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Goodbye Jesus

Miracle Healing


SquareOne

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Hello

I have not read other people's replies, so apologize if I repeat someone,  but i will share my thoughts. It is not going to be a nodding in agreement post. This topic is a single issue that bothers me to this day.

And it has to do with miraculous healing.

Her name is Euginia Polishuk, she's Ukrainian, and I am too for the record. This is the Only miracle story that is giving me trouble to forget christianity. Here's why.

Her miracle healing happened instanteneously. It was observed by a roomful of people. Now, I'm skipping ahead of myself.

Eugenia Polishuk, from her own words as I interviewed her twice, developed some kind of spine problem from hard manual labor in Ukraine in her late teens. It progressed to the point she could not walk. She had to lay in bed. Good hospitals in Soviet Ukraine tried to fix her problem for two years. Finally she was not helped and was sent home to basically die. The young woman lay in bed for total 4 years and 7 months. The bone disease, I can only guess it was arthritis of some kind crooked her body to the point her knees touched her chin. She was spoonfed for last years. And now the miracle.

Dmitry Berezyuk, whom I visited in Ukraine twice too, was a powerful healer as people regarded him in 1970s. He went to see Euginia and it happened that a room full of people was there. By the way, I have met two people who visited Euginia before she was healed, and they confirmed that she was bed struck and in bad conditioned when they saw her. I have not interviewed or met others that were supposedly in the room when the miracle happened. So, by the account of both Euginia and Dmitry, when Dmitry prayed for her, she suddenly sprang up from the bed (so he had to catch her) and the two say that her bones were cracking. The full miracle happened in the manner of minutes. Dmitry says he watched Euginia's leg veins fill up with blood, as blood travelled down from hips to toes, since she lay in bed for so long and had little blood circulation. According to the both, Euginia started walking the same evening, and had dinner for the first time (i don't know in how long) since she was spoon fed.

So I don't know. I talked to the healed, and I talked to the healer, to both on two occasions, and as a skeptic. I am myself very uninterested in the actual healing to be true because everything else in my worldview aligns with atheism nowdays. But I gotta be honest, I know what I do.

If anyone is interested in the miracle, or to talk with the healed, I'm interested to do something. I am vested in discrediting the story, if not to anyone then to myself. Euginia Polishuk is in her 60s now, she lives in US in the city of Kent, WA. This is about 40 minute drive from where I live. Dmitry Berezyuk lives in Kostopol, Ukraine, I went to see him in Feb or this year. Granted there's a language barrier. I took an non ukrainian with me last time and translated to them. I could do translation if anyone is interested to listen.

In terms of documentation, this part is lacking seriously. The only evidence is the first hand witnesses themselves, the healed and the healer. One surviving evidence is the photo of Eugine laying in bed in what appears crooked position and a photocopy of a medical document that says "General Illness", Someone did investigation to build up the case and contacted her hospital in Ukraine, turned out the documents were lost due to some fire. There's good explanation to the lacking documentation, that in Soviet Ukraine Christians were severly tracked and prosecuted and authorities wanted to silence the healing.

Anyway that's all I got. An account from first hand witnesses of what appears to be a major healing.

All the best

uh.. sorry but you're a complete idiot if you believe this ridiculous story, and the people who cooked it up are the lowest of the low. 

 

 

But how could you know if it was cooked up or not? It could be true and it might not be true. If there really is evidence that it is true and if trueagnostic is believing something based on evidence then he or she isn't a complete idiot. I'm skeptical of this too and I hope that trueagnostic hasn't been completely deceived. It would be nice to believe in miracles, regardless of what might cause them.

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This was very interesting, made me thinking, I wish this was empirically proven to be true, that would be the end of me being agnostic lol

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But how could you know if it was cooked up or not? It could be true and it might not be true. If there really is evidence that it is true and if trueagnostic is believing something based on evidence then he or she isn't a complete idiot. I'm skeptical of this too and I hope that trueagnostic hasn't been completely deceived. It would be nice to believe in miracles, regardless of what might cause them.

