Israel Question

[DarthKoopa]

I have a question about Israel. I do not know what to say about the assertion that the six day war and reformation of Israel were prophesied correctly in the bible. I admit I don’t even know where to find this in scripture.

My guess is that Israel becoming a nation again was a self fulfilled prophesy.

Any thoughts on this?

 

 

[Ravenstar]

There is some topic here that discusses that... maybe Jose's end times prophecy topic (?)

 

But when looked at properly you are probably correct that it was self-fulfilling, and I don't believe it actually fulfills the scriptural thing either. Someone else will have to explain it since it is one of the things I haven't actually studied yet.

 

However I do remember that the modern state of Israel... is not Israel... it's closer to the nation of Judah in the OT... much of it is missing and since the Muslims control the old temple grounds and have their most holy Mosque there - I would say that's not exactly a fulfillment of prophecy.

 

I don't think there are any 'accurate' prophecies in the Bible though... at least I haven't heard of one that is supported by facts.

[Overcame Faith]

What follows is a post I made on the subject in another thread.  I have cut and pasted it here for your consideration.  I hope it helps:

 

End-timers generally see the formation of the modern State of Israel in 1948 as the single most important prophetic event telling them that Jesus’ return is imminent.  What is their basis for saying this?  For many, it is the following:

 

Quote

³² “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. ³³ Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it^[e] is near, right at the door.

Matthew 24:32-33

The end-timers contort these verses by saying that the fig tree represents Israel and, in their minds, since Israel was re-established in 1948, they assert that the end “…is near, right at the door.”  But notice something very important.  In these verses the words attributed to Jesus did not, as they could have, say that when “Israel” is re-established, the end is near.  Rather, the end-timers, being convinced that these “prophecies” refer to our times, search out obscure Old Testament passages which compare Israel to a fig tree and from there add words to the Matthew verses which are not there to try to make their point.

But let’s go with what the end-timers assert (though it is nonsense) and assume for the sake of this discussion that Matthew 24:32-33 actually refers to the re-established modern State of Israel and see if their further assertion that modern State of Israel fulfills this “prophecy”.  To go further, we must examine Old Testament “prophecies” for the rebirth of Israel.  There are a number of them, but for the sake of time and space, I will refer to Ezekiel 37.

 

Ezekiel 37 begins with Ezekiel being shown a dry valley full of bones.  After some directions from God to Ezekiel which Ezekiel followed, the bones “…came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.”  Ezekiel 37:10.  God then explains to Ezekiel who these people are.  He said, “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel.”  Ezekiel 37:11.  Note something very important in the words used.  God said the bones are the people of Israel.  Why is that so important?  The answer comes as we continue in Ezekiel 37.  However, before we go any further, a short review of history as told in the Bible is in order.  Please note that I specified that it is a history as told in the Bible and I am not saying it is true history, because it is not.  With that understanding, I will proceed.

King David’s reign is considered to be the golden age of the history of Israel.  Recall that the Bible asserts that there were twelve tribes of which the Jews (from the tribe of Judah) were only one.  What David managed to do was to unite all twelve tribes into one nation called Israel.  As time went by, there was a rebellion and ten of the tribes split off and became the Northern Kingdom of Israel and two of the tribes (Judah and Benjamin) became the Kingdom of Judah.  1 Kings 12.  Thus, all that David had accomplished by uniting the twelve tribes came to naught and the tribes were separated into two nations.

As time went on, the Northern Kingdom of Israel was defeated by the Assyrians and the tribes who lived there were carried off and never heard from again.  The Assyrians then resettled the country with others.  2 Kings 17.

 

With this brief “Biblical History”, we can understand the remainder of Ezekiel 37.  After the people of Israel were brought back to life in the valley of the bones, God showed Ezekiel what he would accomplish.  He did this through having Ezekiel prepare sticks of wood as described below:

 

 

Quote

¹⁵ The word of the Lord came to me: ¹⁶ “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ ¹⁷ Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

 

Ezekiel 37:15-17

God then explained what the significance of the symbol he instructed Ezekiel to make.  It was that all the people of Israel, that is, all twelve tribes, will be returned and there will be one Kingdom.  And this single Kingdom composed of all twelve tribes would be ruled over by King David.  Ezekiel 37:18-28.  In other words, this “prophecy” was that, not just the Tribe of Judah (or the Jews) would be returned, but all twelve tribes would be returned and form a single nation exactly as King David had ruled over during the golden age of Israel.

Now, to take it back to Matthew 24:32-33 which I quoted above.  If we assume that this is a “prophecy” for the re-establishment of Israel, then for it to be fulfilled, the following must happen:

 

1.  All twelve tribes of Israel must have, in fact, existed (which is highly doubtful).

2.  Assuming they did, in fact, exist, they must all be identified.  And I do not mean just the Jews (tribe of Judah), but all twelve tribes.

3.  All twelve tribes so identified, must return to the same kingdom of Israel as ruled over by King David.  That means, of course, that it must be the exact same borders as when Kind David ruled.

4.  The re-established Israel must be ruled over by King David.  I’ll be generous and say that Ezekiel 37 does not mean the actual King David, but a direct father to son descendant of King David.

 

The question is does the modern State of Israel fulfill all of these requirements?  The answer is obvious – it does not.  The modern State of Israel is composed of only a single tribe (if we assume there were tribes in the first place) and that is the tribe of Judah (the Jews) and perhaps some Levites.  The borders of the modern State of Israel do not come even close to being the same borders as King David is said to have ruled over.  Finally, the modern State of Israel is not ruled over by Kind David (or one of his descendants).  Therefore, the re-establishment of the modern State of Israel has no significance from a “prophetical” standpoint at all.  It only has significance from a “prophetical” standpoint because end-timers are trying to take modern day events and mold them into the fulfillment of their view of prophecy.  But it doesn’t work.

