mind. They might look to the Bible for confirmation, but then we're back to asking how they know they have the correct interpretation of the Bible, at which point the cycle repeats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I once asked my pastor how every person in the whole world could possess the 'holy spirit' at the exact same time? His answer came from the book of John where jesus tells his disciples that if he does not die, he cannot leave them with the holy sprit that will lead them all to 'truth' and understanding. I believed that answer. It satisfied me. John 14:15 Jesus says, "If you love Me, you will obey what I command you. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor (holy spirit) to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see Me anymore, but you will see Me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in the Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. I asked my pastor about the part where it says, "I am in the father, you are in me and I am in you" because it was similar to my understanding of Zen or non-dual awareness. In other words you and me and everything and everyone are God...there is no separation ...this made him uncomfortable so he sent me off looking at other unrelated scripture. Gots to maintain authority over the wallets of the sheep. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 This whole topic makes me feel so powerless. Today I made a very mature christian choke on her beliefs, it was awful to see a woman whom I looked to for answers when I was a christian stumble for words. One of the lay pastors told me one time to answer challenging questions to Christianity: "That's fine for you , but I believe Jesus [and the usual Xian nonsense]." lol. In other words, damn your logic, I choose delusion. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddick Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This idea that they are been lead by the holy spirit is something that I don't know how to combat and in the end I get spirit slammed. "That's odd, [Name of Christian Combatant], God put it on my heart to do/say/think exactly the opposite..." "Today, God put it on my heart to tell you, [Name of Christian Combatant] that you have been led astray by the Great Deceiver...let's pray against this right now and ask for forgiveness..." :-) Fun to twist them around a little. Give them some doubt. That's actually quite funny, reminds me of something that happened to me, it was Christmas eve 2011, i work in I.T. as a sub contractor. Anyway i was upgrading this businesses network/servers, this business happened to be all born again christians. anyway back to Christmas Eve, i was in my car driving from site to site, finishing up my work, i get a call from this businesses owner, he says to me "what are you doing tomorrow?" i reply "spending time with my family and friends" he replys "Why don't you come to church, the holy spirit is compelling me to share the gospel with you." to which i reply "oh ok, well the holy spirit is compelling me to hang up on you." and he didn't call back. This guy was straight out of the Ray Comfort brainwashing school, real annoying prick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This idea that they are been lead by the holy spirit is something that I don't know how to combat and in the end I get spirit slammed. "That's odd, [Name of Christian Combatant], God put it on my heart to do/say/think exactly the opposite..." "Today, God put it on my heart to tell you, [Name of Christian Combatant] that you have been led astray by the Great Deceiver...let's pray against this right now and ask for forgiveness..." :-) Fun to twist them around a little. Give them some doubt. That's actually quite funny, reminds me of something that happened to me, it was Christmas eve 2011, i work in I.T. as a sub contractor. Anyway i was upgrading this businesses network/servers, this business happened to be all born again christians. anyway back to Christmas Eve, i was in my car driving from site to site, finishing up my work, i get a call from this businesses owner, he says to me "what are you doing tomorrow?" i reply "spending time with my family and friends" he replys "Why don't you come to church, the holy spirit is compelling me to share the gospel with you." to which i reply "oh ok, well the holy spirit is compelling me to hang up on you." and he didn't call back. This guy was straight out of the Ray Comfort brainwashing school, real annoying prick. He may as well be saying tinkerbell is compelling me to share the gospel of queen clarion with you. http://www.quibblo.com/quiz/emxsRE8/How-well-do-you-know-Tinkerbell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddick Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This idea that they are been lead by the holy spirit is something that I don't know how to combat and in the end I get spirit slammed. "That's odd, [Name of Christian Combatant], God put it on my heart to do/say/think exactly the opposite..." "Today, God put it on my heart to tell you, [Name of Christian Combatant] that you have been led astray by the Great Deceiver...let's pray against this right now and ask for forgiveness..." :-) Fun to twist them around a little. Give them some doubt. That's actually quite funny, reminds me of something that happened to me, it was Christmas eve 2011, i work in I.T. as a sub contractor. Anyway i was upgrading this businesses network/servers, this business happened to be all born again christians. anyway back to Christmas Eve, i was in my car driving from site to site, finishing up my work, i get a call from this businesses owner, he says to me "what are you doing tomorrow?" i reply "spending time with my family and friends" he replys "Why don't you come to church, the holy spirit is compelling me to share the gospel with you." to which i reply "oh ok, well the holy spirit is compelling me to hang up on you." and he didn't call back. This guy was straight out of the Ray Comfort brainwashing school, real annoying prick. He