Christianity And Sin Issues

[Guest nat]

I have been reading a lot about the Christian perspective on sin. In all, there are as many positions on this matter as there are christian denominations. The conflict revolves around the competing teachings of christian salvation vs christian values. Whatever position you take, you can find an NT verse that supports it, so any resolution to the contradiction is very evasive. The questions will always remain, is there guaranteed salvation? Do you need to repent? How good do we need to be? Is it enough if we just don't really want to sin? Is it possible for a Christian to sin? Is it possible for a christian not to sin? Etc.

1. I find it troubling that Christianity is so unclear on this and other matters.

2. Whatever position you take, I (as a Jew) feel that God can do it without Jesus.

3. You often find on this and many other issues that Jesus indicated one thing, while Paul indicated another. Many have said that Christianity is the religion of Paul and not Jesus. Some say that Paul did a better job of understanding and defining Jesus more than Jesus himself. Some believe that Paul was the anti-christ. In any case, it does not sit well. I still find the various theological questions and various takes on them to be fascinating. 

 

Hey, I just noticed they are calling me an authentic christian believer!

 

That is not true. I am a proud Jew, thank you.

[boftx]

All things considered, while almost everyone here who is not a believer would agree with you in large measure, it would helpful if you could provide us with the view from your perspective as a Jew.on this issue. I think it would also be germane to some extent to know if you are Orthodox or Reformed, since so far as I know there are important differences (though I could obviously be wrong on that.)

[Geezer]

Bart Ehrman put it this way, the religion of Jesus became the religion about Jesus. After years of study I'm now convinced Paul didn't invent or create Christianity. I think the evidence indicates Paul was simply attempting to reform Judaism and his efforts morphed into something completely different from his original intent.

[florduh]

ברוך הבא

 

Most Christians would agree that the believer can and does still sin, as it is our nature. The difference is Jesus has atoned for those sins.

 

Many ex-Christians would agree that the Christians stole the Hebrew god and molded it to their own use much as the Hebrews did with the earlier Pagan gods, particularly those of the Canaanites.

 

Christianity is the religion invented by Paul. Jesus was a Jew (according to legend).

[Guest nat]

ברוך הבא

 

Most Christians would agree that the believer can and does still sin, as it is our nature. The difference is Jesus has atoned for those sins.

 

Many ex-Christians would agree that the Christians stole the Hebrew god and molded it to their own use much as the Hebrews did with the earlier Pagan gods, particularly those of the Canaanites.

 

Christianity is the religion invented by Paul. Jesus was a Jew (according to legend).

Most christians think that the believer can sin, but not all. In any case, it is not clear if the atonement for sin is absolute or not. Does one need to repent sin? Can one be completely evil and believe in Jesus and be saved? These are serious issues. The various christian denominations hold different opinions on this matter. And the new testament is unclear and contradictory, especially between Jesus and Paul. 

[florduh]

 

ברוך הבא

 

Most Christians would agree that the believer can and does still sin, as it is our nature. The difference is Jesus has atoned for those sins.

 

Many ex-Christians would agree that the Christians stole the Hebrew god and molded it to their own use much as the Hebrews did with the earlier Pagan gods, particularly those of the Canaanites.

 

Christianity is the religion invented by Paul. Jesus was a Jew (according to legend).

Most christians think that the believer can sin, but not all. In any case, it is not clear if the atonement for sin is absolute or not. Does one need to repent sin? Can one be completely evil and believe in Jesus and be saved? These are serious issues. The various christian denominations hold different opinions on this matter. And the new testament is unclear and contradictory, especially between Jesus and Paul. 

 

As I said, most Christians.....

 

We all can agree that Christians can't agree. It's obvious that the Bible is rife with inconsistency and error from beginning to end. We don't seem to have much to discuss beyond the obvious. You understand the position of the Ex-Christian perfectly as far as I can tell.

