What If Tarot Is Real?

[skepticalme]

 

 

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

If it was real there would be an enourmous body of evidence that it was real. 

Why do you assume this? We are talking about the supernatural not the natural. You are projecting empirical thinking which is not valid.

 

Actually, if we assume the entities in control of the occult are malicious adversaries then it would follow they would use subterfuge.

 

If it had any influence on the natural world it would be measurable and thus there would be evidence of it's influence.  If it was real but had no influence, how is that distinguishable from non-existant?

[midniterider]

 

Where is he anyway? Where did OrdinaryClay go?

He's gone because we didn't feed into his desire for negative attention..or maybe..gasp..he has a life?

 

 

Ouija board ate him.

[midniterider]

OC is boring.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

So let's say, for argument's sake, that Christianity is real.

 

Wait... which Christianity?  There are thousands of different sects, and most disagree on the most fundamental levels.  Add that to the fact that what we may call Christianity now is practiced quite differently than 1000 years ago.  So were they 'right'?  Or is it 'right' now? And how are we supposed to know?

First, Just because their are many beliefs does not in any way mean the truth does not exist. It's absurd to think so. IOW, you cannot deduce that none are correct simply because there are many beliefs. Second, it is categorically untrue that most denominations disagree on a fundamental level. Third,The idea that one cannot find truth in uncertainty is also bogus. Every human lives their entire life making decisions under uncertainty.

 

You know, it is this kind of thinking that just stuns me. It is scary to think people left Christ because of such fallacious reasoning.

 

First, if your God is true, then he does an extraordinary job of hiding himself among conflicting belief systems.  A loving God would make sure his instructions are clear to everyone.  Do not tell me that the Bible provides clear instruction.  It absolutely does not.

 

Second, If denominations are in such agreement, then there would be no need for them to be in different sects.  I'll bet if you put a Seventh Day Adventist, a Catholic, a Greek Orthodox, and an Assembly of God adherent in the same room, you'd find plenty of fundamental differences in their beliefs.  And those are just a few of the thousands of sects that exist.

 

Third, in terms of finding "truth" about spirituality - well, NO ONE can claim that they know for sure.  And yes, all humans decide for themselves what they think is most likely to be true given the uncertainty that exists in the world, given the evidence that exists.

 

By the way, this is not the reason I left Christianity.  These are just things that I realized after I opened my eyes to the real world.

 

Piggybacking on new2me's reply (my stuff in red, Ordinary Clay's in black)

 

 

As OC does many times with me and others, he puts conclusions in new2me's mouth that she did not draw.  New2me did not say that "the truth does not exist" or that the existence of many beliefs proves that none is correct.  OC's "you cannot deduce that none is correct simply because [my emphasis] there are many beliefs" does not represent her argument.  

Same deal with his "The idea that one cannot find truth in uncertainty is also bogus. Every human lives their entire life making decisions under uncertainty."  New2me does not say that "one cannot find truth in uncertainty."  She certainly thinks that she has found truth in certain circumstances.  Her words do not imply what OC insinuates they do, and since she didn't state the proposition that he belittles, the fallacious reasoning is imputed to new2me by OC, not committed by her.

 

As to OC's summation:  You know, it is this kind of thinking that just stuns me. It is scary to think people left Christ because of such fallacious reasoning.

 

I think we all ought to call out OC each time he attributes positions to us that we did not articulate.  The "fallacious reasoning" is not new2me's.

 

new2me said it was OK of me to comment on this.

[bdp]

OC, I 'left' 'christ' because it never existed.

[creative]

 

Real? Do you mean that what if tarot cards are possessed by demons? Are they magic? Do they cast spells? 

 

There is NO EVIDENCE for your brand of magic, nor is there for the others. Nevertheless, people seem to like to pretend.

 

What is wrong with you???

The supernatural is by definition beyond the empirical method. There is in fact evidence, albeit not empirical. You may choose to reject that evidence which is your choice. (funny how that verb always comes into play).

 

Based on this evidence it appears that the supernatural is detectable but not repeatable. The best explanation for events that are detectable, but not predictably repeatable is that these result from the actions of free willed entities. A free willed entity can at any time choose not to participate. This is why double blind protocols exist for many experimental trials involving humans.

 

 

Lack of a better explanation or an assumption is not called evidence.

 

Its like when you watch a magician do a trick and you dont know how he did it.

Now in the bronze age people would see that is proof/evidence of the supernatural.

But now a days most people are smart enough to see that its not.

 

Now im not saying that these entities that might influence the cards dont exist. I am saying do that first of i dont believe they do and second that its much more likely and reasonable to assume that we are simply looking at some sort of magic trick.

