Proving You Actually Were A Real Christian

[midniterider]

I can prove I was a real Xian. I got a baptism certificate. :-)

 

Seems that if it is sooooooooo easy to say "You were never a true Christian" I wonder how many of those so called "on fire" Christians are really on fire. There really is no metric for this. Well, maybe we could all get a lie detector test and carry around a certified result proving that we were real Christians. lol.

[raoul]

A baptism certificate? Man, another classic! Thanks ROFL

[RipVanWinkle]

Was Alice a Xtian? No, she was more in touch with reality. bill

[boftx]

 

Seems appropriate at this point.

[stryper]

I can prove I was a real Xian. I got a baptism certificate. :-)

 

Seems that if it is sooooooooo easy to say "You were never a true Christian" I wonder how many of those so called "on fire" Christians are really on fire. There really is no metric for this. Well, maybe we could all get a lie detector test and carry around a certified result proving that we were real Christians. lol.

 

 

My guess is not many because the burn units would be full. 

[MattFoley]

"You never were a xian, it was a hollow facade. Real xians dont quit. And in case you arent getting the msg...since you're own xian faith ended miserably-we don't need a lecture from you on how to live."  

 

"Well, the fact you walked away from your faith just means that you never really knew Christ in the first place!" -- this seems to be the "stock" answer from Christians, doesn't it?

 

I can't count all the times where I'd pray, "God, please reveal your good and perfect plan to me." or "God, please grant me peace through this trial." You know what I'd hear back? Nothing!

 

I remember one particular small group I attended while in college where we would literally spend half the meeting just sitting and listening for the voice of God. Once in a while, someone would start talking about what God had just put on there heart to talk about. I never heard a thing.

 

This is what gets me. How Am I supposed to get to know a God who doesn't resond and gives no quantifiable eveidence of his existence? I don't get it.

[Mongo]

I think what bothers us so much about the comment is that we see it as the believer shifting the reason for deconversion away from the facts and evidence that prove it valid and instead blame it on a weakness in us that does NOT exist. We want them to face reason and facts. They will go anywhere but that.

This topic bugs me too.

 

I think what bothers me the most is how I can have credibility one day and not another depending on whether I believe in the bible or not.

 

I would propose the non-believer consider that there is a false belief that we cling to. That is, we look back to the day that we were belivers and assume that the credibility that others assigned to us was well deserved.

 

The truth is that people used the wrong criteria to judge whether we were credible. So in our memories we think people saw the genuine person inside us that was seeking the truth but in reality they didn't see that - they only saw us going to church faithfullly, praising god and reading the bible(which we could quote).

 

I think the only reasonable response to that is to challenge them to take a critical look at the people around them and ask themselves which one of them they can truly trust and ask them to consider why they trust them. Ask them to figure out which ones will never fall away because they are genuine christians and which ones are false ones.

 

This thought was one of the thousand cuts that killed my faith. I realized that in order for me to believe that the earth was made in 7 days, I had to trust the people (who I never met) that made the  bible. Going further, I also had to trust the people who studied it and told me that I could trust the people who made the bible. I then had to trust my pastor and deacons who told me to trust the people who studied it and told me to trust the people who made the bible.

 

In the end, you cannot look at anyone and realize that you can genuinely trust that they know the truth about god. No one.

 

So once it boiled down to me trusting me, it all unravelled from there.

 

Mongo

[♦ Fuego ♦]

When they are selling you the faith, believing/trusting is the most simple thing in the world, something a child can do. When we deconvert, believing becomes something that we didn't do right, or faked, or held on to hidden sins, or any other excuse they can invent. If 1 John 2:18-19 is true, then so are the other verses that we clung to for proof of our salvation:

 

 

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:6

 

 

 

 

 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

 

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned” John 3:18

 

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life” John 3:36

 

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24

 

“I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.” John 6:47

 

“I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.” John 12:46

 

“All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:43

 

“Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.” Romans 10:4

 

“Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God” 1 John 5:1

 

And of course we partook of the wine and the bread and were not harmed 1 Cor. 11:29-30. So there are several scriptures that stare them in the face that they have to discount, and change belief into some contorted meaning.

[R. S. Martin]

 

I think what bothers us so much about the comment is that we see it as the believer shifting the reason for deconversion away from the facts and evidence that prove it valid and instead blame it on a weakness in us that does NOT exist. We want them to face reason and facts. They will go anywhere but that.

This topic bugs me too.

