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Goodbye Jesus

The Passion Of Ayn Rand


Margee

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I have some training in mental health. I looked at the Wikipedia article that is linked above. I consider it dangerous to use it for self-diagnosis (or other-diagnosis) because it appears to be put together by laypeople. It takes highly trained professionals to correctly diagnose mental illness.

 

Just now I looked up some professional websites on mental health. Mayo Clinic's website looks the most user-friendly but one should still consult a doctor if there are concerns.

 

Back on-topic. I'm studying Ayn Rand's writing and would enjoy serious discussion on it--answers to my above questions would be helpful. Thank you.

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I read 2 of her books I guess.  Anthem, which I loved, and The Fountainhead, which I loved.  I did not see anything like what people say about her characters, rather just fiercely independent and successful people struggling to make it.  When I first heard these arguments about her it was news to me.  I deeply related to Howard Roark, he was so much like me.  At the beginning of the book when he was being expelled from architecture school, I said out loud, "holy shit, this guy is me!"

 

Since then I've come to learn that I lack social skills.  It's my brother who's the successful narcissist.  I'm the failure.  Persons who are failures can not afford to be like Howard Roark.  I'm no longer like that; being like that was the reason for my failure.  What I need is social skills and to learn collaboration.

 

I did see the movie, Atlas Shrugged.

I've read nothing of Rand's philosophy.

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Say what you will about Ms. Rand, but as with Moses and L. Ron Hubbard's writings, her fiction has also spawned a religion.

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I read 2 of her books I guess.  Anthem, which I loved, and The Fountainhead, which I loved.  I did not see anything like what people say about her characters, rather just fiercely independent and successful people struggling to make it.  When I first heard these arguments about her it was news to me.  I deeply related to Howard Roark, he was so much like me.  At the beginning of the book when he was being expelled from architecture school, I said out loud, "holy shit, this guy is me!"

 

Since then I've come to learn that I lack social skills.  It's my brother who's the successful narcissist.  I'm the failure.  Persons who are failures can not afford to be like Howard Roark.  I'm no longer like that; being like that was the reason for my failure.  What I need is social skills and to learn collaboration.

 

I did see the movie, Atlas Shrugged.

I've read nothing of Rand's philosophy.

 

Successful narcissists are failures where it really matters.The problem with your culture is it believes the opposite. Your government is full of uncaring narcissists, and it has spread like a disease across the land. "making it" is a terrible and stupid lie that polarises and teaches people to judge. it is like going into adulthood thinking the cool kids at high school were the success stories. no, they were just self centred assholes, but some genius decided at some point that is what people are meant to emulate. SO fucked up.

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I read 2 of her books I guess.  Anthem, which I loved, and The Fountainhead, which I loved.  I did not see anything like what people say about her characters, rather just fiercely independent and successful people struggling to make it.  When I first heard these arguments about her it was news to me.  I deeply related to Howard Roark, he was so much like me.  At the beginning of the book when he was being expelled from architecture school, I said out loud, "holy shit, this guy is me!"

 

Since then I've come to learn that I lack social skills.  It's my brother who's the successful narcissist.  I'm the failure.  Persons who are failures can not afford to be like Howard Roark.  I'm no longer like that; being like that was the reason for my failure.  What I need is social skills and to learn collaboration.

 

I did see the movie, Atlas Shrugged.

I've read nothing of Rand's philosophy.

 

I read "The Art of Fiction: A Guide for Writers and Readers" and found it really helpful along with other books. Now I'm halfway through Foundainhead. It's very different from other fiction of that era--the language is more like novels written in the last ten years. I'm just flabbergasted. I guess if she had been writing in the last ten years she would have written about computer technology (or something similar) rather than architecture. There's other little things that remind me that it was written 80 years ago.

 

I like Howard Roarke, too, most of the time. When he sits for months on end waiting for a commission to come in I think it's probably not quite realistic. However, she does not pretend to write about what is but about what she thinks could be. I understand she is comparing the ordinary man (Peter Keating) with the ideal man (Howard Roarke). Every time we talk about things like the "ideal man" we talk about things so abstract and personal that it is difficult to: 1. pin it down, 2. be sure two people are talking about the same thing, and 3. find anyone who agrees with anyone else on the matter.

 

A person cannot write (or make any decisions in life) without incorporating philosophy of some kind. Ayn Rand writes from the premise that normal people don't believe in god.

 

I'm finding parts of the book boring to the extent that I wonder why I read it. Then I remind myself that my aim is to learn writing skills from classical authors of the past so I plow on. I guess her "religion" is not catching on with me, florduh, though you admit she did something right when it came to writing--otherwise her books would never have been used in the theatre and later made into movies. Much less would a "religion" have developed from her ideas. I don't know the others you mentioned.

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Voice, I'm reading your post again.

 

Howard Roarke lacked social skills big time.

 

Of course, he's just a fictional made-up character and I'm not sure if he's totally consistent throughout. In a few places, I think Rand portrays him as having more people skills than he normally demonstrates.