 

If you ask me its the same nonsense as horoscopes. They tell you some stuff and you take meaning and interpertation from it. Tarot nore horoscopes say anything concrete that isn't left to ones interpretation.

[emshi21]

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

 

 

If I may throw my hat in the ring.......

The supernatural ideas you mentioned and many others, be they paganism, ghosts and reincarnation in general have all crossed my mind. At the moment though, I have not come up with anything I wholeheartedly believe in. At the moment, eternal unconsciousness sounds likely to me, and I'm OK with that. But I don't consider these ideas to be 'uncool'. I don't believe you can dismiss any theological point based on that, and I do not believe you do either. Why do you suppose we are so shallow as to only believe/ not believe in what will make us look good to others. I believe most of us have lost respect in at least one person's eyes by renouncing Christianity, after all.

 

I would also like to refute a statement I saw you had made that 'the most important question we have to ask is whether God is real or not', or something along those lines. Surely there are more important questions? How to cure cancer? How to end World Hunger? These are equally big, difficult questions which I would say are far more important than debating the existence of a God.

[Ravenstar]

The more I think about this the more I realize it's a question loaded with assumptions

 

hmm.. what if Tarot is real?  What exactly is meant by that inquiry? Real how? Tarot decks exist.. we all know that.. Tarot as a system of philosophical metaphysics exist... we know that. Some people believe it can be predictive... but I don't think there is any empirical evidence of that. It uses archetypal symbols and so reflects a sort of Jungian psychology. It's a tool for introspection mostly. "know thyself".. and all that.

 

What does the question ASSUME? Is it a junk question like 'are witches real?" (I've been a practicing Witch so I can say.. umm.. yes they are... but it has no relation to the mediaeval mythology of witches.. it's a spiritual path, for some a religion (fam-trads, wiccans) for some a system for personal development and/or grounding in one's environment - the earth and ecosphere). Without the assumptions of the socio-cultural mythology of fundamental christianity and the occult (hidden knowledge..ooo spooky!) these questions are a bit nonsensical because they ASSUME things about these subjects which are fallacious, and ignorant.

 

Are entrails real? Yes.. can they predict the outcome of wars? The Romans thought so.. today, not so much.

 

The question assumes a spiritual realm where evil entities are running to and fro with nothing better to do than fuck with humans minds   hahahahahahahahahaha... and using card decks to do so (might want to go to the casino and see the real card masters)

 

The question comes from a mindset that is so incredibly primitive it boggles my mind... along the lines of isolated tribes in the jungle who really and truly believe that each and every plant, animal, event and shift of the wind is inhabited and/or caused by spirits.. okay not just isolated tribes... hahahahahahahahaha   I know some new agers who live like this too.. and obviously christians.  Seem like a very fearful way to live..

 

Guess I better go pour a libation to the tree outside my window.. just to stay on it's good side. 

[emshi21]

 

Guess I better go pour a libation to the tree outside my window.. just to stay on it's good side. 

 

You mean you don't do this already? *tutting sound*

[Casey]

H'mm. There are times I would almost be tempted to try this advice from Sir Reginald Scot:

 

FIRST fast and pray three days, and abstain thee from all filthiness; go to one that is new buried, such a one as killed himself or destroyed himself wilfully: or else get thee promise of one that shall be hanged, and let him swear an oath to thee, after his body is dead, that his spirit shall come to thee, and do thee true service, at thy commandments, in all days, hours, and minutes. And let no persons see thy doings, but thy fellow. And about eleven a clock in the night, go to the place where he was buried, and say with a bold faith & hearty desire, to have the spirit come that thou dost call for, thy fellow having a candle in his left hand, and in his right hand a crystal stone ...

 

You can find the rest here at http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/scot16.htm#chap8

 

It would be so nice if it worked lol.

Casey

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

 

Well... if there is something and I'm going to exist somehow after death, that would be weird. I'm not terribly concerned about it. It doesn't seem likely much less possible, being that "I" is an illusion. "I" am nothing more than a huge colony of single celled organisms, as are you and everyone else on the forum and in existence. Do each of them have to have an afterlife enslaved to me? This macroorganism they make up in this life? That would be a sucky fate for them. I don't know that I'd wish that upon them.

How do you suppose this collection of single celled organisms obtained consciousness?

 

Well... they evolved brains....

 

All consciousness is is neurons (singlecelled organisms that make up the brain) communicating with eachother. This has been demonstrated, observed, and tested and is in fact, a demonstratable fact.

