Stupid Christians

[- AUB -]

I wasn't referring to your position Bruce which I have no problem with, but jdrobins2000 and his "understanding" of science based on creationist misinformation. A tragic thing in xtianity, but rather odd with a deist. The xtian fear and hatred of science is one of its most pathetic elements, but as long as you respect science, and go down a more metaphysical or philosophical route to find a "prime mover" then that's OK, there's nothing dishonest about that, its purely a matter of opinion to be debated at leisure.

 

I would posit that no reasons I could give for my belief in the existence of a deity would suffice for you AUB.

 

Very perceptive, but I’m always happy to hear a good argument, it certainly beats listening to xtian drivel. There’s something about straw-men that annoys me more than any other fallacy. All that “macro evolution” crap recited as it it was a part of science, I don’t understand how a non-xtain can even stand to read that stuff, let alone repeat it. Anyway Bruce I don't attack deism, just people afflicted by annoying memes.

[Celsus]

Sorry AUB, that is what I get for making an assumption. How JD is coping is familiar to me, it is difficult to transition from a faith system that gives you all the answers, to finding them yourself. JD is walking a path that I have and I appreciate. That path leads to a coherent world-view and it is arrived at one step at a time, sometimes falling into potholes.

 

Bruce

[Asimov]

Ever notice how every other belief except Christianity is widely accepted by the growing, non-Christian world with little or no resistance. Regardless of which one thinks is the true belief, or form thereof? Regardless of logic and truth?

This fact alone just sings that something is amiss.

JMHO though. I am certainly not judging nor condemning anyone for what they believe. Even murderous factions of Islam get less resistance than Christians. I wonder why this is?

What is really astonishing to watch is others blaming a Christian individual for errors others have made in the past. Errors or foolishness that often come from people individual Christians do not know, or have ever conversed with. But yet, they are automatically placed into a single demographic profile of those who judge and condemn, when the very act of placing them in this profiles judges and condemns. And this is almost entirely overlooked, even when very vile and foul tongues are directed by the accuser to those they accuse of being judgemental and condemning.

Again, just an open view here, not directed at any particular belief or individual.

 

Richard.

 

 

What are you saying??

[Desert Walker]

Just simply sharing a neutral view of observation here about expectation. These questions often hit me. For example:

If you tried to share what you believed to be correct and true to another, knowing this truth to be rather firm or hard, how would you do so without appearing to be hurtful, biased, or even hateful to the listener? Many times, Christians have a loving and selfless heart when sharing hard truths (or thier own belief of these truths) and get deemed things they are not. But the nature of the truth they share simply makes things appear this way. Then things begin to unfold. The listener, being offended and hurt about what the Christian is saying deems the Christian judgemental. And often, things are directed at him which are hurtful and judgemental as well. And often, it is here the bridge construction to understanding crumbles apart. It just seems that some who ask things of others are all but totally unwilling to give the same back in return. And things quickly hit a dead end. I just often wish there was a far more better and loving way to bridge our personal beliefs and concepts without this sudden destruction. Without love, what do you have? Senseless evil which only leads to chaos and strife. If we open our eyes, ears, minds, and especially hearts to others, and make wholesome efforts fight back these feelings of repulsion and offense, then maybe the bridge construction would occur long enough for a bridge to be fully built.

That's all I'm saying.

Peace!

Richard.

[Cerise]

You know, that wouldn't be an entirely bad thing.  At least, it would be a true excuse to give to some guy who flirts with you and he's not your type. And maybe, more marriages would last longer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well it would be a marriage that would never fall through due to fire hazard in any case. Though I would be turned off by the constant eau de dog urine myself.

 

Richard, do you tell people "hard truths" when they ask for them, or when you deem it neccessary for them to know? And it is a bit difficult for me, as a non-Christian, to see these as "hard truths" rather then "hard (and unwanted) opinions". Kind of like a person coming up to you on the street to tell you that your shirt is ugly. It never engenders a great response.

 

 

jdrobins, asking me for substence after giving me a dictionary definition that define a deity as a god seems a bit ironic to me.

[Desert Walker]

Wanna know a secret?