 

I think what bothers me the most is how I can have credibility one day and not another depending on whether I believe in the bible or not.

 

I would propose the non-believer consider that there is a false belief that we cling to. That is, we look back to the day that we were belivers and assume that the credibility that others assigned to us was well deserved.

 

The truth is that people used the wrong criteria to judge whether we were credible. So in our memories we think people saw the genuine person inside us that was seeking the truth but in reality they didn't see that - they only saw us going to church faithfullly, praising god and reading the bible(which we could quote).

 

I think the only reasonable response to that is to challenge them to take a critical look at the people around them and ask themselves which one of them they can truly trust and ask them to consider why they trust them. Ask them to figure out which ones will never fall away because they are genuine christians and which ones are false ones.

 

This thought was one of the thousand cuts that killed my faith. I realized that in order for me to believe that the earth was made in 7 days, I had to trust the people (who I never met) that made the  bible. Going further, I also had to trust the people who studied it and told me that I could trust the people who made the bible. I then had to trust my pastor and deacons who told me to trust the people who studied it and told me to trust the people who made the bible.

 

In the end, you cannot look at anyone and realize that you can genuinely trust that they know the truth about god. No one.

 

So once it boiled down to me trusting me, it all unravelled from there.

 

Mongo

 

 

Mongo! Long, long time no see! In the last day or so I've been thinking of some of the people who used to be around years ago but haven't been here for ages. So good to see you.

 

Good post, too, as usual.

[RipVanWinkle]

You can't win that argument, Kruszer, with Xtiaans any more than you could with a rock. But you said

their point was Xtians never give up. Does not that mean they would never give up even if they were

proven wrong? I bet they would not even answer that question if you asked it hypothetically. That is: "If you assume that Xtianity were proven wrong, would you then leave it?"

 

One of the ways i could tell if a witness was lying when I was practicing law, was if he/she refused to

answer a hypothetical question. They usually said they "could not assume" whatever it was. I have seen a judge order them to answer the question. Then suddenly, miraculously, they found that they could answer

the question after all. bill

[raoul]

Actually Bill, the 'love child' of apologetics, Wm. Lane Craig, did answer that in a way. During a debate a while ago he was asked if the things he argued in favor of (Cosmological, Argument from Design, et.al.) were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be false, what would be his stance. He replied that he would still believe. So, your initial premise about arguing with them is the same as doing so with a rock is sadly true.

You can't win that argument, Kruszer, with Xtiaans any more than you could with a rock. But you said
their point was Xtians never give up. Does not that mean they would never give up even if they were
proven wrong? I bet they would not even answer that question if you asked it hypothetically. That is: "If you assume that Xtianity were proven wrong, would you then leave it?"

 

[midniterider]

"I was never a true christian."

 

Hmm...well seeing how the true christians seem to be douches when you leave the fold... we can rephrase the statement as:

 

I was never a true douche. And really it isnt something I would want to be. :-)

[Mongo]

Mongo! Long, long time no see! In the last day or so I've been thinking of some of the people who used to be around years ago but haven't been here for ages. So good to see you.

 

Good post, too, as usual.

 

 

I guess XC has been off my radar for a while.

 

However I'm so very thankful for the encouragement and insight that the folks at XC have provided. It was important to bounce ideas off of others like me.

 

I have other issues and worries these days and so being a christian is really part of my past now.

 

I trust/hope that you've been able to make peace with your experience and hope that you have found some common ground with your family.

 

Take care Ruby!

[kruszer]

 

Actually Bill, the 'love child' of apologetics, Wm. Lane Craig, did answer that in a way. During a debate a while ago he was asked if the things he argued in favor of (Cosmological, Argument from Design, et.al.) were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be false, what would be his stance. He replied that he would still believe. So, your initial premise about arguing with them is the same as doing so with a rock is sadly true.

You can't win that argument, Kruszer, with Xtiaans any more than you could with a rock. But you said

their point was Xtians never give up. Does not that mean they would never give up even if they were

proven wrong? I bet they would not even answer that question if you asked it hypothetically. That is: "If you assume that Xtianity were proven wrong, would you then leave it?"

 

 

 

This might be a question for another  thread, but what is it then that makes us different?  We were once as solidly convinced as they are, so why were we able to break through all that and leave the fold?

[Galien]

Of course you werent a real christian. For that there would have to be a christ.

 

I have worked out I was probably never a real christian either. I was never that much of an asshole.

