What If Tarot Is Real?

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

I agree with, Florduh, only slightly further. Is OC's curiousity real?

 

I think not, past evidence, by his own hand I might add, shows he has no real interest in gaining anything here but feeling important in his sad little world. Expanding your world is scary and he likes the small bubble he is in.

Agreed.

 

I would further point out he obviously does not understand the purpose of this site either.

 

What is the purpose of the Lions Den? Perhaps it is so ex-Christians can feel important?

[Astreja]

What is the purpose of the Lions Den? Perhaps it is so ex-Christians can feel important?

I think it's to keep you from shitting all over the rest of the site and prevent you from harassing people newly escaped from ChristInsanity.

 

Now you tell us something: In a single sentence, why did you come here?

[OrdinaryClay]

 

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

Skeptics of what? There are many types of skeptics here. You know some are only skeptical of Christianity. There are other skeptics like myself that sees all supernatural belief systems as ridiculous. There are several members I can think of offhand that have posted their personal spiritual experiences. That is why there is a forum specifically for Spirituality. I know you only like to post inflammatory topics without any real conversation, but I encourage you to actually read the descriptors and rules for each sub-forum and maybe you would better understand the relationship we all have here.

 

When I said skeptic I meant someone skeptical of the supernatural.

 

I do, and have, read the spirituality forum. I also read the deconversion testomonies of those on the site.

[OrdinaryClay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-hand_path_and_right-hand_path

 

 

The left and right hand paths are really the same dichotomous thinking as hell and heaven,  satan and jesus,  Talos and Lathandar.  The left hand path breaks conventions and taboos just achieve liberation. The right hand path sticks to social conventions to achieve harmony. 

 

 

Tarot, ouija boards, automatic writing, etc. are all tool and in some cases crutches to all the user to "get the personality" out of the way.  This often produces insights that might not have been seen before. They never predict.  They only show probabilities of what might happen or seems to be trending.  That said something that has an 80% probablity is more likely to happen then the other four 5% options. 

 

 

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

 

 

 

You sound like you've studied the subject some? Was this after you lost your faith?

 

 

As to the last, it is and it isn't. The personality that is you will cease existing in anyway that would be considered alive.  That personality will eventually be integrated in to a large whole of which the decease personality is less 1%.   This personality can be accessed like a memory when needed. 

Honestly, how did you come to these conclusions?  Specifically, why do you think Christianity is false and your belief is true?

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

Trolling cats, that's just silly.

 

Err, it was only a picture to make a point as I'm also getting fed up with the nonsense the OP has been spouting for the last few days. The way I see it is that the CAT is accusing someone of trolling. Sorry if it wasn't obvious to you.

 

Then don't read my posts, for goodness sake. The trolling accusation is for people who are unwilling or unable to face other peoples words. No one forces you to read anything on the internet. I post only in the Lions Den and in very few threads in the Lions Den.

[skepticalme]

 

Real? Do you mean that what if tarot cards are possessed by demons? Are they magic? Do they cast spells? 

 

There is NO EVIDENCE for your brand of magic, nor is there for the others. Nevertheless, people seem to like to pretend.

 

What is wrong with you???

The supernatural is by definition beyond the empirical method. There is in fact evidence, albeit not empirical. You may choose to reject that evidence which is your choice. (funny how that verb always comes into play).

 

Based on this evidence it appears that the supernatural is detectable but not repeatable. The best explanation for events that are detectable, but not predictably repeatable is that these result from the actions of free willed entities. A free willed entity can at any time choose not to participate. This is why double blind protocols exist for many experimental trials involving humans.

 

 

Empirical means measurable.  If it is beyond measurment how is that destinguishable from non-existant.  We can measure subatomic particles.  If it is beyond measurment it has less influence than a single electron in the trillion of a AAA batery.  By your definition, if you press a button on your remote control you imposed more influence on the universe by 9 orders or magnitude than god.

 

BTW, not repeatable is indestinguishable from random event.  So by the logic you used above, god if he exist, has less influence then the 50/50 up/down spin of a single electron.