 

Appreciate your consideration crazyguy123,

What makes me take seriously the story is that I talked to both healed and healer. Ok, you can say healer is biased. Even though his account is consistent with Eugine's. He says to me when I went to specifically see him and tried to impose my atheistic doubts on him -- "I'd be a lier if I were not witness to this happening. Euginia sprang up in the air, and I and everyone in the room heard her bones cracking loud, people had to close ears because of the noise. I caught her in mid air and saw her legs straigten up, and blood start traveling down her legs after she lay in bed all those years. She ate on her own and walked the same evening". Just seeing him recount the story is impressive. But, fine I agree healer theoretically could have an interest to make up story. But the healed did lay in bed for that long and she was spoonfed. I talked to witnesses who saw her in that condition. She says she was on disability those years. Hard to come up with a reason why she would fake that for almost 5 years..

Eugine's testimony is widely available online, regretfully in russian only.

Anyway, if someone has an interest to confirm and come to Seattle, shoot me a message, you'll see I'm not making all this up.

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Wow.. I repeat, you are an idiot. OR you/they made it up, probably to try and profit from it, which is worse. NOTHING in this story even remotely resembles evidence, it is second hand hearsay at best.

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Guest r3alchild

As a person who has ab natal cerebral palsy necessitating wheelchairs and ab natal deafness requiring sign language and written English as well, I have been subject of many an attempt at healing. Obviously, they haven't worked or I would have been unreservedly a Christian all of these years ago. What is strange is that if a single attempt at healing haven't worked, you would have thought that it would have seriously put a true dent in the case that God is all powerful since all powerful means not an exception should be made in healing, all should be healed, but I am not healed neither are any other people even if they think they have been healed. I think not a single real case of healing ever has been made in any given year of Christianity. Not ever.

 

Miracle healing wasn't the thing that made me left Christianity, although it was a definite factor.

Since christians say god is impartial to all, then god must heal all or he is not impartial to all.
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Since christians say god is impartial to all, then god must heal all or he is not impartial to all.

 

exactly. If God had the power to heal, why would he heal her and not million other sick people praying to him. Is she special? How does god decides who is worthy to be healed? (I would start with healing kids with cancer, not a woman with a bone disease....) Is the healer special? Then he would be able to heal other people, too. Or does God act randomly? That wouldn't be all-loving and equitable.

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Since christians say god is impartial to all, then god must heal all or he is not impartial to all.

 

exactly. If God had the power to heal, why would he heal her and not million other sick people praying to him. Is she special? How does god decides who is worthy to be healed? (I would start with healing kids with cancer, not a woman with a bone disease....) Is the healer special? Then he would be able to heal other people, too. Or does God act randomly? That wouldn't be all-loving and equitable.

 

 

I don't think a god or the powers of some faith healer had anything to do with this, if the healing was actually true to begin with. If miracles really do happen, then they are probably nothing more than random events not caused by any spiritual entity. If they are caused by a spiritual entity or some other type of life form we have not yet detected, then it must not be all powerful and is only able to do a miracle every now and then, but can't do a whole bunch all at once or one big miracle at one time.

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I grew up in an Assembly of God church and sat through many "revival" sermons with traveling charlatans evangelist. All of them were given the "gift" of healing and cured many diseases along with casting out demons (according to them anyway). Even at 12 years old I noticed all of the healing and demon casting seemed to happen at the last church they visited. It was always the very last revival where there was an overwhelming outpouring of the holy spirit. Evidently the holy spirit dwells within the pocket book and can only work when everyone gives until it hurts.

 

There was a deaf kid in our youth group. He also had some physical problems and was more than likely affected by Fragile X syndrome. Of course he was a natural target of these slimy evangelist and had to sit through countless hours of  faith healing. Every revival he would be paraded onto to the stage for the latest con artist to lay his filthy hands on him and attempt to make this poor kid hear. When the poor kid who was born without the ability to hear still couldn't hear, it was always the fault of the congregation and their lack of faith. We were always given the opportunity to increase our faith through the act of passing around the offering plate. At 12 years of age I saw this as a complete sham and couldn't figure out why all the adults around me kept coming back for more of this nonsense.

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Guest r3alchild

I grew up in an Assembly of God church and sat through many "revival" sermons with traveling charlatans evangelist. All of them were given the "gift" of healing and cured many diseases along with casting out demons (according to them anyway). Even at 12 years old I noticed all of the healing and demon casting seemed to happen at the last church they visited. It was always the very last revival where there was an overwhelming outpouring of the holy spirit. Evidently the holy spirit dwells within the pocket book and can only work when everyone gives until it hurts.