may as well be saying tinkerbell is compelling me to share the gospel of queen clarion with you. http://www.quibblo.com/quiz/emxsRE8/How-well-do-you-know-Tinkerbell I just said Holy Spirit to him, cause he can't say the Holy Spirit wasn't compelling me to hang up on him, even though it was just me hanging up on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This idea that they are been lead by the holy spirit is something that I don't know how to combat and in the end I get spirit slammed. "That's odd, [Name of Christian Combatant], God put it on my heart to do/say/think exactly the opposite..." "Today, God put it on my heart to tell you, [Name of Christian Combatant] that you have been led astray by the Great Deceiver...let's pray against this right now and ask for forgiveness..." :-) Fun to twist them around a little. Give them some doubt. That's actually quite funny, reminds me of something that happened to me, it was Christmas eve 2011, i work in I.T. as a sub contractor. Anyway i was upgrading this businesses network/servers, this business happened to be all born again christians. anyway back to Christmas Eve, i was in my car driving from site to site, finishing up my work, i get a call from this businesses owner, he says to me "what are you doing tomorrow?" i reply "spending time with my family and friends" he replys "Why don't you come to church, the holy spirit is compelling me to share the gospel with you." to which i reply "oh ok, well the holy spirit is compelling me to hang up on you." and he didn't call back. This guy was straight out of the Ray Comfort brainwashing school, real annoying prick. He may as well be saying tinkerbell is compelling me to share the gospel of queen clarion with you. http://www.quibblo.com/quiz/emxsRE8/How-well-do-you-know-Tinkerbell I just said Holy Spirit to him, cause he can't say the Holy Spirit wasn't compelling me to hang up on him, even though it was just me hanging up on me. I knew that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This idea that they are been lead by the holy spirit is something that I don't know how to combat and in the end I get spirit slammed. "That's odd, [Name of Christian Combatant], God put it on my heart to do/say/think exactly the opposite..." "Today, God put it on my heart to tell you, [Name of Christian Combatant] that you have been led astray by the Great Deceiver...let's pray against this right now and ask for forgiveness..." :-) Fun to twist them around a little. Give them some doubt. That's actually quite funny, reminds me of something that happened to me, it was Christmas eve 2011, i work in I.T. as a sub contractor. Anyway i was upgrading this businesses network/servers, this business happened to be all born again christians. anyway back to Christmas Eve, i was in my car driving from site to site, finishing up my work, i get a call from this businesses owner, he says to me "what are you doing tomorrow?" i reply "spending time with my family and friends" he replys "Why don't you come to church, the holy spirit is compelling me to share the gospel with you." to which i reply "oh ok, well the holy spirit is compelling me to hang up on you." and he didn't call back. This guy was straight out of the Ray Comfort brainwashing school, real annoying prick. I think something like that is pretty much my standard comeback....anything I want to do prefixed by "God told me to..." "That's really interesting, Mr Christian, because God told me that I should avoid all churches and speak to him directly." "God told me I should not give the church money but buy alcohol and cigarettes instead." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted April 14, 2013 Share Posted April 14, 2013 A question I ask and something I need to know more than anything about christians, is how do you get through a christians holy spirit defense. This idea that they are been lead by the holy spirit is something that I don't know how to combat and in the end I get spirit slammed. "That's odd, [Name of Christian Combatant], God put it on my heart to do/say/think exactly the opposite..." "Today, God put it on my heart to tell you, [Name of Christian Combatant] that you have been led astray by the Great Deceiver...let's pray against this right now and ask for forgiveness..." :-) Fun to twist them around a little. Give them some doubt. That's actually quite funny, reminds me of something that happened to me, it was Christmas eve 2011, i work in I.T. as a sub contractor. Anyway i was upgrading this businesses network/servers, this business happened to be all born again christians. anyway back to Christmas Eve, i was in my car driving from site to site, finishing up my work, i get a call from this businesses owner, he says to me "what are you doing tomorrow?" i reply "spending time with my family and friends" he replys "Why don't you come to church, the holy spirit is compelling me to share the gospel with you." to which i reply "oh ok, well the holy spirit is compelling me to hang up on you." and he didn't call back. This guy was straight out of the Ray Comfort brainwashing school, real annoying prick. I think something like that is pretty much my standard comeback....anything I want to do prefixed by "God told me to..." "That's really interesting, Mr Christian, because God told me that I should avoid all churches and speak to him directly." "God told me I should not give the church money but buy alcohol and cigarettes instead." Could work if you could prove god wanted you to do those things with there big book of lies, cozz if you did say that you would be bashed with a little bit of the moral B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 I am starting to think that the so-called Holy Spirit is 1. A term to describe a neurochemical event within the body and mind that causes a certain 'buzz' . Hence, it is unreliable as a gauge for Truth. 2. An excuse or manipulation cloaked as spirituality. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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