What If Tarot Is Real?

[skepticalme]

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

If it was real there would be an enourmous body of evidence that it was real.  People who value evidence would accept it.  Christians and every other religion would be screwed though because they value faith and any evidence that condicts there faith is just a test of there faith that they must refute with BS or ignore.

[Thurisaz]

What if OrdinaryClay is real?

 

That would prove that the stupid is real

[seeker001]

 

What if OrdinaryClay is real?

 

That would prove that the stupid is real

 

Were you ever in doubt?

[Thurisaz]

We don't criticise Islam or Hinduism as much here either, we must like those religions more according to his logic.... /fail.

Typical for morontheism, no? When you can choose between discussing the content or the form of a statement, always choose the form.

[Astreja]

What if bacon is real? Oh wait, it is real, and I just ate some on my sandwich for lunch! It was delicious. This makes bacon better than God or tarot.

 

I'm getting a vision:  "The Bacon Tarot."  We get some nice, wide rashers of smoked pork product and fry them in a press that embosses them with card imaghh *munch munch munch*...

 

...Drat; just ate the 9 of wands.  BRB...

[Thurisaz]

Where is OdinaryClay?

Ran away again to safely forget all facts and good points that might have slipped into what passes as its brain. It will be back once everything has been purged and it can show its holy ignorance again.

[OrdinaryClay]

What's your point? This is a site for Ex-Christians, not atheists only, or agnostics only. It should come as no surprise that a sizable portion of the membership (and lurkers probably) have some form of belief in, or desire for a spiritual existence. Those who feel such are just as welcome here (from what I can tell) as those who are agnostic or atheist. Even Christians are welcome here so long as they understand that this site is geared to Ex-Christians and comport themselves in accordance with the rules.

 

The only thing you (or any Christian) could say if such spiritual phenomena are real is that they come from a demonic source. So it seems that you are being (once again) somewhat disingenuous with your question.

 

I have little doubt that for those who adhere to a faith other than Christianity that they feel that what they experience as a spiritual encounter is just as real as you think yours is.

 

That brings us back to your question: So what?

It is true I believe these manifestations are demonic, but that does not make my questions disingenuous. Not in the least. If all of these manifestations have a supernatural element than the most likely explanation is that there is a common driver. If there is a common driver we can tease out characteristics and draw conclusions about the motivating factor of these entities. There is no evidence these entities have our best interest in mind. Why do they even interact with us.

 

[Endemoniada]

 

[Thurisaz]

Makes much more sense than all morontheist babblings no?

[Endemoniada]

 

What's your point? This is a site for Ex-Christians, not atheists only, or agnostics only. It should come as no surprise that a sizable portion of the membership (and lurkers probably) have some form of belief in, or desire for a spiritual existence. Those who feel such are just as welcome here (from what I can tell) as those who are agnostic or atheist. Even Christians are welcome here so long as they understand that this site is geared to Ex-Christians and comport themselves in accordance with the rules.

 

The only thing you (or any Christian) could say if such spiritual phenomena are real is that they come from a demonic source. So it seems that you are being (once again) somewhat disingenuous with your question.

 

I have little doubt that for those who adhere to a faith other than Christianity that they feel that what they experience as a spiritual encounter is just as real as you think yours is.

 

That brings us back to your question: So what?

It is true I believe these manifestations are demonic, but that does not make my questions disingenuous. Not in the least. If all of these manifestations have a supernatural element than the most likely explanation is that there is a common driver. If there is a common driver we can tease out characteristics and draw conclusions about the motivating factor of these entities. There is no evidence these entities have our best interest in mind. Why do they even interact with us.

 

 

How do you know that your religious experiences are from God then and not demonic?

[OrdinaryClay]

 

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

OrdinaryClay it seems that if you are really trying to follow jesus then you will want to follow his commandments as well.

(Here is one such commandment)

 

Matthew 10:14

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

 

It is obvious that we are not listening to your words and you are as welcome as a mouse in a kitchen. So should you do what jesus commands in this case?

 

The intent of that verse is not to stop Christians from talking. Hardly, The intent is to encourage Christians to persevere. You or anyone here is free not to read my posts in the Lions Den.

 

God's word is true.

 

Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. (Mat 10:15)

 

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. (Isa 55:10-11)

 

[OrdinaryClay]

Real? Do you mean that what if tarot cards are possessed by demons? Are they magic? Do they cast spells? 

 

There is NO EVIDENCE for your brand of magic, nor is there for the others. Nevertheless, people seem to like to pretend.

 

What is wrong with you???

The supernatural is by definition beyond the empirical method. There is in fact evidence, albeit not empirical. You may choose to reject that evidence which is your choice. (funny how that verb always comes into play).