 

Basically, they work together, as a huge colony of single celled organisms. Over time, they become a massive organism and just become cells, because they are dependant on that system for their life and reproduction, etc... Some even change to serve different functions. And if some, for instance some bacteria in your intestines and stomach, were to not be there, you could develope deathcausing healthconditions or birth defects.

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with, Florduh, only slightly further. Is OC's curiousity real?

 

I think not, past evidence, by his own hand I might add, shows he has no real interest in gaining anything here but feeling important in his sad little world. Expanding your world is scary and he likes the small bubble he is in.

Agreed.

 

I would further point out he obviously does not understand the purpose of this site either.

 

What is the purpose of the Lions Den? Perhaps it is so ex-Christians can feel important?

 

 

 

 

Where is he anyway? Where did OrdinaryClay go?

I'm touched that you care.

 

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

 

 

 

I agree with, Florduh, only slightly further. Is OC's curiousity real?

 

I think not, past evidence, by his own hand I might add, shows he has no real interest in gaining anything here but feeling important in his sad little world. Expanding your world is scary and he likes the small bubble he is in.

Agreed.

 

I would further point out he obviously does not understand the purpose of this site either.

 

What is the purpose of the Lions Den? Perhaps it is so ex-Christians can feel important?

 

 

It's just to debate and learn folks like you.  And for you to test your ideas out on.

 

 

 

Where is he anyway? Where did OrdinaryClay go?

I'm touched that you care.

[]

 

Why thank you OC! And I know you were being sarcasmic. But I'm glad you're touched nonetheless

[Skankboy]

 

It is true I believe these manifestations are demonic, but that does not make my questions disingenuous. Not in the least. If all of these manifestations have a supernatural element than the most likely explanation is that there is a common driver. If there is a common driver we can tease out characteristics and draw conclusions about the motivating factor of these entities. There is no evidence these entities have our best interest in mind. Why do they even interact with us.

Alternative interpretation - you are psychic!  See the trick is, once you allow for the supernatural, ANYTHING GOES.  There's as much evidence that the cause is psychic as it is mystic (i.e. next to none), but both are valid within the framework proposed...

[Casey]

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

 

Best answer to the OP, from Sir Reginald Scot's "Discoverie of Witchcraft," 1584:

 

A confutation of the manifold vanities contained in the precedent chapters, specially of commanding of devils.

HE that can be persuaded that these things are true, or wrought indeed according to the assertion of cozeners, or according to the supposition of witchmongers & papists, may soon be brought to believe that the moon is made of green cheese. You see in this which is called Solomon's  conjuration, there is a perfect inventory registered of the number of devils, of their names, of their offices, of their personages, of their qualities, of their powers, of their properties, of their kingdoms, of their governments, of their orders, of their dispositions, of their subjection, of their submission, and of the ways to bind or loose them; with a note what wealth, learning, office, commodity, pleasure, &c: they can give, and may be forced to yield in spite of their hearts, to such (forsooth) as are cunning in this art: of whom yet was never seen any rich man, or at least [any man] that gained any thing that way; or any unlearned man, that became learned by that means; or any happy man, that could with the help of this art either deliver himself, or his friends, from adversity, or add unto his estate any point of felicity: yet these men, in all worldly happiness, must needs exceed all others; if such things could be by them accomplished, according as it is presupposed. For if they may learn of Marbas, all secrets, and to cure all diseases; and of Furcas, wisdom, and to be cunning in all mechanical arts; and to change any man's shape, of Zepar: if Bune can make them rich and eloquent, if Beroth can tell them of all things, present, past, and to come; if Asmodeus can make them go invisible and show them all hidden treasure; if Salmacke will afflict whom they list, & Allocer can procure them the love of any woman; if Amy can provide them excellent familiars, if Gaym can make them understand the voice of all birds and beasts, and Buer and Bifrons can make them live long; and finally, if Orias could procure unto them great friends, and reconcile their enemies, & they in the end had all these at commandment; should they not live in all worldly honor and felicity? whereas contrariwise they lead their lives in all obloquy, misery, and beggary, and in fine come to the gallows; as though they had chosen unto themselves the spirit Valefer, who they say bringeth all them with whom he entereth into familiarity, to no better end than the gibbet or gallows.

 

(Spellings modernized)

 

That's not bad for 1584 is it, Christians?

Casey

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

What's your point? This is a site for Ex-Christians, not atheists only, or agnostics only. It should come as no surprise that a sizable portion of the membership (and lurkers probably) have some form of belief in, or desire for a spiritual existence. Those who feel such are just as welcome here (from what I can tell) as those who are agnostic or atheist. Even Christians are welcome here so long as they understand that this site is geared to Ex-Christians and comport themselves in accordance with the rules.