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I like Howard Roarke, too, most of the time. When he sits for months on end waiting for a commission to come in I think it's probably not quite realistic. However, she does not pretend to write about what is but about what she thinks could be. I understand she is comparing the ordinary man (Peter Keating) with the ideal man (Howard Roarke). Every time we talk about things like the "ideal man" we talk about things so abstract and personal that it is difficult to: 1. pin it down, 2. be sure two people are talking about the same thing, and 3. find anyone who agrees with anyone else on the matter.

 

His sitting around waiting for a commission is totally realistic.  I'm in drywall, but I hate production drywall.  I sit around exactly like that, broke most of the time and for months, waiting for the jobs that require real artistry and craftsmanship and that pay more.  Jobs that require integrity.  And then often it ends up being someone who seeks me out because of this.

 

I was blown away by the ease with which she builds all of his radical, creative structures so clearly and simply for us to see.  She worked at an architecture firm for a time when writing this book - research.

 

I do want to add that I hated the end.  I went ranting around for quite a while after it and now I have a summary rant that's standard in discussions of The Fountainhead.  I won't spoil it for you, unless my just saying I hated it spoils it.  Hope not.

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Got your message, Voice. I'll reply later when I have more time.

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I absolutely hate Ayn Rand's philosophy.  And you know, the interesting thing is, I can't even tell you what I read of hers now that led me to that conclusion!  It has been many years ago. 

 

I do recall that in the beginning I thought there were good things about Objectivism. 

 

I suppose we all come to conclusions about various things over the course of life.

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How are you coming with The Fountainhead, R. S. Martin?  I'm anxious to hear your thoughts.  You were correct about the Colosseum, this is the place to talk about it openly.

 

To Florduh and the others who passionately express distaste for Rand, I'd like to hear more from you in support of your positions.  I've tried reading up on this religion of hers, and I don't get it.  Objectivism doesn't look like a religion to me, unless it represents some secret society.  Isn't objectivism just a philosophy?

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 I've tried reading up on this religion of hers, and I don't get it.

 

The "religion" is Libertarianism. Sarcasm.

 

I don't have any particular distaste for Rand. I just think it's amusing that a political party was based on her fiction. Of course Rand wanted nothing to do with the politicos who worshiped her.

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It is a philosophy, but I guess any philosophy can be made into a religion.

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Florduh and Deva, thanks for your responses to Voice's post. I admit I'd been avoiding this thread because I thought it was just unsubstantiated ranting and I was unable to handle that. I can appreciate that a person has a right not to like a certain author.

 

Voice, if you're interested I'll get back to you when I get to the end of The Foundainhead. A couple other things came up the last few days to delay my reading. I don't want to know the end ahead of time but I was surprised to see Howard Roarke and Gail Wynand become friends--or being friendly. The point I'm at, Howard seems to be the only person smart enough to gain Wynand's respect. I personally am not smart enough to figure out why what he did got Wynand to back down from "destroying" him but it did--at least so far that's the way it appears. Dominique may prove to be smarter than Wynand, too.  

 

That's the problem with fiction, especially when you know the author is tweaking reality in the name of improving human ambition. As the author, you can make one man the ruthless ruler of a publishing empire whose workers put up with everything, another a brilliant social reject who never despairs or starves despite what life throws at him, and you can have people who know what everyone else is thinking without anyone telling them--especially a woman who slips out of one marriage into another like she does her dresses. If you've got the tension just right, you've got people sitting on the edge of their seats, turning pages, wanting to know what comes next--if this really works out, etc. Whether there ever have been real people like those three is not something I'm prepared to say at this point.

 

Rand comes up with terms and phrases or articles of clothing I didn't know existed in the 1920s and 30s--such as "hell" for a swear word and turtleneck shirts. But I think her way of developing characters is, at bottom, a product of her times. The way she describes human faces and bodies is rather outmoded, but in line with other authors of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I can almost smell the whiskey and horse harness leather in those descriptions. I find it a bit crude. That same goes for some of her descriptions regarding physical mannerisms and speaking.

 

Then I realize that this woman, who learned English at the age of 20, was writing complicated thousand-page novels with the fluency of a native-born English-woman--novels that continue being read and loved 85 years later. Jane Austen was at least born English. No wonder people either love or hate Ayn Rand, with little in between. She must have been quite a woman, a power to reckon with in her own time as well as now.

 

Anyway, Voice, I'm right about at the place in the book where Roarke agrees to "build" Courtland Homes for Keating. In the background, Dominique is scheming to get Roarke and we know Roarke is in love with her. I can't imagine him married to anyone but the way she slipped from being married to Keating into being Wynand's wife, I'd expect anything. Ayn Rand has a way of pulling off the unexpected. Make that the unconventional.

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I finished The Fontainhead. I would say Howard Roarke was true to himself and his principles to the end.

 

I'm not sure how politically correct it is to say this, but if there's a moral to this story it seems to be that in the end the good win and the bad lose--that if you're honest from the very depth of your being and never waver from that inner integrity you're going to mold life to your Self. Eventually.

 

Some people--the Peter Keatings and Elseworth Tooheys of this world--will always hate you but you don't stop just because of them. You will eventually gain admirers, even supporters, and if you're lucky may find one or two kindred spirits.

 

Life is lonely for people like Howard Roarke but they get to do what they love most and they're good at it, too.

 

That's what the book seems to say. I can't vouch for it's truthfulness in real life.

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