The truth (and the things we believe is true) cuts and hurts Christians too. They were born with the very same feelings and sensitivities as anyone else. But it is how we allow this cut to heal which determines what fills the void. If we allow infections of discomfort to irritate the wounds, it will remain a continuously hurting sore upon us.

But if we allow the wound to be properly healed, a tougher skin will grow over and fill the void, leaving the skin more resistant to future cuts. Some medicinal applications and ointments are as follows:

Large doses of love.

Huge quantities of patience.

Evenly spread wisdom.

Heavy doses of longsuffering.

A vial of vile-free courtesy.

And most of all, efforts of warm relation.

And one doesn't need a bible for these foundational cures.

 

Everyone essentially has the very same basic desires and trials. And often, sacrificing these things for a better outcome down the road is very hard to do....

And it does not take a bible or any other handbook to tell us this. Our hearts should 'instintively' tell us this.

 

Spoken in only love and warmth,

Richard.

[Desert Walker]

I myself was an atheist for most of my life. I too had these very same feelings about Christians. But it wasn't until I began learning the over-all value of this new life that I began to truly grasp the purpose of these very same hard truth I also rebelled against not too long ago. In fact, I am not even truly a year old yet in this new life. But aside from these hardships, I would not trade this awesome discovery for any amount of riches or pleasures this old world has to offer. Not even if my life depended on it.

Once again, I as a newborn Christian am not responsible for the foolishness other Christians have done to others in the past. But I do not allow the shadows of this pain from others to invade my new light. That only leads me back into the very same empty darkness I am all too familiar with. And as any newborn child, Christians will make mistakes as they grow and mature. It's just a sad shame their mistakes leave such an immense impact on others who may be trying to learn these values as well. Here's an example:

I do not particularly like the "act" of the gay. But at the same time, I have discovered that many gay people have softer hearts than that of the common macho man who emits an image that is not himself to attract a mate. In fact, I get along very well with gay people. Even though I may dislike their choice, I love the fruits of their hearts. And I am a sinner as well. As the bible truly is right about, no sin is worse than another. Committing murder is no better or worse than telling a lie. Sin is sin, even if we don't see it as such. And if others cannot grasp certain concepts of the many diverse natures of sin, it is often best just to let them continue on their way and pray they find another path down the road. Slamming the Christian laws and concepts into the mind of a fellow sinner only makes them become more deeply rooted and even rebellious. I just wish more Christians held this type of wisdom and common sense. This is precisely why we must fight with only a sword of love ourselves, and do our best to set aside our own sin natures that we too battle daily. Sin + sin = sin X 2. That's a good formula to keep in mind.

[Cerise]

First of all, I want it made prefectly clear that Christians do not have the monopoly on love.

 

Secondly, your sentiment, that you love the gay (as if it were another species or a disease or something) despite their "choice" displays that you neither understand, nor wish to understand homosexuality. The "fruits of the heart" of a homosexual are to love, physically and mentally, the fruits of the heart of another of the same sex. You cannot hate that part of their hearts without hating the whole.

 

Thirdly, if you truly believe that mass murder is equal to lying, there is no help for you here. We cannot ever understand each other.

 

Forthly, I am often disappointed by Christians, but it is not that disappointment which caused me to turn away so to speak. Rather, your God disappointed me greatly, and this large disappointment is reflected in the mouths and actions of Christians.

[Asimov]

Just simply sharing a neutral view of observation here about expectation. These questions often hit me. For example:

If you tried to share what you believed to be correct and true to another, knowing this truth to be rather firm or hard, how would you do so without appearing to be hurtful, biased, or even hateful to the listener? Many times, Christians have a loving and selfless heart when sharing hard truths (or thier own belief of these truths) and get deemed things they are not. But the nature of the truth they share simply makes things appear this way. Then things begin to unfold. The listener, being offended and hurt about what the Christian is saying deems the Christian judgemental. And often, things are directed at him which are hurtful and judgemental as well. And often, it is here the bridge construction to understanding crumbles apart. It just seems that some who ask things of others are all but totally unwilling to give the same back in return. And things quickly hit a dead end. I just often wish there was a far more better and loving way to bridge our personal beliefs and concepts without this sudden destruction. Without love, what do you have? Senseless evil which only leads to chaos and strife. If we open our eyes, ears, minds, and especially hearts to others, and make wholesome efforts fight back these feelings of repulsion and offense, then maybe the bridge construction would occur long enough for a bridge to be fully built.