 

There was a deaf kid in our youth group. He also had some physical problems and was more than likely affected by Fragile X syndrome. Of course he was a natural target of these slimy evangelist and had to sit through countless hours of faith healing. Every revival he would be paraded onto to the stage for the latest con artist to lay his filthy hands on him and attempt to make this poor kid hear. When the poor kid who was born without the ability to hear still couldn't hear, it was always the fault of the congregation and their lack of faith. We were always given the opportunity to increase our faith through the act of passing around the offering plate. At 12 years of age I saw this as a complete sham and couldn't figure out why all the adults around me kept coming back for more of this nonsense.

God can not be impartial if he needs some % of faith to do some % of healing.
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Guest r3alchild

Note: When jesus says

 

Matthew 9:29

Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”

 

I then say, "so then can you actually do anything?"

 

Any dick can say, be healed as you believe you will. Maybe ill go into the cancer ward for children and tell them that and hey if one or two survive ill throw up my hands and praise god, but remain ignorant that god could have healed them all. But then as christians say he is just waiting for our faith to act. Thats like my child being trapped in a burning building and expecting the people around me to believe that I can do anything before I will rush in and save him.

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And you can see in the verse that the whole thing is an appeal to the mind. For this thing to be accomplished belief and / or visualization of the end result is required.   So right then and there we can weed through the minority of actual healing's and see a pattern of mind over matter beginning to emerge. Let's say that Russian woman did leap up with all of the drama of bones cracking out loud and the people witnessing completely flabbergasted and whatnot.

 

trueagnostic, those of us in the know realize full well that the man made and evolving concept of the Biblical YHWH is just plain out as far as any attempt at a valid explanation goes. If true, then this woman's mind was strong enough to heal her own body based on the conviction (Jedi mind trick) of strong belief. What else? 

 

A mythological God did it? 

 

A mythological Devil did it? 

 

An alien space craft shot a beam of energy down into the house? 

 

lol

 

What I don't get is how this miracle, if true mind you, would have any effect on pushing some one from agnostic to theistic or to even question or second guess an agnostic position? 

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Why doesn't god heal amputees? (must be some bizarre bigotry, sort of like men with damaged or missing genitals can't enter the tabernacle or something like that, wtf?  LOL   so no eunuchs in Heaven, but no sex either... I just lost a brain cell)

 

The body is an amazing thing and spontaneous healing and remissions are documented... with or without prayer or healing intervention..

 

Still.. science has healed more people... ummm.. Polio? Smallpox?, etc... and it's verifiable.

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^That's really the ultimate test for faith healers. Alright, let's see you heal a missing limb back into existence again. Even with the Jedi mind trick self healing methods this would appear completely out of reach. And yet according to supernatural theology the feat should be completely doable.

 

There's no reason that a supernatural God couldn't do it. It would probably be much more powerful and convincing than even resurrecting a fully intact body from the dead to be quite honest. Imagine taking some one like Bethany Hamilton having some one do a Benny Hinn "in Jesus name..." type command and then seeing her missing arm materialize in real time. 

 

But even then, I'd still blame it on the unknown depths of the mind and human perception directly affecting the unfolding of physical reality before resorting to "Goddidit!" 

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^That's really the ultimate test for faith healers. Alright, let's see you heal a missing limb back into existence again. Even with the Jedi mind trick self healing methods this would appear completely out of reach. And yet according to supernatural theology the feat should be completely doable.

 

There's no reason that a supernatural God couldn't do it. It would probably be much more powerful and convincing than even resurrecting a fully intact body from the dead to be quite honest. Imagine taking some one like Bethany Hamilton having some one do a Benny Hinn "in Jesus name..." type command and then seeing her missing arm materialize in real time. 

 

But even then, I'd still blame it on the unknown depths of the mind and human perception directly affecting the unfolding of physical reality before resorting to "Goddidit!" 

that's the thing. Apologists would say god doesn't heal like that because it would take away free will, would force us to believe in him and make us robots. but the truth is, there would always be people, no matter how concvincing the evidence, who would not believe. And this is even shown to be the case in the bible, when the Israelites, who were shown all sorts of amazing signs from God, still decided to go their own way. That argument doesn't hold up either.