[seeker001]

Someone can be skeptical of the supernatural and yet dabble it, perhaps trying to find a rational explanation for it or maybe just for the lulz. I believe that the supernatural is something that science has yet to be able to explain. At one time people thought thunder and volcanic activity was purely from the wrath of god, but now people know it is just part of the natural cycle of this planet. 

As for the tarot, I don't believe in it, but the subject interesting and I like the designs on some of the cards. I may not see how some cards chosen by chance can predict the future or someone's destiny, but I can see how it can be used to help someone gain some perspective. I'm not going to mock someone for using it if it works for them. I wouldn't mind getting a reading myself out of curiosity

[OrdinaryClay]

 

I'm curious about you though Ordinary Clay, if the left-hand path turned out to be real but Christianity is false, what would you do? Would the occult be something you'd be interested in following or learning about? Would it impact your life and how you live it? Or would you keep it pretty much the same? 

 

I would never under any circumstances imagined, real  or speculative follow the occult.

[mcdaddy]

I'm making a long overdue return to the site only to say one thing:

 

OC, you're still a fucking douchebag of a human being. What little respect I still have left for Xianity, you take, and ninja kick it off the edge of the Grand fucking Canyon.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

Incidentally, when he [OC] claims some here know how real the 'spiritual world' is and are just muting their words, does he mean they're keeping silent intentionally to send others to hell because they're evil?

 

No, OC simply assumes (apparently) that an Ex-C must be an atheist (the jury is still out on whether or not he knows what an agnostic is.) He wants to make the implication that any Ex-C that still holds some kind of spiritual view is being deceived by demonic forces, or even Satan, but doesn't want to say it directly. Instead, he comes at it from the side and will later make the connection for those too blind to see what has happened to them.

 

I know what an agnostic is, and implicit in my OP was the clear assumption that not everyone on this site is an atheist. Also, I'm a devout Christian so obviously I believe there are demonic forces at work in the world and that the occult is rooted in the demonic. That should go without saying.

[OrdinaryClay]

Where is he anyway? Where did OrdinaryClay go?

I'm touched that you care.

[Astreja]

I would never under any circumstances imagined, real  or speculative follow the occult.

Unless, of course, it involves symbolically drinking the blood and eating the corpse of a sacrificed god-man.  Já, nothing occult about that...

[OrdinaryClay]

His narrow mindedness is starting to grate on my nerves. Part of having a debate is being willing to at least humor the other side's point of view. You can't understand your own point of view unless you can at least see where the other side is coming from. From the brief time I've been seeing OC, he debates with a hammer. Yes, it is legitimate to attack an idea in a debate, but you must also take care to address the point of the argument.

 

edit:

Also three words I can respect, "I don't know." If you don't have an answer to something just say so, not knowing something has nothing to do with one's intelligence. It just means it is something one doesn't know, and no one can know everything. It also doesn't mean one's point is completely invalid. This is where one should politely say, "You bring up a very good point, I don't know. [insert speculation here]." This could be an opportunity to learn something new, or see that maybe there is something that should reconsidered. 

Very well said. I agree I do sometimes come across unemotional, and saying I debate with a hammer is probably not to far off the mark at times.

 

That said you need to understand the following fact:

None of this is new to me. When I say I have been through this thought process for decades I'm telling you the truth. When I say I asked myself hard questions I'm telling you the truth. I was determined not to lie to myself. Paul said ...

If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. (1Co 15:19)

 

When I tell you I truly, truly believe I'm telling you the truth. The most important question we can ask ourselves is whether God exists and He is who He says He is. This is not a debate for me.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

 

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

If it was real there would be an enourmous body of evidence that it was real. 

Why do you assume this? We are talking about the supernatural not the natural. You are projecting empirical thinking which is not valid.

 

Actually, if we assume the entities in control of the occult are malicious adversaries then it would follow they would use subterfuge.

[TheUnknown]

 

Then don't read my posts, for goodness sake. The trolling accusation is for people who are unwilling or unable to face other peoples words. No one forces you to read anything on the internet. I post only in the Lions Den and in very few threads in the Lions Den.