 

The only thing you (or any Christian) could say if such spiritual phenomena are real is that they come from a demonic source. So it seems that you are being (once again) somewhat disingenuous with your question.

 

I have little doubt that for those who adhere to a faith other than Christianity that they feel that what they experience as a spiritual encounter is just as real as you think yours is.

 

That brings us back to your question: So what?

It is true I believe these manifestations are demonic, but that does not make my questions disingenuous. Not in the least. If all of these manifestations have a supernatural element than the most likely explanation is that there is a common driver. If there is a common driver we can tease out characteristics and draw conclusions about the motivating factor of these entities. There is no evidence these entities have our best interest in mind. Why do they even interact with us.

 

 

How do you know that your religious experiences are from God then and not demonic?

 

The evidence. Christ was clearly not an evil entity. It is trivially easy to detect evil. Seeing Christ was pure good and that the demonic is pure evil is obvious to those with honest intentions.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

There is in fact evidence, albeit not empirical. You may choose to reject that evidence which is your choice. (funny how that verb always comes into play).

What is this choice people have mon frere? If the evidence isn't valid, a rational person has no choice but to reject.

 

If you think something's going on with the Tarot you are simply falling prey to your brain's own attempt to seek out patterns and emphasize positives while deemphasizing the negative hits. It's exactly for this reason you need empirical evidence in this particular situation in order to fairly assess objective reality.

 

Ooh, pattern recognition. You must be a brain scientist!

 

Get a grip, and stop parroting the junk you hear on the Internet. Yes, the mind is a good pattern recogniser, but it is simply dumb to think that means patterns don't exist. If every pattern was a false positive than our brains would not work! Ergo, true patterns do exist, and we use our minds to match them.

 

Evidence does exist. You have simply chosen to reject it and then through an act of hubris claimed because you reject it none exists.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

Real? Do you mean that what if tarot cards are possessed by demons? Are they magic? Do they cast spells? 

 

There is NO EVIDENCE for your brand of magic, nor is there for the others. Nevertheless, people seem to like to pretend.

 

What is wrong with you???

The supernatural is by definition beyond the empirical method. There is in fact evidence, albeit not empirical. You may choose to reject that evidence which is your choice. (funny how that verb always comes into play).

 

Based on this evidence it appears that the supernatural is detectable but not repeatable. The best explanation for events that are detectable, but not predictably repeatable is that these result from the actions of free willed entities. A free willed entity can at any time choose not to participate. This is why double blind protocols exist for many experimental trials involving humans.

 

 

Empirical means measurable.  If it is beyond measurment how is that destinguishable from non-existant.  We can measure subatomic particles.  If it is beyond measurment it has less influence than a single electron in the trillion of a AAA batery.  By your definition, if you press a button on your remote control you imposed more influence on the universe by 9 orders or magnitude than god.

 

BTW, not repeatable is indestinguishable from random event.  So by the logic you used above, god if he exist, has less influence then the 50/50 up/down spin of a single electron.

 

The scientific method relies on being repeatably measurable. Not simply measurable. A supernatural experience is often measurable, but it is not repeatable, It is not repeatable because free willed agents are the source of the phenomena. Supernatural events don't occur through necessity or chance. There is no law governing supernatural phenomenon hence they are not subject to the scientific method.

 

BTW - did you bother to understand what a double blind protocol is, and why they are needed?

[OrdinaryClay]

Someone can be skeptical of the supernatural and yet dabble it, perhaps trying to find a rational explanation for it or maybe just for the lulz. I believe that the supernatural is something that science has yet to be able to explain. At one time people thought thunder and volcanic activity was purely from the wrath of god, but now people know it is just part of the natural cycle of this planet. 

Science disagrees. The vast majority of scientists believe the supernatural is not science and never will be.I agree with them.

[Astreja]

 

The evidence. Christ was clearly not an evil entity. It is trivially easy to detect evil. Seeing Christ was pure good and that the demonic is pure evil is obvious to those with honest intentions.

 

"Christ" was an asshole.  He went around insulting people and destroying their property -- Just a turn-of-the-millennium apocalyptic fruitcake whose story option got picked up by a Roman emperor.

[OrdinaryClay]

OdinaryClay, have you ever asked yourself why god, angels and demons are invisible, does that not set alam bells off for you.

Yes, I have asked myself this. I then quickly asked myself how visible should they be? What do people really mean when they say visible? What most are really asking is, Why doesn't God perform tricks for me.

 

After many years, I came to the conclusion that, one, God is not as hidden as people claim He is, and two, the natural world is part of a greater reality, and that saying God is hidden is akin to a fish saying trees are hidden.

