Guest nat Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 Note: The site is calling me an authentic christian believer. I am not!!! I am a proud Jew!!! Infinity and zero are opposites, but both are transcendental opposite forces, the eternal versus the void. Mathematically, infinity and zero have unusual qualities. Unlike standard numbers, zero times or divided by any number is still zero, and infinity times or divided by any number is still infinity. What happens when you divide by zero? The closer the denominator gets to zero, the bigger the result. Division by 0 seems to produce infinity. Conventional mathematics says that division by zero is undefined. Infinity, likewise, cannot be defined, so undefined and equals infinity may actually be the same thing. There is more of a consensus, though, that any number divided by infinity equals zero. Since 6/3=2 and 6/2=3, it is logical that any number/infinity=0 and any number/0=infinity. There is an exception to the 0*x=0 and infinity*x=infinity rule. Since any number/infinity=0, and any number/0=infinity, it follows that infinity*0=any number. And since any number*0=0 and any number*infinity=infinity, it follows that 0/0 and infinity/infinity=any number. Conventional mathematics indeed considers these to be undetermined, meaning that it could be anything. What does all this mean? God is the infinite. The opposite of God is nothing. Judaism teaches that God made this world from nothing. God*0=all things. And that is the mathematical proof to God. Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites

boftx 219 Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 For many programmers the term "undefined" is the same thing as NULL. So to equate God to an undefined (undetermined) result can also be seen to say that "God" is a NULL concept. 5 Link to post Share on other sites

par4dcourse 1,042 Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 What does all this mean? God is the infinite. The opposite of God is nothing. Judaism teaches that God made this world from nothing. God*0=all things. And that is the mathematical proof to God. Thank you. And there's the leap from math to a huge assumption. No proof. Welcome to the site, btw. 2 Link to post Share on other sites

Guest nat Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 Null is zero. Undefined is not 0. The closer a number gets to 0, when you divide by it, the higher the number gets. When you divide by 0, the number is so high it is infinite or undefined and the furthest thing from 0. Link to post Share on other sites

boftx 219 Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 Sorry, NULL is not 0, it is undefined, or undetermined, in the context I present. One has only to look at how many databases treat the terms "0", "" and NULL to see that. It is true that in many cases one can consider NULL (or undefined) to be the logical equivalent of "FALSE" but not always. I'd have to refresh my memory on it, but I also believe that set theory makes a distinction between "0" and NULL. Link to post Share on other sites

Guest nat Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 What does all this mean? God is the infinite. The opposite of God is nothing. Judaism teaches that God made this world from nothing. God*0=all things. And that is the mathematical proof to God. Thank you. And there's the leap from math to a huge assumption. No proof. Welcome to the site, btw. The mathematics are there and consistent. The proof is that an infinite thing (or being) times nothing equals all things. This explains how all matter came into existence. Something infinite combined with zero brought about all things. A believer can easy substitute God for infinity. If you don't want to do that, you can call it what you want, but it is still compelling. Link to post Share on other sites

Guest nat Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 Sorry, NULL is not 0, it is undefined, or undetermined, in the context I present. One has only to look at how many databases treat the terms "0", "" and NULL to see that. It is true that in many cases one can consider NULL (or undefined) to be the logical equivalent of "FALSE" but not always. I'd have to refresh my memory on it, but I also believe that set theory makes a distinction between "0" and NULL. Ok, we will never understand infinity or God, and if Null is undefined, we will never understand that as well. Undefined means that we cannot define or understand it. It should be humbling that math proves to us that we cannot understand something. Link to post Share on other sites

Guest nat Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 BTW, thanks for the replies. I hope this site will change this authentic christian thing, which i am not. Link to post Share on other sites

ConureDelSol 384 Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 I think you have the Authentic Christian Believer tag because we don't have an Authentic Jew tag. We aren't used to having other Abrahamic faiths around these parts! Welcome! As I am terrible at math, I shall now bow out of this conversation... Link to post Share on other sites

boftx 219 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 I would suppose that a Jew would find being tagged as an "Authentic Christian Believer" is on a par with being called a Gentile by the Mormon church..I suppose that the former is possible (Jews for Jesus, etc.) but the latter might be a good example of the concept of NULL Link to post Share on other sites