That's all I'm saying.

Peace!

Richard.

 

 

What?? What does that have to do with this thread?

[Desert Walker]

First of all, I want it made prefectly clear that Christians do not have the monopoly on love. 

 

Secondly, your sentiment, that you love the gay (as if it were another species or a disease or something) despite their "choice" displays that you neither understand, nor wish to understand homosexuality.  The "fruits of the heart" of a homosexual are to love, physically and mentally, the fruits of the heart of another of the same sex.  You cannot hate that part of their hearts without hating the whole.

 

Thirdly, if you truly believe that mass murder is equal to lying, there is no help for you here.  We cannot ever understand each other.

 

Forthly, I am often disappointed by Christians, but it is not that disappointment which caused me to turn away so to speak.  Rather, your God disappointed me greatly, and this large disappointment is reflected in the mouths and actions of Christians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1st. You are indeed correct. Christians do not have the monopoly on love. It is the other aspect and potential of ourselves we are all born with.

 

2nd. I certainly do not view gay as a disease, another species, or anything that differs from my own self aside from choice. That's simply the way you read me. Thjese boards are a blessing, but they also hinder our true tone and expressions. How do we hear true intent in only written word? We cannot. I don't hate anything about their hearts. I just dislike the sin. Heck, I hate my own sin! That doesn't mean I hate myself. It just means I'm striving for a newfound direction which is only improving my life of misery as each day passes. Also, I am not saying gays are miserable either. This is an example of the very bridge-building difficulty I speak of. Sometimes our own suspicions and stern position hinders our own view when looking upon the construction worker on the other side. The mouths of foolish Christians before me does not sing out the same song which I do my very best to sing correctly. Again, the past mistakes of others should not be blamed upon me as a newborn Christian individual.

 

3rd. The act of mass murder is certainly far worse than telling a lie in our eyes. But in His Eyes, it is "foundationally" the same. Meaning, you will lose your ticket to heaven in the very same way by doing either act. The degree of sin will be judged accordingly on whichever side we die on.

 

4th. Your own experiences with God is a part of your own personal trial. I too have had very bad experiences with Him. Most of my life in fact. I still do at times. But I always bear in mind that regardless of how hard the trials are that He sets before me are purely for my own good. Even when I cannot immediately see the reasons. He's often hard because our stubborn natures are hard. Just as a good parent is hard on their own children to lead them on the right roads of life. The child will often not understand until later. And when he or she matures, they instinctively understand and continue the heritage.

I too used to allow Christians to make me disappointed and turn away. But after over 35 full years of relentless hardship from purely my very own stubburn hurt and rebellion, I FINALLY realized that this was the only true path for me. Just before I surrendered to the full blessing of the Lord, I was very depressed and even suicidal. Why? Because I could find no other road to happiness, and I tried almost all of them. I was out of pavement. So much so, I actually put a loaded gun to my head and pulled the trigger. It misfired for the very first time in all the years I owned that gun. And I lost the nerve to clear and reload. This not only scared me back to my senses, it also caused me to toss that gun. It also opened up the very first door to discovery. One of a golden raod.

Was this a miracle from the Lord? I dunno, friend...

You decide.

Richard.

[Desert Walker]

What does this have to do with this thread?

It was the very title of the thread.

Not all Christians are stupid.

Not by a long shot.

 

Please forgive my sudden intrusion here.

Carry on with the topic.

Richard.

[Asimov]

What does this have to do with this thread?

It was the very title of the thread.

Not all Christians are stupid.

Not by a long shot.

 

Where in the title does it say all christians are stupid?

 

The title says stupid christians. I provided a link where there were some stupid christians....how is that a generalisation?

[Amethyst]

just dislike the sin. Heck, I hate my own sin!

 

Argh, I am so tired of Christians who think being gay is a sin. It has been MORE than proven that it is entirely a NATURAL genetic variation. It is really just an excuse to be bigoted to say it is a sin.