[OrdinaryClay]

 

 

 

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

If it was real there would be an enourmous body of evidence that it was real. 

Why do you assume this? We are talking about the supernatural not the natural. You are projecting empirical thinking which is not valid.

 

Actually, if we assume the entities in control of the occult are malicious adversaries then it would follow they would use subterfuge.

 

If it had any influence on the natural world it would be measurable and thus there would be evidence of it's influence.  If it was real but had no influence, how is that distinguishable from non-existant?

 

It is measurable, it is not repeatable therefore you cannot on demand just create a measurement. You must rely on personal experience or testimony. And now someone will jump in with yet another vacuous diatribe about how personal experience and testimony are not evidence. Which is simply a goofy position since they will expect all of us to believe such non-sense based on their testimony

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

 

 

 

 

What's your point? This is a site for Ex-Christians, not atheists only, or agnostics only. It should come as no surprise that a sizable portion of the membership (and lurkers probably) have some form of belief in, or desire for a spiritual existence. Those who feel such are just as welcome here (from what I can tell) as those who are agnostic or atheist. Even Christians are welcome here so long as they understand that this site is geared to Ex-Christians and comport themselves in accordance with the rules.

 

The only thing you (or any Christian) could say if such spiritual phenomena are real is that they come from a demonic source. So it seems that you are being (once again) somewhat disingenuous with your question.

 

I have little doubt that for those who adhere to a faith other than Christianity that they feel that what they experience as a spiritual encounter is just as real as you think yours is.

 

That brings us back to your question: So what?

It is true I believe these manifestations are demonic, but that does not make my questions disingenuous. Not in the least. If all of these manifestations have a supernatural element than the most likely explanation is that there is a common driver. If there is a common driver we can tease out characteristics and draw conclusions about the motivating factor of these entities. There is no evidence these entities have our best interest in mind. Why do they even interact with us.

 

How do you know that your religious experiences are from God then and not demonic?

The evidence. Christ was clearly not an evil entity. It is trivially easy to detect evil. Seeing Christ was pure good and that the demonic is pure evil is obvious to those with honest intentions.

Remember satan is not a equally opposite power to god, theres no evidence in the bible that satan is pure evil.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

OdinaryClay, have you ever asked yourself why god, angels and demons are invisible, does that not set alam bells off for you.

Yes, I have asked myself this. I then quickly asked myself how visible should they be? What do people really mean when they say visible? What most are really asking is, Why doesn't God perform tricks for me.

 

After many years, I came to the conclusion that, one, God is not as hidden as people claim He is, and two, the natural world is part of a greater reality, and that saying God is hidden is akin to a fish saying trees are hidden.

Then ill ask this question, why does god, angels and demons remain invisible when they don't have to?

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What if tarot is real? What if the hideous abominations of the left hand path are real? What if kali is real?

 

I see many on here dance around other spiritual followings. It's uncool among skeptics to actually openly embrace the possibility that this stuff is stone cold ******* real. I believe there are some on here that know just how real the spiritual world is and mute their words.

 

Well I ask you, what if it's real? Do you really believe the thin veil called death is simply eternal unconsciousness.

If it was real there would be an enourmous body of evidence that it was real.

Why do you assume this? We are talking about the supernatural not the natural. You are projecting empirical thinking which is not valid.

 

Actually, if we assume the entities in control of the occult are malicious adversaries then it would follow they would use subterfuge.

If it had any influence on the natural world it would be measurable and thus there would be evidence of it's influence. If it was real but had no influence, how is that distinguishable from non-existant?

It is measurable, it is not repeatable therefore you cannot on demand just create a measurement. You must rely on personal experience or testimony. And now someone will jump in with yet another vacuous diatribe about how personal experience and testimony are not evidence. Which is simply a goofy position since they will expect all of us to believe such non-sense based on their testimony

I wont tell you how experience or testimony is not a real type of evidence, but I will say that experience and testimony like that can lead one into a deep delusion. Think of a suicide bomber who uses both experience and testimony to aid them in believing that what they are doing is right.

[creative]

 

Someone can be skeptical of the supernatural and yet dabble it, perhaps trying to find a rational explanation for it or maybe just for the lulz. I believe that the supernatural is something that science has yet to be able to explain. At one time people thought thunder and volcanic activity was purely from the wrath of god, but now people know it is just part of the natural cycle of this planet. 

Science disagrees. The vast majority of scientists believe the supernatural is not science and never will be.I agree with them.

 

Science doesn't disagree with that.

Supernatural means that something can not be explained within in the laws of nature. And since the laws of nature are subject to change you cant realy call anything supernatural.

Science looks for answers where there are none (no point in researching stuff we already know right).