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Goodbye Jesus

A Jew's Take On Jesus, Paul And Christianity


Guest nat

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1. That is what my soul tells me to do, and I am not one to deny it. 2. God gave me some personal hints.

A person has to be honest and humble and follow what truth tells him. Not much more that can be asked for.

I'm confused. Are you saying god has given you personal insights into truth?
yes

That's exactly what my Mormon friends tell me: they have special revealed truth.

 

Sigh.

 

Just when I thought you were different from the other Truth Claimers who come here.

or mohamad, or david jones, or some of us here who used to think we heard from god's firect line

 

Yup, I heard from god too. Special messages about truth, and everything!

 

Well, isn't that special?

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Just when I thought you [nat] were different from the other Truth Claimers who come here.

 

 

I'd cut nat some slack. Anyone who adheres to an organized religion will claim to know the truth, it goes with the territory. That said, nat's religion isn't big on gathering in new converts, and in some ways, discourages it. I have no problem with that.

 

 

Well, perhaps I'm just jealous that nat has certainty, albeit misguided. I had certainty, too, as do my Christian, Mormon and ex-Mormon friends. I miss having "certainty" that I am right and that I've got Truth by the Tail.

 

Being certain is not the same thing as being right.

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1. That is what my soul tells me to do, and I am not one to deny it. 2. God gave me some personal hints.

A person has to be honest and humble and follow what truth tells him. Not much more that can be asked for.

I'm confused. Are you saying god has given you personal insights into truth?
yes

That's exactly what my Mormon friends tell me: they have special revealed truth.

 

Sigh.

 

Just when I thought you were different from the other Truth Claimers who come here.

or mohamad, or david jones, or some of us here who used to think we heard from god's firect line

 

Yup, I heard from god too. Special messages about truth, and everything!

 

Well, isn't that special?

 

Actually, I thought it was. Wendyloser.gif

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I don't understand the anger here if I happened to have had an experience. So what. Its a personal thing. It is not just a feeling of insight, but absolute logical patterns. Unfortunately, I cant share it here, and i wasn't trying to. I was just answering a question honestly. I am skeptical and somewhat agnostic by nature. I surely needed an extra push, and it never happens without great sacrifice. I won't go into everything, but I will tell you a story that tells you about sacrifice and godly hints.

 

I studied for many years, and when i was younger I would take lots of notes. I had some bags of them. One time I accidentally left 1 or 2 bag fulls of notes on the lawn. When I came back they were gone. It was awful. Turns out a bad neighbor kid threw them in the garbage.

 

But

 

Where did I go to exactly when they were thrown out? Somewhere I never usually go at all. The day before I visited a nursing home, which I also don't normally do. Someone there I don't know asked me to meet her son in  the hospital who had been in an accident. I did not know the guy either. Poor guy was in a vegetative state. His family was there with him. It was awful, and I was out of place.

 

See the connection yet? God's hint was that you are to lose your notes, but not your mind.

 

God didn't need my notes. He needed my mind. 

 

I know that many people ask God for signs and this and that. I hope everyone gets what they ask for. My skeptical side tells me that it can be a self fulfilling thing. That is where the anger comes from. But one has to discern for himself if it is self fulfilling or not. And I believe that for it to be true, it requires a self-sacrifice of some kind, doing something out of the ordinary, and not for self benefit.

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Well, perhaps I'm just jealous that nat has certainty, albeit misguided. I had certainty, too, as do my Christian, Mormon and ex-Mormon friends. I miss having "certainty" that I am right and that I've got Truth by the Tail.

 

Being certain is not the same thing as being right.

 

 

I would say that is reasonable.

 

For me, I find certainty in logic. I take a great deal of pride in knowing my designs are damn good. And I take even greater pleasure when the boss sees it. But I never had certainty in faith when I look back at my experience.