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So mercy has no play in anything god does... just the whole.. 'faith' thing?

 

makes me sick

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  • 3 months later...

This song is a tragic example of the miracle healing wing of christianity. Michael Guglielmucci is the writer and lead singer of this song in which the main line is 'I believe you're my healer' and other professions of faith that god WILL heal him. The story is that Michael wrote it after being diagnosed with a deadly form of cancer and was actually 'dying' when he performed this live (you can see the oxygen tubes going into his nose). This only made the song more powerful and faith building to those who believed as he really was starring death in the face when he sung this. 

 

Many have made such a confession while very ill and have died but this story ended with a twist. Michael, wracked with guilt over the popularity of the song and the 'false' message it gave went on national television to confess that he made it all up, he was not dying but he had been lying to family and friends, then finally himself in such an elaborate way that all were convinced. He faked doctors appointments and even trips to Europe for the best treatment. He had deceived himself so deeply that his body actually took on the symptoms he confessed to have but all tests came up negative to any major physical illness. It turns out he had a porn addiction problem, which as a famous youth pastor is not something you can ask for help with. The shame and guilt of watching porn as a christian tore him apart (another problem entirely - the guilt trips of the church). So instead he developed this charade and wrote this song. 

 

I think Michael was genuinely mentally ill and his apology seemed hoenst; he has lost a great deal by coming out. Hillsong however released a corporate 'covering our asses' statement to detach themselves from him (despite the fact that he was a major youth pastor and worship leader) and continued to make money off the song. I was going to a hillsong affiliated song when this happened and they just stopped playing the song. They provided no explanation for the craziness of the fact that many had sung this song wholeheartedly, in tears and faith that god would heal them (which I was one of) and Michael. Nope, it was just never to be discussed.

 

Not only was it shocking that we were deceived but 'god' didn't give the 'spirit of wisdom and knowledge; to any of the super-pastors MIchael was under. This really angers me because they spat Michael out and hid the rest of the mess under the carpet while the flock still cry out to god, believing he will heal them. WendyDoh.gif

Here is the live version of the song. Sorry it doesn't embed. I have been having troubles with it working despite copying or cutting the URL to past here.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5qoQmjwv-0

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Thanks for sharing this story wanderinstar.  This is absolutely typical of the dishonest behaviour of corporate money-snatching "Christians".

 

How I wish they would all just clear off for good.  As though they aren't all addicted to porn themselves.

 

Feel bad for this Michael guy.  The guilt people can incur over porn addiction is shameful.  Sexual repression is wrong.  How I loathe Christianity.

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For anyone interested here are the lyrics to 'Healer' by Michael Guglielomucci as discussed in  the two  posts above. This is an incredibly moving song for those who have very real illnesses and are desperate for healing. This is why it is such a deceptive and harmful song in light the songwriters story. Crazy thing is that almost all the comments on youtube were about how Michael should be forgiven (right on that one at least) and that god used this deception to bring out this amazing 'faith building' song. You know god uses the least of us, and he even used a donkey once blah, blah...This kind of emotional manipulation  causes so many people so much suffering.

 

Healer

 

You hold my every moment
You calm my raging seas
You walk with me through fire
And heal all my disease

I trust in You
I trust in You

I believe You're my Healer
I believe You are all I need
I believe You're my Portion
I believe You're more than enough for me
Jesus You're all I need

My Healer, You're my Healer

Nothing is impossible for You
Nothing is impossible for You
Nothing is impossible for You
You hold my world in Your hands

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A few years ago I posed a question to a (secular) general practitioner in a casual environment where we stood as equals.

"So, What's your take on Western medicine vs. alternative medicine or other kinds of healing?  Do you cross over to alternative treatments if you think they might be better for a patient?  What in your opinion really works to treat people?"

He said, "I've found it's what ever the patient believes will work."

 

Not the answer I wanted to hear.  It put too much responsibility on me.  What, we can believe ourselves to health?  If you look into it, there is evidence to support it.  Ouch.

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You should read this: http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/sima_nan_fighting_qigong_pseudoscience_in_china

 

I don't think anyone is actually healed by this alternative medicine stuff, except by placebo effect, which of course does have some benefits. 

 

I think some of these people are outright frauds; others might actually believe they're channeling some mystical power. 