[Guest nat]

Some wanted to know my position on sin. After careful study of the Talmud, here is my take as an Orthodox Jew. Note that i am not making this up. It is based mostly on passages from the Talmud, I am just not going to quote my sources in this forum.

 

One needs to repent sin in order to get rid of it. Righteous people can atone for other people's sin, but it is not clear cut how this works and to what extent. My take on it is that it mostly resolves communal responsibility, but not personal responsibility,  at least not fully.

 

To be considered righteous, you have to be more good than bad. You don't have to be completely good. But you still need to get atoned for all sin in order to go to "heaven." 

 

Repentance often involves suffering to fully atone for sin. When it requires suffering, you either suffer in this world or in the next (hell). The righteous suffer in this world, the not righteous in the next.

 

If a righteous person dies, and didn't repent a certain sin or sins, he will need to repent after he dies. And which righteous person wouldn't? A righteous person does not go to hell, because he already had his hell in this world.

 

A non righteous person has to both repent and suffer hell, because unlike the righteous, he did not suffer for his sins in this world. After the non righteous person repents in hell, he joins the righteous.

 

Jewsih hell is most often not permanent (unlike christian hell).

 

The very evil won't repent even in hell. They are given any deserved reward in this world, and are destroyed from the world to come.

[Guest nat]

Let me add that is the way it is for the most part, but it cannot fully encompass god's judgement, which takes different forms at different times and for different people. 

 

That is why you will also find evil people who suffer and righteous people who don't. There is always a mix of various forms of judgement depending on Gods wisdom.

[florduh]

Let me add that is the way it is for the most part, but it cannot fully encompass god's judgement, which takes different forms at different times and for different people. 

 

That is why you will also find evil people who suffer and righteous people who don't. There is always a mix of various forms of judgement depending on Gods wisdom.

In other words, life goes on in random fashion exactly the same as if there were no gods running the show.

[Guest nat]

 

Let me add that is the way it is for the most part, but it cannot fully encompass god's judgement, which takes different forms at different times and for different people. 

 

That is why you will also find evil people who suffer and righteous people who don't. There is always a mix of various forms of judgement depending on Gods wisdom.

In other words, life goes on in random fashion exactly the same as if there were no gods running the show.

 

Random enough that God remains hidden. But no, not completely random. And actually, not random at all. In Kabbalah, God represents himself in variouis ways. Each way has it's own specific way of judging. I presented the main form for our time. I did not elaborate on the other forms. In one of God's forms, the judgement is the opposite, that the righteous prosper and the wicked suffer. In another form, everyone prospers as long as they are nice to each other. In a fourth form the wicked are destroyed. It is very complex, just as life and physics is very complex. But it is not random.

[florduh]

But it is not random.

 

 

 

All evidence and unbiased observation indicates otherwise. One might as well ascribe the random events of life to the position of the stars, the desires of Vishnu, Xenu or Isis. People are uncomfortable with randomness so they make up reasons to justify the less than desirable outcomes and events. YHWH is just one of many such unfounded beliefs.

[Guest nat]

I wasn't proving that it is not random. I was giving the Jewish understanding of how God deals with sin. And of that we know just some general outlines.

[Positivist]

Judaism makes waaaaay more sense to me than Paul-ianity or Christianity, and always has. I appreciate the Jewish worldview way more than the Pauline or Christian one. But I was raised on Jesus, and it's hard to let go of that 'fire insurance'. I thought of becoming Jewish many times; it's the status of women in Judaism that always stopped me.

 

I'm glad you're here at Ex-C, nat. I find your views most refreshing.

[florduh]

I thought of becoming Jewish many times; it's the status of women in Judaism that always stopped me.

 

 

 

I see the attraction. I seemed to know mostly Jews in high school. My girlfriend was Jewish and her brother was my best friend. I was close to the whole extended family and active at the Jewish Community Center for two summers. Even I, at that age, felt I would be comfortable in the Jewish community - some of the best people I've ever met. Beat the hell out of the folks at the church my father dragged us to. There is a wide range of Jewish beliefs and religiosity, but at the core the religion is still misogyny and fake history and wishful thinking. Like the vast majority of nominal Christians, though, few take it very seriously. It seems to be mostly about traditions, like with the Catholics. There are atheist Jews so just maybe....maybe.................. nah!