 

I don't need certainty about matters of faith, that is why I find satisfaction, and even fulfillment, in being agnostic. I hinted at this to Chris, but it is the search for knowledge that brings satisfaction. I will probably never find an absolute answer, but just taking part in the search is reward in itself.

 

I suppose that is why I moved from Baptist to Nazarene to Assembly of God searching for a "true" experience. The logical conclusion is to be agnostic when one realizes that Christianity, and all religion by extension, does not reflect reality.

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I don't understand the anger here if I happened to have had an experience. So what. Its a personal thing. It is not just a feeling of insight, but absolute logical patterns.

I know that many people ask God for signs and this and that. I hope everyone gets what they ask for. My skeptical side tells me that it can be a self fulfilling thing. That is where the anger comes from. But one has to discern for himself if it is self fulfilling or not. And I believe that for it to be true, it requires a self-sacrifice of some kind, doing something out of the ordinary, and not for self benefit.

 

I envy your certainty. I miss that more than I miss the God-buzz. I really hung my hat on my beliefs and would have died for them. Now, I feel this sense of poverty. It's not a bad thing, but when you express certainty and inside tracks to truth--like hidden caches of food in a prison camp--I feel the pangs of missing certainty.

 

I am happy for you. And I still think Judaism would have been a way better fit for me than Christianity.

 

I don't need certainty about matters of faith, that is why I find satisfaction, and even fulfillment, in being agnostic. I hinted at this to Chris, but it is the search for knowledge that brings satisfaction. I will probably never find an absolute answer, but just taking part in the search is reward in itself.

 

I suppose that is why I moved from Baptist to Nazarene to Assembly of God searching for a "true" experience. The logical conclusion is to be agnostic when one realizes that Christianity, and all religion by extension, does not reflect reality.

 

I always thought that I had a handle on reality, as reflected in my faith and the messages I got from God.

 

I have gone from A Theory of Everything, to A Theory of Nothing--swinging between polar opposites as only a true fundamentalist can do!

 

Sometimes I just really miss certainty, even if it was a delusion!

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My original point came to address a very serious issue. How can anyone be a believer when truth leads one to be agnostic. How am I supposed to know if this or that happened. I wasn't there and great arguments are presented on both sides. 

 

The answer for me, at least, is that one should follow that special instinct inside him that guides you. This is purely personal and cannot be used to convince others. You can believe and present the side you believe, but that is it. You can say this is what I believe. That is unless you have logical proof.

 

The second part was about Godly hints. Sometimes this too is personal and should be kept there. Sometimes it is share-able. Unfortunately sometimes it is self delusional. But when the matter is compelling or follows a very logical pattern (like DNA) then it is a gift. 

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For the record, I am far from certain, as i am skeptical and agnostic by nature. It takes a great effort for me to be a believer, and i don't do it easily or delusionaly. In the end though, I am not completely certain, but it is what i believe. 

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In strict terms, certainty might be an impossible goal. See Gödel's incompleteness theorems.

Thanks for this linke, boftx. Very interesting. I am increasingly at peace with my lack of certainty, even if my certainty was misguided and delusional. Uncertainty is at odds with my Christian past ("I know that my redeemer lives") and my fundamentalist personality. Oh well. I am growing to find peace.

 

For the record, I am far from certain, as i am skeptical and agnostic by nature. It takes a great effort for me to be a believer, and i don't do it easily or delusionaly. In the end though, I am not completely certain, but it is what i believe. 

 

See, nat, this is why you fascinate me. smile.png  I am a guns-a-blazing dogmatic fundamentalist who is trying to learn to live in the gray of uncertainty. It's an uncomfortable place for me.

 

Ah well. I am learning.

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As a believer I often wondered about becoming Jewish, as the Jesus stuff was theologically difficult for me, and Paul's stuff was just crap.... Thank you for sharing this unique perspective. You've given me some food for thought as I retrospectively examine my struggles with Christianity.