 

I'd say people who were healed:

 

1. weren't very sick in the first place, or

2. they believed they were more severely sick than they were, so it was more psychological than physical, or

3. they were hypochondriacs, or

4. they WERE sick at some point, but their bodies had healed on their own, but they still had the habit of staying in bed all day. 

 

And they bought into the "cure" and it worked like hypnotherapy; to please the person "healing" them, they made an effort to get up and walk or feel better, plus all the positive attention paid to them during a healing spectacle causes a flood of endorphins in their brain that do actually make them feel a bit better in that moment. 

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 "I've found it's what ever the patient believes will work."

 

Not the answer I wanted to hear.  It put too much responsibility on me.  What, we can believe ourselves to health?  If you look into it, there is evidence to support it.  Ouch.

 

The mind is a very powerful instrument.......  you are so right.  At least there is some evidence that we can be the masters of our own life by using our brains in the right way. I remember calling in sick to work a few times in my life. After, I finally made the call, I actually was 'suffering' in some way and had to go lay down. I remember my best friend who walked out of her 'walker' one night at church. She had been using it for a long time because of her hip problems.The atmosphere was set. The emotions were running high - really high.. She dropped her walker and danced all over the church.  The whole place went crazy. I was 'slain in the spirit' because of the high emotion that night. Two days later, she was back using her 'walker' until she have the hip replacement operation. For some reason, she  got brave in her mind and could dance that one night? You are right Voice - the mind can be very, very powerful.

 

One of my customers daughters faked a pregnancy for 5 months and actually took on the look of a very pregnant girl. She did this to get her boyfriend to marry her.

 

I remember back when I had the whole city of Kelowna B.C praying the night my sister had the brain aneurism that took her life. The prayer chain went throughout the whole city. I guess god was busy with the starving children that night?

 

I just watched the vineyard video. I went to the Vineyard church for over a year. I owned every Vineyard music cassette tape. I used to walk with my 'Sony'  and praise the lord with all these songs. They still make me cry, they are so emotional. I watch the sincerity of those in the audience. I used to be one of those people lifting my hands to the lord with tears streaming down my face because I was so grateful that he loved this 'sinner'.

 

Wow...... this stuff still triggers me to a certain degree. Maybe it always will.

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I remember back when I had the whole city of Kelowna B.C praying the night my sister had the brain aneurism that took her life. The prayer chain went throughout the whole city. I guess god was busy with the starving children that night?

 

The numbers are different for collective prayer/meditation/projection when it comes to influencing a third party, and to even less an extent, willing health on a third party.  There are mass meditations that take place, I believe in the name of peace, when lower crime rates coincide with the meditations.  There are incidents which may or may not be coincidence where collective concentration may affect the health of someone (as your example with the chair-bound lady dancing), but inconsistent enough, less in number than incidents where collective concentration fails.  Probability wise, it's not likely that a collective meditation can heal a person.  Mostly it's about the person themselves, where they are, what they can/will do.

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Placebo effect is very powerful, I do not doubt that. And I am even open to occasional so called 'miracles' that so far have no explanation in science. Weird stuff goes on all the time and I am open to new hypothesis as to how. I guess I have a bee in my bonnet over the emotional manipulation of people; 'believe and you will be healed' and of you're not it is your fault. This is a soul destroying experience. What about the people who get high off worship,believe they are healed, experience the joy, relief and gratitude only to wake up the next day or so and find it was a lie. I have been there you feel so small, so disappointed and embarrassed. What about the people who believed Michael's story and used it as a faith life raft to get through a tough time only to find out it was a fraud. Because I was so deeply desperate for healing myself it deeply confused and distressed me to find out the truth but perhaps sent me on the pathway to deconversion.  It's a mind fuck.  

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It is a blow to find that after you believe you've believed and nothing happens.  My dad's brother lost his wife to cancer under a faith healing attempt and he was told his faith wasn't strong enough.  It devastated him for years.  He wouldn't re-marry.

 

The thing about believing a treatment will work for you and having it work, is that it's independent of what faith you are or if you even have faith in a faith.  You can be agnostic and still have something work because you believe it will.  This phenomenon underlies religions.  It's more like a ground level phenomenon that drives us all, while religion is built on top of it, on stilts, to look pretty and draw attention and distract from the ground below.

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