 

 

I have every right to comment on what you've posted, just as you've exercised your right to post whatever you please. In fact I very seldom, if ever say anything but you've not only pushed your Christian agenda on us with veiled threats which aren't so subtly disguised, against our will, I may add, but now you've seen fit to mock the beliefs of all the others on here.

 

And FYI this is ex-Christian.net, not Anti-christian.net or Christian.net. You erroneously assume that we are all anti-Christians, when if fact many us us are agnostic, and are just plain indifferent to your god or any other god.

 

As an agnostic, why should I believe your claim anymore than anyone else's claim? Theirs is far less offensive, because at least they don't threaten you with judgment and hell if someone don't accept it.

 

I've also seen for myself how unwilling you are to answer questions, or conveniently dodge them. Especially those asked by people such as BAA. IIRC he's still waiting for you to answer a few of his questions somewhere on this site.

[Guest r3alchild]

OdinaryClay, have you ever asked yourself why god, angels and demons are invisible, does that not set alam bells off for you.

[new2me]

 

So let's say, for argument's sake, that Christianity is real.

 

Wait... which Christianity?  There are thousands of different sects, and most disagree on the most fundamental levels.  Add that to the fact that what we may call Christianity now is practiced quite differently than 1000 years ago.  So were they 'right'?  Or is it 'right' now? And how are we supposed to know?

First, Just because their are many beliefs does not in any way mean the truth does not exist. It's absurd to think so. IOW, you cannot deduce that none are correct simply because there are many beliefs. Second, it is categorically untrue that most denominations disagree on a fundamental level. Third,The idea that one cannot find truth in uncertainty is also bogus. Every human lives their entire life making decisions under uncertainty.

 

You know, it is this kind of thinking that just stuns me. It is scary to think people left Christ because of such fallacious reasoning.

 

First, if your God is true, then he does an extraordinary job of hiding himself among conflicting belief systems.  A loving God would make sure his instructions are clear to everyone.  Do not tell me that the Bible provides clear instruction.  It absolutely does not.

 

Second, If denominations are in such agreement, then there would be no need for them to be in different sects.  I'll bet if you put a Seventh Day Adventist, a Catholic, a Greek Orthodox, and an Assembly of God adherent in the same room, you'd find plenty of fundamental differences in their beliefs.  And those are just a few of the thousands of sects that exist.

 

Third, in terms of finding "truth" about spirituality - well, NO ONE can claim that they know for sure.  And yes, all humans decide for themselves what they think is most likely to be true given the uncertainty that exists in the world, given the evidence that exists.

 

By the way, this is not the reason I left Christianity.  These are just things that I realized after I opened my eyes to the real world.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

What's your point? This is a site for Ex-Christians, not atheists only, or agnostics only. It should come as no surprise that a sizable portion of the membership (and lurkers probably) have some form of belief in, or desire for a spiritual existence. Those who feel such are just as welcome here (from what I can tell) as those who are agnostic or atheist. Even Christians are welcome here so long as they understand that this site is geared to Ex-Christians and comport themselves in accordance with the rules.

 

The only thing you (or any Christian) could say if such spiritual phenomena are real is that they come from a demonic source. So it seems that you are being (once again) somewhat disingenuous with your question.

 

I have little doubt that for those who adhere to a faith other than Christianity that they feel that what they experience as a spiritual encounter is just as real as you think yours is.

 

That brings us back to your question: So what?

It is true I believe these manifestations are demonic, but that does not make my questions disingenuous. Not in the least. If all of these manifestations have a supernatural element than the most likely explanation is that there is a common driver. If there is a common driver we can tease out characteristics and draw conclusions about the motivating factor of these entities. There is no evidence these entities have our best interest in mind. Why do they even interact with us.

 

 

How do you know that your religious experiences are from God then and not demonic?

 

 

That is a great question! I would be interested to see what answer you receive, if you even receive one.

[stryper]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-hand_path_and_right-hand_path

 

 

The left and right hand paths are really the same dichotomous thinking as hell and heaven,  satan and jesus,  Talos and Lathandar.  The left hand path breaks conventions and taboos just achieve liberation. The right hand path sticks to social conventions to achieve harmony. 