 

It would be like telling an African American "I love you but I hate the color of your skin." Would you ever say that?? I hope not. It is the same, exact thing! Argh...why not just be a Nazi then???

 

I am so tired of people who use religion as an excuse to be bigoted. Please, please, can you people stop being so prejudiced?! Your god is supposedly a god of love, yet you continue to use the religion as an excuse to hate "the sin" -- when really you hate others, yet are too blind to see it.

 

This is one of the main reasons I left. I will have no part of such bigotry. I honestly cannot wrap my brain around it. God said "Love thy neighbor," why do so many Christians assume that means "love thy Straight, White, Middle-Class or Upper Class, Ultra-Conservative, Fundie Neighbor but nobody else?" You're really being very hypocrictical if you do that.

[Desert Walker]

Where in the title does it say all christians are stupid? 

 

The title says stupid christians.  I provided a link where there were some stupid christians....how is that a generalisation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This generalization and view just seems prevalent throughout this board. Simply speaking, I just wanted to share that not all Christians are the hateful, evil-hearted people many seem to automatically see them as. I also shy away from these types of hypocritical Christians, or ones who consider themselves Christian. Mostly, I try my best to discern ones fruit and heart on an individual basis. Christian and non-Christians alike. Not being judgemental. Just observant to the light they shine, or the shadows they leave behind. Everyone has both light and shadow in many diverse ways in many diverse degrees.

[Asimov]

I don't hate anything about their hearts. I just dislike the sin. Heck, I hate my own sin!

 

I missed this....please start a thread about homosexuality...I would like to hear your take on how it is doctrinally a sin, and realistically, a bad thing.

[Asimov]

This generalization and view just seems prevalent throughout this board.

 

I don't notice that. We welcome all Christians, including yourself, BigToe, Paul (tongue in cheek)...etc.

 

Mostly, I try my best to discern ones fruit and heart on an individual basis. Christian and non-Christians alike. Not being judgemental. Just observant to the light they shine, or the shadows they leave behind. Everyone has both light and shadow in many diverse ways in many diverse degrees.

 

Right.

[Guest jdrobins2000]

I wasn't referring to your position Bruce which I have no problem with, but jdrobins2000 and his "understanding" of science based on creationist misinformation. A tragic thing in xtianity, but rather odd with a deist. The xtian fear and hatred of science is one of its most pathetic elements, but as long as you respect science, and go down a more metaphysical or philosophical route to find a "prime mover" then that's OK, there's nothing dishonest about that, its purely a matter of opinion to be debated at leisure.

Very perceptive, but I’m always happy to hear a good argument, it certainly beats listening to xtian drivel. There’s something about straw-men that annoys me more than any other fallacy. All that “macro evolution” crap recited as it it was a part of science, I don’t understand how a non-xtain can even stand to read that stuff, let alone repeat it. Anyway Bruce I don't attack deism, just people afflicted by annoying memes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

AUB, it appears you may not have read the entire thread. To fill you in, I am a former Christian, deconverted about two years ago (I am 26 now). That's a good many years of indoctrination (from my earliest years, including Christian school and college), and I am apparently not yet over that. You also would have known that I read Behe while I was a Christian (probably 7 years ago), and so was left with the impression I had at the time I read it. So, I am a deist now, but just started looking at evolution etc. from my new perspective. So, I thought I'd check out what people here had to say about it. I have never at any point hated or feared science in any regard... it is just that the parts of it I was exposed to and arguments I heard were always from the Christian perspective. And in life, we are often faced with apparent contradictions, and we are forced to make a decision about what to believe based on whatever limited information we have at the time.

 

For instance, I (and almost all other US citizens) don't have first hand knowledge of what goes on in the white house, so when something controversial happens, we must decide whose word to take on what really happened. If I knew someone whom I really trusted, and they said they knew what happened, then I would probably believe them at first, lacking access to a better explanation. If evidence mounted to the contrary, then I would be forced to make a hard decision based on motives that person could have for lying, how convincing the evidence was and why its proponents could be lying or mistaken, etc.