 

It's funny you mention this, my experience in Christianity is similar.  Christianity relies heavily on the Old Testament, and sometimes I wonder how the religion has gone 2,000 years without this being its undoing.  Back when I was a Christian, I noticed that the Old Testament gave a fairly self-consistent view of God, only to be upended by the New Testament.  This clash is very obvious, and Paul goes to great lengths to address the issue.  But his arguments were never that satisfying to me.  As you say, Paul's stuff is just crap.  The Torah makes very clear statements that it is a set of perpetual statutes for Israel, and then Paul casually dismisses them and says that the Torah has been superceded by the gospel.  There were times of doubt (or perhaps clarity?) when I too realized that the New Testament could not be reconciled with the Old, and considered becoming Jewish.  Who knows?  Maybe that's why I retain a continuing admiration for Judaism.  Well, that and the fact that it is an unabashedly anti-Christian religion.

 

 

For the record, I am far from certain, as i am skeptical and agnostic by nature. It takes a great effort for me to be a believer, and i don't do it easily or delusionaly. In the end though, I am not completely certain, but it is what i believe.

 

Oh, I can surely relate to this.  I don't really have any logical reason to believe in Hinduism myself.  Mostly I believe in it because it's the religion I was raised in, and I prefer it to being an atheist.  I think this degree of intellectual humility can do us all a world of good.

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As a believer I often wondered about becoming Jewish, as the Jesus stuff was theologically difficult for me, and Paul's stuff was just crap.... Thank you for sharing this unique perspective. You've given me some food for thought as I retrospectively examine my struggles with Christianity.

 

It's funny you mention this, my experience in Christianity is similar.  Christianity relies heavily on the Old Testament, and sometimes I wonder how the religion has gone 2,000 years without this being its undoing.  Back when I was a Christian, I noticed that the Old Testament gave a fairly self-consistent view of God, only to be upended by the New Testament.  This clash is very obvious, and Paul goes to great lengths to address the issue.  But his arguments were never that satisfying to me.  As you say, Paul's stuff is just crap.  The Torah makes very clear statements that it is a set of perpetual statutes for Israel, and then Paul casually dismisses them and says that the Torah has been superceded by the gospel.  There were times of doubt (or perhaps clarity?) when I too realized that the New Testament could not be reconciled with the Old, and considered becoming Jewish.  Who knows?  Maybe that's why I retain a continuing admiration for Judaism.  Well, that and the fact that it is an unabashedly anti-Christian religion.

 

 

For the record, I am far from certain, as i am skeptical and agnostic by nature. It takes a great effort for me to be a believer, and i don't do it easily or delusionaly. In the end though, I am not completely certain, but it is what i believe.

 

Oh, I can surely relate to this.  I don't really have any logical reason to believe in Hinduism myself.  Mostly I believe in it because it's the religion I was raised in, and I prefer it to being an atheist.  I think this degree of intellectual humility can do us all a world of good.

 

For my part, I would not say that I have no logical reason. Just not complete certainly on all aspects. But my brain is not all knowing in any case, so who cares. It also makes numerous mistakes so it is unreliable. Belief, I believe, comes from the soul. And humility is the best guide.

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Backing away from the mystical, experiential argument in the thread...I think it is fascinating how Judaism has been affected by Christianity.  In the original post,

Nat talks about the affect Paul certainly has had, as well as the poor treatment the Jews have received (to put it mildly) over the centuries by Christians.   As someone pointed out, as Judaism is not a proselytizing religion, without Christianity's claim of Jewish roots it would probably be hardly on the radar as a significant world religion.  I mean, the Old Testament god clearly is a bit of a racist and if you're not born as one of his "chosen people,"  what would possibly draw you to this deity or worship of him?  This is not to say some of the philosophy is not intellectually interesting, but i even wonder if Judaism itself would not have died out like most of the other ancient, regional religions had not Constantine got the ball really rolling to make Jesus the pre-eminent god on the planet (and the ovbiously reactionary creation of Islam, etc, etc.).  In a sick and twisted way, the Christian attention to the Jews and even their genocides may have pushed the Jewish people to cling to their religious roots in ways that they might not have otherwise...