Guest Babylonian Dream Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 The problem is, you're using 0 and infinity alongside assumptions, neither of which are tested nor testable. You didn't use math. I see no equations and nothing that makes any sense. At least not in the way you say it does. Christian or Jew, you're still a believer. We don't have a tag for jews though as seperate. We usually have christians around here. Welcome! I sincerely hope you come up with the proof you seek. IT would be interesting to see that occur. 2 Link to post Share on other sites

Overcame Faith 1,285 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 Note: The site is calling me an authentic christian believer. I am not!!! I am a proud Jew!!! You are obviously not an authentic Christian believer. Perhaps you could PM a moderator and ask the title to be changed. By the way, I'll tell you what I would personally be interested in hearing from you (and I suspect others would be interested, too) is whether you have ever considered the Christian assertion that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah and, if you have considered it, the reasons why you reject the notion. I would really love to hear an authentic Jewish first hand account of that. Welcome to ExC. 4 Link to post Share on other sites

boftx 219 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 Another problem comes up when one brings in the Aleph numbers which identify different orders of infinite magnitude. The statements made in the OP for infinity and zero don't apply the same way. In particular, the number 2 raised to the Aleph-0 power is Aleph-1, which is not contained in the lowest infinite order of Aleph-0. On a side note, a lot of the problems we have with infinity is that we simply are not able to comprehend it. I can't help but wonder if quantum computers will change this. To take that thought further, what would be the implications if quantum computers could deal with infinity? At the very least one would have to think about what it means for a finite entity (Man) to create something capable of understanding the infinite. 2 Link to post Share on other sites

midniterider 5,052 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 Note: The site is calling me an authentic christian believer. I am not!!! I am a proud Jew!!! Infinity and zero are opposites, but both are transcendental opposite forces, the eternal versus the void. Mathematically, infinity and zero have unusual qualities. Unlike standard numbers, zero times or divided by any number is still zero, and infinity times or divided by any number is still infinity. What happens when you divide by zero? The closer the denominator gets to zero, the bigger the result. Division by 0 seems to produce infinity. Conventional mathematics says that division by zero is undefined. Infinity, likewise, cannot be defined, so undefined and equals infinity may actually be the same thing. There is more of a consensus, though, that any number divided by infinity equals zero. Since 6/3=2 and 6/2=3, it is logical that any number/infinity=0 and any number/0=infinity. There is an exception to the 0*x=0 and infinity*x=infinity rule. Since any number/infinity=0, and any number/0=infinity, it follows that infinity*0=any number. And since any number*0=0 and any number*infinity=infinity, it follows that 0/0 and infinity/infinity=any number. Conventional mathematics indeed considers these to be undetermined, meaning that it could be anything. What does all this mean? God is the infinite. The opposite of God is nothing. Judaism teaches that God made this world from nothing. God*0=all things. And that is the mathematical proof to God. Thank you. Now that we have mathematical proof I'm ready for a personal visitation from him. 1 Link to post Share on other sites

midniterider 5,052 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 Sorta weird but I did some calculations on Excel.... It said God + Church + Scripture = Baloney 5 Link to post Share on other sites

♦ ficino ♦ 1,680 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 Note: The site is calling me an authentic christian believer. I am not!!! I am a proud Jew!!! Infinity and zero are opposites, but both are transcendental opposite forces, the eternal versus the void. Mathematically, infinity and zero have unusual qualities. Unlike standard numbers, zero times or divided by any number is still zero, and infinity times or divided by any number is still infinity. What happens when you divide by zero? The closer the denominator gets to zero, the bigger the result. Division by 0 seems to produce infinity. Conventional mathematics says that division by zero is undefined. Infinity, likewise, cannot be defined, so undefined and equals infinity may actually be the same thing. There is more of a consensus, though, that any number divided by infinity equals zero. Since 6/3=2 and 6/2=3, it is logical that any number/infinity=0 and any number/0=infinity. There is an exception to the 0*x=0 and infinity*x=infinity rule. Since any number/infinity=0, and any number/0=infinity, it follows that infinity*0=any number. And since any number*0=0 and any number*infinity=infinity, it follows that 0/0 and infinity/infinity=any number. Conventional mathematics indeed considers these to be undetermined, meaning that it could be anything. What does all this mean? God is the infinite. The opposite of God is nothing. Judaism teaches that God made this world from nothing. God*0=all things. And that is the mathematical proof to God. Thank you. Stuff in red: big assumptions. Not a proof. 3 Link to post Share on other sites