 

Likewise, I have done the best with the information I have seen, and I don't feel stupid for ever having believed Christianity was true. I believed it for a while, until certain catalysts caused me to question more intensely and gave my doubts enough weight to tip the balance of the scale. The flaws grow more and more apparent to me as time passes. I cannot explain to you the excruciating mental anguish of ripping the Christian influence out of my belief system, not to mention the effect this had on my lifestyle. It is tangled in with everything, and it is a very messy process. It has only been my commitment to finding the truth that has driven me to take the harder road, and ironically, the same commitment that drove me as a Christian, so don't accuse all Christians of fearing or hating science or anything rational.

 

There is an interesting condition in the Christian, and I am interested in exploring what is really going on psychologically... but hatred of science (for me at least) was definitely not it. It is more like there is an accumulation of perceived evidence for Christianity which occupies one side of the scale, through constant repetition and reinforcement, and whenever someone places a piece of evidence on the other side of the scale, it cannot compete. For me, it required an intense personal commitment to examining what I thought I knew, to look for holes, and accumulating evidence on the other side that might outweigh the Christian side. Without that intentional questioning, wading through the tough issues, and disregarding the social consequences, most Christians never weigh the evidence fairly. I think for many, this is just too hard of a process, and they are not willing to do it.

 

I have looked at evolution before, but it was always from a Christian slant. I had my mountain of evidence for Christianity, so I was much less skeptical of offered proof against evolution. This is the first attempt I have even made to look at the validity of evolution since my deconversion, as it has not really been a primary concern.

 

Xtians don’t pay any attention to facts, or science, so they're bound to fall for it but a deist has nothing to fear from empiricism, I guess he's just been temporarily fooled.

 

I expect that if Behe is mistaken, I will discover that eventually. I will have to look into it some more, because I like to examine things before accepting them, so I am suspending judgment. But, as I said in a previous post, the arguments against Behe sound very plausible. The devil is in the details, so it will take me a little time to examine the issue.

[Desert Walker]

Argh, I am so tired of Christians who think being gay is a sin. It has been MORE than proven that it is entirely a NATURAL genetic variation. It is really just an excuse to be bigoted to say it is a sin.

 

It would be like telling an African American "I love you but I hate the color of your skin." Would you ever say that?? I hope not. It is the same, exact thing! Argh...why not just be a Nazi then???

 

I am so tired of people who use religion as an excuse to be bigoted. Please, please, can you people stop being so prejudiced?! Your god is supposedly a god of love, yet you continue to use the religion as an excuse to hate "the sin" -- when really you hate others, yet are too blind to see it.

 

This is one of the main reasons I left. I will have no part of such bigotry. I honestly cannot wrap my brain around it. God said "Love thy neighbor," why do so many Christians assume that means "love thy Straight, White, Middle-Class or Upper Class, Ultra-Conservative, Fundie Neighbor but nobody else?" You're really being very hypocrictical if you do that.

 

Again, this is not hate, bigotry, nor any of the like from my behalf. This is simply one of the many written laws of the Christain faith written for us to do our best to follow. We did not write these laws. But as part of our faith, we are commanded to abide by them. You ask Christians to keep silent while you constantly slam them with your own rebuke. This is the echo and mirror I speak of.

Oh well. Such is life I s'pose. I'm off to bed. It's late. Maybe we can disuss this further tomorrow in the light of a new day.

[Amethyst]

Yes, it is hate and bigotry. Why can you people not see that? A great many Christians do NOT believe that law anymore. A great many Christians follow their hearts, and not an ancient book, when it comes to doing what is moral. Prejudice is never morally right. I know this instinctually, I do not have to have someone in a pulpit tell me that.

 

I am rebuking what I see as hate. I have been to extremely conservative churches. I grew up in an extremely conservative church. It is very much prejudice. It is very, very wrong.

 

Please, please at least go do the research on the human genome that exists. Just type it into google and read what comes up. There are tons of articles written on it.

 

Just because something was written in an ancient book 2000 years ago when they knew nothing about science does not make it right. We have learned so much more since then, why can't you people apply current science and adapt with the times? There are many, many Christians who do. I feel sorry for those who don't because they are essentially ignoring reality.

 

Again, this is not hate, bigotry, nor any of the like from my behalf. This is simply one of the many written laws of the Christain faith written for us to do our best to follow. We did not write these laws. But as part of our faith, we are commanded to abide by them. You ask Christians to keep silent while you constantly slam them with your own rebuke. This is the echo and mirror I speak of.