 

Just pondering...

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For the record, I am far from certain, as i am skeptical and agnostic by nature. It takes a great effort for me to be a believer, and i don't do it easily or delusionaly. In the end though, I am not completely certain, but it is what i believe. 

 

 

When I was Christian I was a member of the Church of Christ a very strict legalistic sect of religious fundamentalism. When I left them I found a support group on line the Ex Church of Christ.  I participated on that site for about seven years. I met a lady there who was born into the Church of Christ but converted to Judaism in her early twenties mainly because she married a Jewish man.

 

She immersed herself in the study of Judaism. She had become an expert in Judaism. I learned much from her during my participation on that site. One of the things I learned is that a Christians would never truly understand their faith until they had at least a working knowledge of Judaism especially Second Temple Judaism. Through my contact with her I developed a great respect for her faith and that encouraged me to learn all I could about my faith.

 

I spent several years studying the birth and evolution of religion in general, Judaism, and Christianity. Those studies ultimately convinced me to reject all forms of revealed religions because I became convinced they are all manmade. I have come to realize that rejecting structured religion does not necessitate the rejection of other forms of spirituality. I personally lean towards a non-supernatural version of Deism called Panendeism. Others have taken a purely rational intellectual approach to spirituality and rejected all of it as manmade nonsense and become atheist. I respect their suppositions and understand clearly why they hold that POV. After all they have science and physics on their side and it’s difficult to argue with that. Unfortunately, IMO, those that hold that position tend to become what they despise in organized religion. And by that I mean they tend to become self righteous and arrogant and see their way as the only way and anyone who sees things differently is uninformed and ignorant.

 

Before Deities became anthropomorphic super humanoids the ancients were in awe of and worshipped nature and creation. Karen Armstrong in her book A History of God notes that belief in God or some form of spirituality is simply a choice. Spirituality is not something that can be proven it can only be experienced. I hesitate to use the word God because that word comes with a lot of baggage, but belief in God, the Divine, some form of Spirituality or Mysticism is not necessarily synonymous with being “religious” nor does it require membership in any organized religion. IMO, it is simply a recognition there may be more to our reality than what we have thus far identified. We know about dark matter, dark energy, gravity, and numerous other invisible energies in our universe so “maybe” there is also an invisible energy force that makes life possible and enables life to exist and to continuously evolve. The fact such a possibility exist is why I’m agnostic rather than atheist.  

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In strict terms, certainty might be an impossible goal. See Gödel's incompleteness theorems.

Thanks for this linke, boftx. Very interesting. I am increasingly at peace with my lack of certainty, even if my certainty was misguided and delusional. Uncertainty is at odds with my Christian past ("I know that my redeemer lives") and my fundamentalist personality. Oh well. I am growing to find peace.

 

For the record, I am far from certain, as i am skeptical and agnostic by nature. It takes a great effort for me to be a believer, and i don't do it easily or delusionaly. In the end though, I am not completely certain, but it is what i believe. 

 

See, nat, this is why you fascinate me. smile.png  I am a guns-a-blazing dogmatic fundamentalist who is trying to learn to live in the gray of uncertainty. It's an uncomfortable place for me.

 

Ah well. I am learning.

 

 

Pos, i know what you mean when you say you wish you had that certainty.  Everyone wishes they knew THE ULTIMATE TRUTH OF THE FUCKING UNIVERSE, right?  well, no one does (although i'd say cosmologists/etc at least have evidence to back up their claims).   Anyways, for me, I think the best thing to replace that desire for certainty is simply a desire for peace among all people.  Fuck "truth".  Nobody has it, ultimately.   Not yet, maybe not ever.  I guess as long as someone's 'god' is invisible, inaudible, nonphysical and completely undetectable, you'll never prove to believers that they're wrong.  Love between sentient creatures is my 'god'.  