Guest nat Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 Note: The site is calling me an authentic christian believer. I am not!!! I am a proud Jew!!! You are obviously not an authentic Christian believer. Perhaps you could PM a moderator and ask the title to be changed. By the way, I'll tell you what I would personally be interested in hearing from you (and I suspect others would be interested, too) is whether you have ever considered the Christian assertion that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah and, if you have considered it, the reasons why you reject the notion. I would really love to hear an authentic Jewish first hand account of that. Welcome to ExC. For my first hand account about Jesus etc, look at this: A Jew's Take On Jesus, Paul And Christianity Link to post Share on other sites

boftx 219 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 ... What does all this mean? God is the infinite. The opposite of God is nothing. Judaism teaches that God made this world from nothing. God*0=all things. And that is the mathematical proof to God. Thank you. Stuff in red: big assumptions. Not a proof. I must disagree with ficino in one regard, that "Judaism teaches that God made this world from nothing." is an assumption. The idea that "God" did that might be an assumption, but the statement that Judaism teaches that is not. Be that as it may, it in no way detracts from ficino's statement that the two remaining assumptions do not constitute a proof. On a side note, like others have already said, I find it interesting and quite probably refreshing to have a Jew take part in these discussions. Link to post Share on other sites

Bhim 893 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 Note: The site is calling me an authentic christian believer. I am not!!! I am a proud Jew!!! That's quite unfortunate. It seems you're taking it in good humor, though I wouldn't blame a Jew for being terribly offended by being confused for a Christian. Anyway, I'll say right off the bat that I have a highly favorable opinion of Judaism (and an equally disfavorable view of Christianity); I hope we can have some interesting conversations about the interplay between Judaism and Christianity. But I have to say, I think I'd prefer a discussion on religion to one on your mathematical proof... Infinity and zero are opposites, but both are transcendental opposite forces, the eternal versus the void. Mathematically, infinity and zero have unusual qualities. Unlike standard numbers, zero times or divided by any number is still zero, and infinity times or divided by any number is still infinity. What happens when you divide by zero? The closer the denominator gets to zero, the bigger the result. Division by 0 seems to produce infinity. Conventional mathematics says that division by zero is undefined. Infinity, likewise, cannot be defined, so undefined and equals infinity may actually be the same thing. There is more of a consensus, though, that any number divided by infinity equals zero. Since 6/3=2 and 6/2=3, it is logical that any number/infinity=0 and any number/0=infinity. There is an exception to the 0*x=0 and infinity*x=infinity rule. Since any number/infinity=0, and any number/0=infinity, it follows that infinity*0=any number. And since any number*0=0 and any number*infinity=infinity, it follows that 0/0 and infinity/infinity=any number. Conventional mathematics indeed considers these to be undetermined, meaning that it could be anything. What does all this mean? God is the infinite. The opposite of God is nothing. Judaism teaches that God made this world from nothing. God*0=all things. And that is the mathematical proof to God. Thank you. While I believe in God (but not Jesus), I'd have to respectfully say that I don't see how this is proof of anything. At best it's an allegory drawn from mathematics. And I'm not even sure the mathematics is right. You say that division by successively smaller numbers yields larger results, and therefore division by zero returns infinity. But what if you keep dividing by successively smaller negative numbers (by "smaller" I mean closer to zero)? Then you'd get larger negative results. And a negative infinity is about as far away from an infinity as you can get. Heck, you could naively take the average of the two results and say that division by zero gives you zero. And I don't follow your logic at all in saying that infinity times zero equals any number. First of all, "infinity" isn't even a number. If you give me any number, I can tell you a larger number. How, then, do you get to infinity? So if by infinity you just mean "some arbitrarily large number," I can safely say that any number times zero will always just be zero. So even if your last line of logic were sound (I don't think it is), you need to fix the rest of your proof first. Anyway like I said, you might want to table the mathematical proofs of God for a later time, I'd be far more interested to hear a Jew's take on evangelical Christianity. Link to post Share on other sites

Bhim 893 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 For my first hand account about Jesus etc, look at this: A Jew's Take On Jesus, Paul And Christianity Wow, that was fast! Link to post Share on other sites