 

Based on this evidence it appears that the supernatural is detectable but not repeatable. The best explanation for events that are detectable, but not predictably repeatable is that these result from the actions of free willed entities. A free willed entity can at any time choose not to participate. This is why double blind protocols exist for many experimental trials involving humans.

 

[Astreja]

God's word is true.

 

Heeheeheeheehee!  (Springy G munches away on a definitely non-kosher Ace of Swords)  Cool story, bro.

[Vigile]

There is in fact evidence, albeit not empirical. You may choose to reject that evidence which is your choice. (funny how that verb always comes into play).

What is this choice people have mon frere? If the evidence isn't valid, a rational person has no choice but to reject.

 

If you think something's going on with the Tarot you are simply falling prey to your brain's own attempt to seek out patterns and emphasize positives while deemphasizing the negative hits. It's exactly for this reason you need empirical evidence in this particular situation in order to fairly assess objective reality.

[OrdinaryClay]

Actually, I'd see the "what if it's real" angle as a very solid point against Christianity. (And, technically, the exclusive kinds of monotheism in general.) What if it is real, but Christianity is wrong? Funny how people seem to bring that up as if it proves their point, but don't think it applies to them... "I believe in my kind of Christianity" is just one opinion of "real" out of seven billion. Lemme look up some stats here (under "people and society - religions" tab). Even if, statistically, we lump all Christians together, that's just about a third of human opinions. Now, there's all kinds of sects of Christianity, most of which assume that they're the only ones going to Heaven, which, I assume, is what's really at stake here. So, the largest sect of Christianity is Catholicism... 17% of the world population, give or take some. Protestantism, all together, just over 6%.

 

So, back to Kali, and let's apply a little version of Pascal's wager. Hinduism, about 14%, because that's what we're talking about here. She's a consort of Shiva, and Goddess of time, changes, and death, as well as a formidable demon-slayer. (She's either summoned by/created by/an aspect of the Goddess Durga, and defeated a vicious demon.) So, kills demons, and is a reminder of the inevitable march of time. Now, a cornerstone of Hinduism is reincarnation. If you do your best to live up to morality in whatever station of life you're in, you get reborn up the chain, until eventually, you can dedicate your time to breaking free of the cycle of rebirth. So, even if I'm not Hindu, they believe everyone gets infinitely more chances to do the right thing. Let's add Buddhism, too, because reincarnation of a similar type applies, with the change that anyone at any time can break out, as long as they do the right thing and follow the eightfold way, and break free of illusion. So, if we add in other non-monotheist religions (including atheism, and the non-religious, in which case it's not really a concern what happens after you die), that actually tallies to a whopping 43.54%. Wow. That worked better than I thought. Assuming everyone with equal proof gets equal weight, statistically, I'd rather bank on the side that says "you die and you're dead" (I never minded not existing before I was born) or reincarnation (infinite chances to get it right). I assume OrdinaryClay isn't Muslim or Jewish. Either way, he's risking eternal Hellfire (or cessation of existence, depending on interpretation of scripture) by being Christian (Islam and Judaism combined: 22.96%). Logically, it's statistically more reasonable to skip the monotheist Hell Mexican standoff, and believe in Kali. No penalty to anybody if you don't, and 43.54% (which outnumbers any one monotheist option, and you'd have to pick one, by definition) says you might as well, because, hey, why not? Since she doesn't care if you don't believe in her (or she doesn't exist), and that reincarnation thing, Kali's actually a lot nicer than Christian God.

 

Nobody has any better evidence than anyone else, but, if you're determined to follow the "what if it's real" path to it's logical conclusion, the statistics are against any one religion being RIGHT^TM. You can believe stuff as hard as you want, but so does anyone else in the world.

Well, first, I have considered the question of whether Christianity is true or not, as I have said on this forum before.

 

Second, it makes no statistical sense to simply correlate percentage belief with truth weight. IOW, you can't say well 75% believe X therefore X is more likely to be true. Truth claims have to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

 

The quality of evidence does very from truth claim to truth claim.

[Astreja]

The basic problem that we have with OC is that he seems to have a quaint little notion:  He appears to believe that if he just disses, debunks or waves away everything that doesn't look like his dead-rabbi-on-a-stick worldview, said worldview is somehow confirmed.

 

I just have to say that that is probably the stupidest fucking way anyone could ever defend their beliefs.  The easy way, of course, is to just show us the god, in person.  Second easiest way is to consistently demonstrate that a believer can actually call upon its power in the Real World™ and make miracles happen.