 

 

Tarot, ouija boards, automatic writing, etc. are all tool and in some cases crutches to all the user to "get the personality" out of the way.  This often produces insights that might not have been seen before. They never predict.  They only show probabilities of what might happen or seems to be trending.  That said something that has an 80% probablity is more likely to happen then the other four 5% options. 

 

 

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

 

 

 

You sound like you've studied the subject some? Was this after you lost your faith?

 

 

As to the last, it is and it isn't. The personality that is you will cease existing in anyway that would be considered alive.  That personality will eventually be integrated in to a large whole of which the decease personality is less 1%.   This personality can be accessed like a memory when needed. 

Honestly, how did you come to these conclusions?  Specifically, why do you think Christianity is false and your belief is true?

 

 

 

 

To the first, no it was before. Not that the timing is relevant. Though I am sure you will try to make such.

 

 

 

 

To the second, Christianity as it is currently expressed is false.  It has been the result of older stories being rewritten and translated to new language and written to fit the new culture.  It has been formed by committee.  It pulled from other traditions and other religions and out and out co-oped older traditions.

 

That I said, my attitude has changed on Jesus.  I do think that there was a man named Jesus existed in that time.   I think his primary message was "love on another".  I think that is the nugget of truth to whole edifice of religion that has been erected around and distorted it for political, monetary and worldly gain.  

 

I feel the same about Buddhism. After seeing the palaces of the Dali Lama in Tibet and the complete abject poverty that many there live in, I have little respect for that religion either. However, like christianity, buddhism has a nugget of truth in there.  I haven't studied it enough to actually say what I think it was. 

 

I also think that Jesus probably didn't die on the cross and healed from his wounds and died of old age, probably still teaching somewhere, but with smaller crowds.  Given the ancient tradition of borrowing a famous person's name to make a work or speech more effective, I wouldn't be surprised if others called themselves Jesus and went out into the world and spread the word.  Leading to even more confusion as they interjected their own interpretations. 

 

 

 

I don't have definitive answers to everything.  What I express as my spirituality I do because it is what makes sense to me from years of study.  I don't buy the fundy atheist argument that  when the life ends that's it.   I also don't buy the christian argument that I'm broken and need to worship a psycho to be fixed.  

 

I don't worship any god. So in a very literal sense, I am an atheist. What I do is study my choices as I see them and use things like tarot to explore other options that I may not have seen. I try to make the best choices I can that help me to develop and grow in this life.  I try to learn and grow through this choices and hope that others my do the same.  When a choice doesn't work out, I adjust and try again. 

 

I don't really care if you believe me or not.  Your patronizing attitude of  "Honestly, how did you come to these conclusions?  Specifically, why do you think Christianity is false and your belief is true?"  is part of the reason why I wonder why I even bother responding to posts you make. I don't say any of this to convince you of anything.  This entire post is to answer a question you asked the best way I can. 

 

I don't come here saying I have the truth.  This is what makes sense to me.   This life is one of many.  At some point after many more lives, I will have learned all I can from the physical plane and will move on to the next. At some point, I will choose to come back and the cycle of lives will start again.  There is only learning and evolution in this.  There is no judgment.  There are no absolutes.  There is no simple dichotomy.  There is only varying shades of grey and lessons taught and learned. 

[Kurari]

 

 

I'm curious about you though Ordinary Clay, if the left-hand path turned out to be real but Christianity is false, what would you do? Would the occult be something you'd be interested in following or learning about? Would it impact your life and how you live it? Or would you keep it pretty much the same? 

 

I would never under any circumstances imagined, real  or speculative follow the occult.

 

 

Thanks for answering. I'm rather with you on that. 

 

Though come to think of it, a lot of the rituals and practices of Christianity are occultish.

 

oc·cult  (-klt, klt)

adj.

1. Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.

2. Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.

3. Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at mysterious.

4. Hidden from view; concealed.

 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/occult

 

 

Hmm. Stuff like the ritual of the eucharist, baptism, ESP, beliefs in supernatural monsters/angels, and the so on would all technically fall under the occult.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Then don't read my posts, for goodness sake. The trolling accusation is for people who are unwilling or unable to face other peoples words. No one forces you to read anything on the internet. I post only in the Lions Den and in very few threads in the Lions Den.