Guest nat Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 I should have been a little bit more careful on how i phrased my post, especially in this kind of forum. My point was not to completely prove mathematically that God exists. My point was to provide the mathematical equation upon which it can be said that god exists. The equations are there, and i can back them up mathematically. No, I won't be able to debate this on an advanced math level, just standard math. Yes, to jump the results into God etc is an application, and it can be debated. But it is nonetheless a mathematical basis for the argument for God, and it also contains some compelling points in of itself. The fact that infinity is mathematically undefinable is compelling. The fact that infinity times 0 is undetermined, meaning it can be anything, is compelling. Everyone can draw their own conclusions. But the mathematical basis for the theological discussions are there. My main point is that infinity times nothing is undetermined. Undetermined is different from undefined. Undefined means we don't understand it. Undetermined means it can be anything. science never explained how matter got there in the first place. It can't have been infinitely there, because infinity is not dividable, and matter is. The compelling argument is that infinity times nothing brought about all things. So call it part proof, part explanation, and part application. Sorry if I dissapointed. Link to post Share on other sites

Overcame Faith 1,285 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 Note: The site is calling me an authentic christian believer. I am not!!! I am a proud Jew!!! You are obviously not an authentic Christian believer. Perhaps you could PM a moderator and ask the title to be changed. By the way, I'll tell you what I would personally be interested in hearing from you (and I suspect others would be interested, too) is whether you have ever considered the Christian assertion that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah and, if you have considered it, the reasons why you reject the notion. I would really love to hear an authentic Jewish first hand account of that. Welcome to ExC. For my first hand account about Jesus etc, look at this:A Jew's Take On Jesus, Paul And Christianity Thank-you. I will read it and comment. Link to post Share on other sites

Bhim 893 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 I should have been a little bit more careful on how i phrased my post, especially in this kind of forum. My point was not to completely prove mathematically that God exists. My point was to provide the mathematical equation upon which it can be said that god exists. The equations are there, and i can back them up mathematically. No, I won't be able to debate this on an advanced math level, just standard math. Yes, to jump the results into God etc is an application, and it can be debated. But it is nonetheless a mathematical basis for the argument for God, and it also contains some compelling points in of itself. The fact that infinity is mathematically undefinable is compelling. The fact that infinity times 0 is undetermined, meaning it can be anything, is compelling. Everyone can draw their own conclusions. But the mathematical basis for the theological discussions are there. My main point is that infinity times nothing is undetermined. Undetermined is different from undefined. Undefined means we don't understand it. Undetermined means it can be anything. science never explained how matter got there in the first place. It can't have been infinitely there, because infinity is not dividable, and matter is. The compelling argument is that infinity times nothing brought about all things. So call it part proof, part explanation, and part application. Sorry if I dissapointed. But you see, I can debate the mathematics at the advanced level. And the problem is that your math is wrong. Don't take this as a personal slight, I'm just making a statement of fact. Division by zero doesn't equal infinity, because infinity isn't a number. Multiplication of infinity by zero does not equal "any number," since again, infinity isn't a number. In fact, your statement that "infinity is mathematically undefinable" is not correct. Mathematicians don't define infinity as a number, it's just a placeholder for allowing some quantity to increase without bound. If you're working in a real number system (or even integers or natural numbers), the very idea of infinity as a number is unnecessary, because there are infinitely many numbers. Whatever number you give me, I can name one larger, so there is no "last" number in any of these number systems. In fact the idea of infinity is usually only useful when defining limits of functions. As for the idea of some of these quantities being undetermined rather than undefined, this is also incorrect. Any high school calculus textbook will contain the phrase "indefinite forms" in which cases of infinity/infinity, 0/0, etc. are discussed. I can evaluate a function at infinity, and get a specific number. In fact I can make that number whatever I want. For example, given the function f(x)=2*(x+1)/x, I can take the limit as x goes to infinity, get a quantity of the form infinity/infinity, and yet return a value of 2. If I instead consider f(x) = 9*(x+1)/x, the value at infinity is 9. Here are two cases of effectively dividing infinity by infinity, and getting a finite number. Still think these forms are undetermined? The problem here arises from confusing infinity for an actual number. It's just a placeholder for the phrase "as some variable increases without bound." It really isn't that profound. 2 Link to post Share on other sites

boftx 219 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 Bhim, Would you agree with the statement that there is confusion between "infinity" and "the infinite" taking place? I seem to recall having the thought that "God" is infinity because of almost the exact same reasons that nat gave when I was in my first algebra class way back when. Link to post Share on other sites

Bhim 893 Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 I suppose that may be a problem here. "The Infinite" the strikes me as more of a philosophical concept, whereas infinity is a very well defined mathematical tool. This may be a case of wrongly spiritualizing the mathematical infinity. Link to post Share on other sites

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