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 I guess as long as someone's 'god' is invisible, inaudible, nonphysical and completely undetectable, you'll never prove to believers that they're wrong.

 

 

 

And the congregation said, "Amen."

 

And as long as believers interpret their random thoughts, feelings, coincidences, and outright hallucinations as confirmation or direction from their god, it's a no win. If you believe that your god is under every rock, you will indeed find him under every rock.

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 I guess as long as someone's 'god' is invisible, inaudible, nonphysical and completely undetectable, you'll never prove to believers that they're wrong.

 

 

 

And the congregation said, "Amen."

 

And as long as believers interpret their random thoughts, feelings, coincidences, and outright hallucinations as confirmation or direction from their god, it's a no win. If you believe that your god is under every rock, you will indeed find him under every rock.

 

And if you think he is not under any rock, you won't find him. Self fulfillment can go both ways.

The only way is to be humble and open to the truth, whatever it is. 

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 I guess as long as someone's 'god' is invisible, inaudible, nonphysical and completely undetectable, you'll never prove to believers that they're wrong.

 

 

 

And the congregation said, "Amen."

 

And as long as believers interpret their random thoughts, feelings, coincidences, and outright hallucinations as confirmation or direction from their god, it's a no win. If you believe that your god is under every rock, you will indeed find him under every rock.

 

And if you think he is not under any rock, you won't find him. Self fulfillment can go both ways.

The only way is to be humble and open to the truth, whatever it is. 

 

 

 

How about, if you look under every rock with no knowledge of a god.  What do you see then?  From my experience, you still do not see or experience a god.

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What if God is in the rock? What if God is the rock? What if there is no rock? Let's leave no stone unturned.

 

I wish this thread had stayed on topic.

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This is a good example of what we were talking about in the Jesus as anti-christ thread. To a learned Jew the whole Jesus myth is laughable and an outright deceptive tool clearly designed around quote mining the OT out of context to try and force fit mystery school type pagan ideas that were previously foreign to second Temple Judaism, into Judaism as if they belong where they do not. The so-called fulfillment of prophecy is completely laughable to a learned Jew. It's such a shoddy hack job system of patch work and logic leaping that it still amazes me that so many people can still buy into such evidence nonsense in this day and age.

 

But, alas, Nate nails it to the cross - so to speak - by basically pointing out that the lure of a quick salvation can conquer the minds of many. But never the Jewish people as a whole. The Jewish people as a whole are apparently too smart to fall for such blatant out of context quote mining and straw man raising by Christian sources. And that really burns Christians asses - that their deception tools will not work on everyone no matter how clever they think their deception is, or can be. It still falls on flaccid results with Jews, Muslims, and quite frankly atheists and freethinkers too. 

 

No wonder the dirty little buggers hate everyone else's views so much...

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The OT is very legalistic, and expect effort from it's followers. You actually have to DO something.

 

The NT offers a 'get out of jail free' card.

 

Humans are lazy and don't like personal responsibility... hence = christianity.

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To me, the fundamental mistake of Christianity is that it posits a force outside of you who is all powerful and who can fix things if only you have some requisite amount of faith.  How much? Anyone's guess. I don't believe in that concept anymore. You must work things out for yourself.

 

Christianity makes a lot of promises it does not fulfill. I think this was the ultimate reason I left it, and not the conflicts with science or other reason, which I was also aware of but could have lived with. It promises a remedy that it does not deliver, except perhaps in the next life, which doesn't help now.  Aesthetically and on an emotional level it was deficient and did not produce in me a loving heart or a better person.  Yes, my decision to leave was an emotional reaction in many ways. I saw how Christians behaved and the problems I continued to have.

 

You cannot simply command people to "love one another" and it happens.  There is no emotional intelligence in Christianity.  The effect it was supposed to have - to love others - never materialized. In fact, it was in the opposite direction.

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