[kruszer]

On the other side of the coin, I also get the line from family and friends that I still *AM* a True Christian and am merely going through a "phase" or a "journey" or a "dark night of the soul."  It's just temporary backsliding and rebellion, and I'll "get over it."

 

...  Anyone else with me on that?

Yes!  My best friend, disappointed that I as the god-mother to her youngest daughter would leave the faith, told me not long ago:  "I believe God wants you to be an atheist for now, so that you're able to reach the atheist community with the pro-life message." (I'm a pro-life atheist) 

 

Yes that's right - God wants me to be an atheist.  Prick that he is, he would hide his presence from me until I no longer believed, just so he could have a pawn for his agenda.  Nice!   I still have a good laugh about that every now and then. 

[raoul]

 

 

Actually Bill, the 'love child' of apologetics, Wm. Lane Craig, did answer that in a way. During a debate a while ago he was asked if the things he argued in favor of (Cosmological, Argument from Design, et.al.) were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be false, what would be his stance. He replied that he would still believe. So, your initial premise about arguing with them is the same as doing so with a rock is sadly true.

You can't win that argument, Kruszer, with Xtiaans any more than you could with a rock. But you said

their point was Xtians never give up. Does not that mean they would never give up even if they were

proven wrong? I bet they would not even answer that question if you asked it hypothetically. That is: "If you assume that Xtianity were proven wrong, would you then leave it?"

 

 

 

This might be a question for another  thread, but what is it then that makes us different?  We were once as solidly convinced as they are, so why were we able to break through all that and leave the fold?

 

Critical thinking? Maybe we always had it but suppressed it for a while during our various periods of time in the cult.

[RachelSkates]

"You never were a xian, it was a hollow facade. Real xians dont quit. And in case you arent getting the msg...since you're own xian faith ended miserably-we don't need a lecture from you on how to live."

 

Good Fing Cripes! What a rude son of a bitch. Tell him if he can't love the unlovable (which we are now) he can go screw his cross. What an evil . hateful, fouled up sorry excuse for a blood washed, born again, sheep dipped FING believer!!!!!!!!

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

The text below is from a website I recently stumbled across:  https://sites.google.com/site/leavingxtianity/

(emphasis mine)

 

It is usually left to the personal research of the curious amongst us, or the chance discovery of a student of religion to stumble across the historical, psychological, philosophical, anthropological and sociological problems of Christianity. This research, although often very long and arduous, can still come as a shock to the highly religious.  <snip>

 

 

Also Christians seldom do justice to the possibility of what we have read, thought and discovered, merely claiming we can't have been "true Christians" or asking "where did you go wrong?"

It is a common misapprehension to claim that those who leave Christianity never understood what Christianity was "really about." The full range of Christian types leave Christianity, from all denominations, doctrines, and persuasions. From the most liberal to the most fundamentalist. The philosophical liberal, the conservative orthodox, the born-again and the hyper-charismatic fundie.

 

Christianity was once the centre of the universe for the many former Christians who lived it, thought it, felt it, preached it, discussed it, prayed privately and publicly, led religious groups and been thanked for encouraging other Christians and helping them in their "walk with Christ." Certainly if we were not "true Christians" then our fellow Christians were not able to judge a tree by its fruit. Ex-Christians have felt moved by religious experience and lost in numinous feeling of connection with God, taken communion, partaken of all kinds of fellowship, retreats, Christian college courses, study groups and missionary crusades. They have written many words of Christian thought, coming from all theological and doctrinal positions.

 

Nobody I have heard of chooses whilst they are a believing Christian to leave Christianity, neither do they think that they (a "real Christian") would ever deconvert. But they do leave. Indeed, the idea of choice does not describe what happens. Rather than choosing "I will not believe this now" (psychologically impossible to not believe something you do believe!) instead researches lead to the inescapable conclusion that Christianity is false. Not only that but contrary to former beliefs ex-Christians are so often surprised to find a better inner life after deconversion.

 

 

Your Christian friends will not understand.  They do not want to understand.  The only way for them to remain Christians is to remain ignorant of blatantly obvious facts that discredit their beliefs.

 

 

Certainly if we were not "true Christians" then our fellow Christians were not able to judge a tree by its fruit.

 

Ouch, what a great line to torpedo them with. Boom!

 

 

And to take it a step further, if they can't discern a tree by its fruit, then apparently they aren't being led by the Holy Spirit, which in turn implies that they aren't true Christians.