[RipVanWinkle]

Are you getting Jewish beliefs from the OT? If so, "random" is much too kind a word for god. bill

[Guest nat]

Judaism makes waaaaay more sense to me than Paul-ianity or Christianity, and always has. I appreciate the Jewish worldview way more than the Pauline or Christian one. But I was raised on Jesus, and it's hard to let go of that 'fire insurance'. I thought of becoming Jewish many times; it's the status of women in Judaism that always stopped me.

 

I'm glad you're here at Ex-C, nat. I find your views most refreshing.

Judaism does not require being Jewish. Judaism was always better than christianity regarding women. No it is not up to date in the orthodox world, but it is a highly complicated matter, just like life is not perfect, you have rich and poor. Who is better?

 

For the most part women are well regarded in Judaism, but they don't get all the outward privileges.

The biggest problems are caused by the attraction between men and women which screws everything up. 

[boftx]

....

 

The biggest problems are caused by the attraction between men and women which screws everything up. 

 

 

You, sir, have a talent for understatement. Not to mention that your statement is true no matter what religion (or lack thereof) is under discussion.

[Positivist]

 

Judaism makes waaaaay more sense to me than Paul-ianity or Christianity, and always has. I appreciate the Jewish worldview way more than the Pauline or Christian one. But I was raised on Jesus, and it's hard to let go of that 'fire insurance'. I thought of becoming Jewish many times; it's the status of women in Judaism that always stopped me.

 

I'm glad you're here at Ex-C, nat. I find your views most refreshing.

Judaism does not require being Jewish. Judaism was always better than christianity regarding women. No it is not up to date in the orthodox world, but it is a highly complicated matter, just like life is not perfect, you have rich and poor. Who is better?

 

For the most part women are well regarded in Judaism, but they don't get all the outward privileges.

The biggest problems are caused by the attraction between men and women which screws everything up. 

 

 

So, both genders are equal, but one is more equal than the other. I get it.

 

I disagree that the biggest problems are caused by the attraction between men and women; the greatest beauty is caused by this. There is nothing better than both genders working together.

 

I have a hunch that this issue will represent an impasse for you and I, so I wish you well in your quest here.

 

Cheers.

[Guest nat]

 

 

Judaism makes waaaaay more sense to me than Paul-ianity or Christianity, and always has. I appreciate the Jewish worldview way more than the Pauline or Christian one. But I was raised on Jesus, and it's hard to let go of that 'fire insurance'. I thought of becoming Jewish many times; it's the status of women in Judaism that always stopped me.

 

I'm glad you're here at Ex-C, nat. I find your views most refreshing.

Judaism does not require being Jewish. Judaism was always better than christianity regarding women. No it is not up to date in the orthodox world, but it is a highly complicated matter, just like life is not perfect, you have rich and poor. Who is better?

 

For the most part women are well regarded in Judaism, but they don't get all the outward privileges.

The biggest problems are caused by the attraction between men and women which screws everything up. 

 

 

So, both genders are equal, but one is more equal than the other. I get it.

 

I disagree that the biggest problems are caused by the attraction between men and women; the greatest beauty is caused by this. There is nothing better than both genders working together.

 

I have a hunch that this issue will represent an impasse for you and I, so I wish you well in your quest here.

 

Cheers.

 

Equal worth, but unfortunately not equal roles or rights. But like the rich and the poor, who is better?

Yes, the attraction between men and women is the cause for the greatest beauty, but also the cause for big problems. Men know this much more than women do. 

[boftx]

Yes, the attraction between men and women is the cause for the greatest beauty, but also the cause for big problems. Men know this much more than women do.

 

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Please, everyone, give some rep to that post

 

I damned near spewed my drink as I read that. Say what you want, nat has his head screwed on tight.