 

[DarthKoopa]

Thank you Overcame Faith. That was extreamly thought out and helpful.

[RipVanWinkle]

I think it was a self fulfilled prophesy in a way. Harry Truman was approached by a long time Jewish

friend after the War and the man pleaded for Truman to help. Truman agreed to do so, and the rest is

history. Of course the murder of 6 million Jews contributed enormously. So much so that nobody of any

importance gave a thought to the Palestinians who lived there. bill

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Another never mentioned OT prophecy is  very clear in stating that Damascus will be destroyed and never rebuilt. It still remains one of the major cities in the middle east. And shows no signs of being destroyed.

[duderonomy]

Another never mentioned OT prophecy is  very clear in stating that Damascus will be destroyed and never rebuilt. It still remains one of the major cities in the middle east. And shows no signs of being destroyed.

 

True, but have you been keeping an eye on Syria lately?

 

If the Muslim Brotherhood that now controls Egypt (with all of the tanks and jet fighters that the USA just sold them, paid for with money that the USA also gave them), and the Muslim Brotherhood that also now controls Lybia, and with the USA's support for Al-Quieda (however it's spelled) lending support to the concern that The Muslim Brotherhood will soon be the government of Syria, who is to say that Israel won't be attacked again from all sides, and should conventional weapons fail, respond with a nuclear attack against a city (say, Damascus)?

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

 

Another never mentioned OT prophecy is  very clear in stating that Damascus will be destroyed and never rebuilt. It still remains one of the major cities in the middle east. And shows no signs of being destroyed.

 

True, but have you been keeping an eye on Syria lately?

 

If the Muslim Brotherhood that now controls Egypt (with all of the tanks and jet fighters that the USA just sold them, paid for with money that the USA also gave them), and the Muslim Brotherhood that also now controls Lybia, and with the USA's support for Al-Quieda (however it's spelled) lending support to the concern that The Muslim Brotherhood will soon be the government of Syria, who is to say that Israel won't be attacked again from all sides, and should conventional weapons fail, respond with a nuclear attack against a city (say, Damascus)?

 

Selffulfilled prophecy. And the Bible clearly indicates that it would happen in a closer time range than that. You see, OT prophecies all prophecise things about to happen in their own time. So we're talking a prediction that the Assyrians, who are now long gone, would invade and destroy Damascus. And if you wait for something to happen long enough, and its possible, it will happen, that's no prophecy, that's stating the obvious.

 

I predict that someday Beijing and New York City will be destroyed and never rebuilt! There, I prophecized it too! I will be right someday too, just watch. Cities come and go, like they always have, and this wasn't new knowledge to ancient israelites, it wasn't even knew to the sumerians who predate them.

 

But since my prophecy in the someday undefined future will come true, and its obvious it will, does it make me a prophet? Divine? Divine authority? No. It just means that I know that nothing lasts forever.

[DarthKoopa]

Babonian Dream. Thank you for the info. Do you know where I can find the Damascus prophecy in the OT?

Thanks

[LivingLife]

DarthKoopa, slightly off topic but simple math refutes Israel as a legitimate or prophetic nation. Have Excel? Do this yourself.

 

Ignoring genetics, assume two only surviving PAIRS of breeder Jews from the war circa 70CE, they breed, each have 5 children that survive to each have 5 children and so on. At any one time, 3 generations are alive.

 

I did this and there should be approx 450M+ of them since the diaspora, there are only 15M. They do not look middle eastern and there is the conversion to Judaism in Turkey (Askari Jews or something like that more recent than ancient times) Not one Jewish Rabbi has been able to explain WHY there are so few of them, the holocaust was not IT.

 

They claim a common gene but if they all originate from Turkey, that will be a no brainer.

 

They all learn the torah parrot fashion, much like the muslims that memorise the qu'ran. They have Rabbis that tell them what it all means just like the oral traditions of the RCC. All three faiths are a huge mindfuck and nothing else.

 

As for the prophesies mentioned, this is reading into texts that we do not really know how legitimate they are seeing we do know there has been a lot of editing and tampering. Prior to the council of Nicea circa 350CE, the history of texts is very questionable.

 

Based on how the OT temple shit was performed and the tribe of Levi being in charge of the temple, there is no way they can institute temple 3.0 as wished for by the fundies. Not to mention, Israel has banned animal sacrifice. Even the Orthodox fucktards have no idea how to do temple shit and not to mention again, WHERE IS THE FUCKING ARK?????

 

Well the xians sorted that missing artefact out in Revelation. It is now conveniently back with FUCKWEH in heaven, like he really needs it to run his eternal church dick sucking service huh?

 

You see, it is all revisionist as that is what you do when people start asking questions.

 

Lastly, why would creator of all reveal his shit to a bunch idiot desert nomads and ignore the largest population of that era, the Chinese.

 

I mean after creating this earth and universe where there are fucking awesome spots around the world, he chooses the ME sandpit to "reveal himself"??? Really??

 

That sounds like a god with dementia to me. He belongs in an old age home.

 

That of course could explain why he gets away with contradicting himself so much in the babble, he haz Alzheimer's disease, OR folk just kept on making shit up as they went along.

 

The claim of teh jews of the Exodus is BS. It never happened, camels and donkeys do not eat quail or manna and their so called 2-6M jews in exodus, at the time, was a population greater than China, not to mention their daily water requirements would be in modern terms, a convoy of 20 ton water trucks 8.5km long, nose to tail just for the humans, back then they only had camels and donkeys.

 

There are no answers in the babble, only BS backed up by BS

 

Of course, under the influence of Koolaide, it all makes perfect sense...