Oh well. Such is life I s'pose. I'm off to bed. It's late. Maybe we can disuss this further tomorrow in the light of a new day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Guest jdrobins2000]

This generalization and view just seems prevalent throughout this board. Simply speaking, I just wanted to share that not all Christians are the hateful, evil-hearted people many seem to automatically see them as. I also shy away from these types of hypocritical Christians, or ones who consider themselves Christian. Mostly, I try my best to discern ones fruit and heart on an individual basis. Christian and non-Christians alike. Not being judgemental. Just observant to the light they shine, or the shadows they leave behind. Everyone has both light and shadow in many diverse ways in many diverse degrees.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This may not earn me points with others on the board, but I'm with you DW. I have no malice for Christians in general, because I understand where you are coming from. I am just convinced that the Christian theology is errant, and can no longer buy into it.

 

The driver for me was that I asked myself "What if (the Christian) God were a figment of my imagination? What would be different?" And I decided that that would actually explain things a lot better than if God were true, in a very simplified nutshell. How it took me so long to figure that out, I'm not sure, but it did.

 

To me, if you are going to believe something, stick to it with integrity. If you think Christianity and the Bible are true, and the Bible says homosexuality is a sin (it does), then to me, you are bound to either believe it is a sin, or figure out something else to believe in. Anything else would be hypocrisy.

 

For the athiests in the crowd, don't even try to debate a Christian on homosexuality, beyond just pointing it out as an issue. It is in the noise, and is not their basis for belief in the first place. Find the core issues, and start there. Just my $.02, anyway.

[Amethyst]

Sigh...

 

I am not an athiest, I am an agnostic. And I will point out bigotry whenever I see it. That is one thing I will stand up for, even if I lose friends over it.

 

For the athiests in the crowd, don't even try to debate a Christian on homosexuality, beyond just pointing it out as an issue. It is in the noise, and is not their basis for belief in the first place. Find the core issues, and start there. Just my $.02, anyway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Desert Walker]

Good counsel with a warm voice. Duly noted jdrobins2000! This is the type of bridge I love to walk upon, regardless of differed views and beliefs.

Thank you! I do not bring these expected seeds of hardness seen by many others. Just love and mutual consideration while holding dear to the laws written for me that I follow. Yes, these laws have been twisted and conformed by others in the past as well. But I am not to blame for their mistakes and mis-guided desires and bigotry. The written laws never change. It is only people who try to change them. And this is very, very wrong and destructive.

[Guest jdrobins2000]

Sigh...

 

I am not an athiest, I am an agnostic.  And I will point out bigotry whenever I see it.  That is one thing I will stand up for, even if I lose friends over it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, just using the term loosely... realized after I posted that I should have said "non-Christian". Rookie mistake, I guess.

 

I was not saying you should not point out the bigotry. You should in fact, and I'm glad you did. I was just pointing out that lengthy debate on that topic is not likely to be very fruitful. To me, when I was a Christian, it just came as part of the package, and in no way did it contribute to my evidence for belief. Ironically, though, to deny it would be to severely weaken the integrity of belief, since that would require denying the Bible's authority. So, it turns out to be a red herring, since it really does not support the belief system, in all but maybe some rare cases.

[Guest jdrobins2000]

Sorry AUB, that is what I get for making an assumption. How JD is coping is familiar to me, it is difficult to transition from a faith system that gives you all the answers, to finding them yourself. JD is walking a path that I have and I appreciate. That path leads to a coherent world-view and it is arrived at one step at a time, sometimes falling into potholes.

 

Bruce

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, it is nice to know I am not alone, and yes there certainly are potholes. Thanks for the replies without derision for not "knowing better" by now. Much appreciation for the empathy.

[Guest digger]

Yeah, it is nice to know I am not alone, and yes there certainly are potholes. Thanks for the replies without derision for not "knowing better" by now. Much appreciation for the empathy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Potholes! I can't even see the road most of the time. Seriously though, All my points of reference have gone. How do you throw out the bathwater and keep the baby? How do you even figure out if there's a baby worth keeping?