 

OC, you will never, ever win with your current tactics.  Even if you were to disprove literally every other god, New Age methodology or philosophical system on the planet... Humanity will make more.  A lot more.  And through it all, your god will remain unproven because you have no evidence that meets our standards.

 

I repeat:  Our standards.  The reason we are ex-Christians is that our standards became more stringent as we matured, at which time the standard apologetics-grade "evidence" fell flat.  Repeating it will not bring us back.  Give it up.

[OrdinaryClay]

Oh for goodness sake.. of course Tarot is real... but NOT in the way you think. It's a TOOL to access one's own intuition. It uses classic age-old cross-cultural symbols to do that instead of language. (kind of like our brains use analogy, metaphor and symbols to work through out subconscious inner struggles and daily problems while we sleep)

 

It's ARCHETYPAL... basic human psychology that is beyond words.

 

idjit

Jung was heavily influenced by the occult. There is no science that supports the notion of a super-consciousness or any psychological archetypes. It is gobbledygook.

[OrdinaryClay]

You like to believe in your fairy tales and we like to believe different ones!! What's the difference?

 

Oh yeah...you got the 'truth'....

You ask for my evidence shouldn't I ask for yours?

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

 

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

OrdinaryClay it seems that if you are really trying to follow jesus then you will want to follow his commandments as well.

(Here is one such commandment)

 

Matthew 10:14

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

 

It is obvious that we are not listening to your words and you are as welcome as a mouse in a kitchen. So should you do what jesus commands in this case?

The intent of that verse is not to stop Christians from talking. Hardly, The intent is to encourage Christians to persevere. You or anyone here is free not to read my posts in the Lions Den.

 

God's word is true.

 

Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town. (Mat 10:15)

 

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. (Isa 55:10-11)

What??? How does what you said apply, that verse says to leave people who don't listen.

[OrdinaryClay]

Ask yourself the same question in reverse.  What if it is not real?  The "it" is, of course, Christianity.  That is the question that most on ExC asked at some point and it is a far more important question than whether this or that spiritual belief is real.  Do you dare ask yourself that question and then seriously consider its implications?  It is quite a frightening question for the true believer.

I've said here many times that I have asked myself every unsettling question I could of think of with regard to Christianity. My faith in Christ has actually grown stronger over the years and the more I dug and asked. That is the truth whether you want to believe it or not.

[Astreja]

Kali Ma says "नमस्ते."   

[OrdinaryClay]

Well... if there is something and I'm going to exist somehow after death, that would be weird. I'm not terribly concerned about it. It doesn't seem likely much less possible, being that "I" is an illusion. "I" am nothing more than a huge colony of single celled organisms, as are you and everyone else on the forum and in existence. Do each of them have to have an afterlife enslaved to me? This macroorganism they make up in this life? That would be a sucky fate for them. I don't know that I'd wish that upon them.

How do you suppose this collection of single celled organisms obtained consciousness?

[Astreja]

How do you suppose this collection of single celled organisms obtained consciousness?

Ah -- Pretending at knowledge of biology now, are you?

 

First and foremost, a "collection of single-celled organisms" is actually known as a multicellular organism.  The cells in a complex life form are in electrochemical communication and the communication paths between cells form networks.  I would surmise that "consciousness" is simply an inherent property of neural networks in general, and becomes more obvious as the networks interconnect and become more densely populated by neurons.

 

In other words, I believe that our minds are nothing but an electromagnetic field that simply shuts off when the cells comprising our nervous systems die.

[OrdinaryClay]

So let's say, for argument's sake, that Christianity is real.

 

Wait... which Christianity?  There are thousands of different sects, and most disagree on the most fundamental levels.  Add that to the fact that what we may call Christianity now is practiced quite differently than 1000 years ago.  So were they 'right'?  Or is it 'right' now? And how are we supposed to know?

First, Just because their are many beliefs does not in any way mean the truth does not exist. It's absurd to think so. IOW, you cannot deduce that none are correct simply because there are many beliefs. Second, it is categorically untrue that most denominations disagree on a fundamental level. Third,The idea that one cannot find truth in uncertainty is also bogus. Every human lives their entire life making decisions under uncertainty.

 

You know, it is this kind of thinking that just stuns me. It is scary to think people left Christ because of such fallacious reasoning.

[OrdinaryClay]

I agree with, Florduh, only slightly further. Is OC's curiousity real?

 

I think not, past evidence, by his own hand I might add, shows he has no real interest in gaining anything here but feeling important in his sad little world. Expanding your world is scary and he likes the small bubble he is in.

Since when is curiosity the only legitimate reason for posting. You are building strawmen.

 

Oooh, by my own hand yet  ...

 

Why do you post?