 

 

I have every right to comment on what you've posted, just as you've exercised your right to post whatever you please. In fact I very seldom, if ever say anything but you've not only pushed your Christian agenda on us with veiled threats which aren't so subtly disguised, against our will, I may add, but now you've seen fit to mock the beliefs of all the others on here.

 

And FYI this is ex-Christian.net, not Anti-christian.net or Christian.net. You erroneously assume that we are all anti-Christians, when if fact many us us are agnostic, and are just plain indifferent to your god or any other god.

 

As an agnostic, why should I believe your claim anymore than anyone else's claim? Theirs is far less offensive, because at least they don't threaten you with judgment and hell if someone don't accept it.

 

I've also seen for myself how unwilling you are to answer questions, or conveniently dodge them. Especially those asked by people such as BAA. IIRC he's still waiting for you to answer a few of his questions somewhere on this site.

 

 

Yes Unknown, I am still waiting. 

 

Here....   http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/55943-does-evil-exist/page-9

 

Thank you for reminding Clay of this.

 

BAA

[♦ ficino ♦]

I'm waiting, too.  

 

1. where does the Bible teach "free will" and not merely "choices" or "consequences"?

 

2. is there a method by which the person who experiences an event that s/he thinks may be supernatural, or others who are faced with the claims made by the first person, can assess whether the experience was in fact a supernatural experience?  This is a version of the question I posed on the now-locked Tarot thread that you initiated, Clay, to which you did not reply with a considered answer.  I believe this is the link (I'm not good at linking):

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/56386-would-you-ever-submit-and-worship-god/page-10

 

 

Someone may argue that an experience of revelation, or any supernatural experience, is just brute obvious as revelation or supernatural.  Not even the ancient Athenians went along with that position;  they had a procedure for weighing the claims of someone who said a new god had manifested himself/herself.  Given our epistemic advances over 5th century BCE, I can't imagine what such a procedure would be, and the dangers of question-begging assumptions are obvious.  Your "detectable but not repeatable" clause needs a lot of unpacking, and I'm open to listening.  But please, give your own best answer and don't link a book by Wm. Lane Craig or another apologist.  I want to hear your view.  (BTW I'm basically asking the same question as boftx asked.)

[bdp]

 

 The most important question we can ask ourselves is whether God exists

 

No  - any other belief is a delusion.  I snipped the other half of your quote because no deity has ever said anything, about itself or anything else - it's all a man-made construct, words put in the mouth of a fictional ventriloquist dummy.

[bdp]

 

Actually, if we assume the entities in control of the occult are malicious adversaries then it would follow they would use subterfuge.

 

 

There are no 'evil entities' just as there are no angels or gods.  Do you even know how ridiculous you sound?

 

My cat just barfed her entire dinner all over the carpet.  THAT'S truly evil.

[Margee]

 

 

 

I would never under any circumstances imagined, real  or speculative follow the occult.

 

 

 The book of sorcery...the bible itself!! We know Clay... You're going to say that the lord god did not approve...

The lord was also himself a blood thirsty god......

 

 

Deuteronomy 12:27

And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

 

Exodus 22:29 “Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.”

 

Sorcery And Enchantments

 

Exodus 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

 

Exodus 7:23 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

 

Exodus 8:7 And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.

 

Exodus 8:18 And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.

 

Numbers 24:1 And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness

 

Isaiah 47:9 But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. 10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.12 Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. 13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.

 

Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

 

Revelation 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

 

Magic And Astrology

 

Daniel 1:20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.

 

Daniel 2:2 Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.

 

Daniel 2:27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;

 

Daniel 4:7 Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.

 

Daniel 5:7 The king cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and shew me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom.

 

Daniel 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;

 

Daniel 5:15 And now the wise men, the astrologers, have been brought in before me, that they should read this writing, and make known unto me the interpretation thereof: but they could not shew the interpretation of the thing:

 

 

 

http://www.bibleufo.com/anomoccult.htm