boftx Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 OrdinaryClay, You have stated elsewhere that you are "an old earth Christian": The universe is 13.5 byrs old. I'm an old earth Christian. The Bible does not teach the earth is 6000 yrs old. People have read this into the Bible. Now, I don't fault someone for believing the earth is 6000 years old. It is not bad to believe such a thing, but I don't hinge my faith on that. Do you also accept (note that I did not say believe in) the theory of evolution, including that of Homo Sapiens from earlier forms? Why or why not? (If you don't mind.) How do you decide what parts of the Bible are subjective and which are objective? As a specific example since you brought it up in the quoted comment above, what part(s) of the creation story do you accept at face value, if any? If I might use your phrase, how do you decide what to "hang [your] faith on"? I am not asking these to put you on that spot, but rather, I am trying to understand your position a little better. It will be much easier for any future discussions if I have some idea of how you perceive Bible inerrancy since it is clear you do not hold that it is literally true word-for-word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 If he doesn't come back here, we could always do what he does - make up answers like what we think he would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 We know that this is exactly what we'll have to do, at least if we want more than memorized babblings from him, triggered by keywords in a knee-jerk reaction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Well... I think we have our answers... *crickets* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 2, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2013 The Lord works in mysterious ways. You need to have faith. Jesus, you people are dense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 since we are all matter. I would agree with us being dense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted May 2, 2013 Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2013 Responding from a Christian perspective: Evolution of Homo Sapiens: no Though we have sufficient evidence for microevolution, macroevolution has never been observed and is not falsifiable. How do you decide what parts of the Bible are subjective and which are objective? The Bible is made up of many different literary genres which are easily deciphered by true spirit-filled students of the Word. What part(s) of the creation story do you accept at face value, if any? God created everything. To Him a day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years are like a day. He chose not to reveal exactly how he created but inspired a wonderful account steeped in metaphor. How do you decide what to "hang [your] faith on"? God has revealed himself in his word and in His faithful provision in my life and the lives of fellow believers. How did I do, OC? Have at them, Ex-Cs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 2, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2013 TF, looks like you've done this before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 OdinaryClay appeared to me in a vision and he proclaimed . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boftx Posted May 2, 2013 Author Share Posted May 2, 2013 OdinaryClay appeared to me in a vision and he proclaimed . . . If he appeared to you in a vision I'd consider beating the crap out of your dealer for giving you such bad shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted May 2, 2013 Moderator Share Posted May 2, 2013 TF, looks like you've done this before I'm flattered! I haz logicz. I challenge you to defy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 YOUR LOGICZ SUCK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 OdinaryClay appeared to me in a vision and he proclaimed . . . If he appeared to you in a vision I'd consider beating the crap out of your dealer for giving you such bad shit. Well, it always works when one claims Jesus appeared in a vision. Maybe I need to try it on a Christian forum and tell them that Jesus said to give me 10% of their money. It was good enough for Saint Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted May 3, 2013 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2013 Must I challenge myself? Fine... Responding from a Christian perspective: Evolution of Homo Sapiens: no Though we have sufficient evidence for microevolution, macroevolution has never been observed and is not falsifiable. This is a common response from people who do not yet have a good understanding of evolution. The only difference between micro and macro-evolution is the number of generations required. New species has been observed repeatedly. Macroevolution is falsifiable but has never been falsified. You don't find ape fossils in precambrian layers of rock. How do you decide what parts of the Bible are subjective and which are objective? The Bible is made up of many different literary genres which are easily deciphered by true spirit-filled students of the Word. The various genres are easily identified by any student of literature and are all subjective and clearly influenced by the language and culture from which they originated. What part(s) of the creation story do you accept at face value, if any? God created everything. To Him a day is like 1,000 years, and 1,000 years are like a day. He chose not to reveal exactly how he created but inspired a wonderful account steeped in metaphor. You did not answer the question. "God did it" is not an answer. If you cannot define what you mean by "God" or explain what you mean by "created" you have said nothing. As far as this wonderful metaphor goes, I would love hear your interpretation. How do you decide what to "hang [your] faith on"? God has revealed himself in his word and in His faithful provision in my life and the lives of fellow believers. This is an existentialist position. Have the considered the outsider test for faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I could watch TrueFreedom argue with himself like this all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted May 3, 2013 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2013 I could watch TrueFreedom argue with himself like this all day. At least I'm answering my questions! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker001 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I could watch TrueFreedom argue with himself like this all day. *gets out popcorn* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted May 3, 2013 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2013 I don't think that I have the energy to present the current fundie argument for the long-term consistency and reliability of radiometric dating, latest human footprint claim or tree growing through all layers of rock derptitude. As far as metaphor in the creation accounts in Genesis, Joseph Campbell has presented an interesting take on the garden of Eden and and alternative perspective on the Cherubim in light of Eastern mythology and symbolism (as well as Western aboriginal myths). Were the Cherubim physically guarding the tree of life, or were they symbols of the journeyman's anxiety, signaling for the weary traveler to calm his fears and enter bravely? Where is our biblical champion who dares to defy the lions? I lack energy and crave flesh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Yeah, TrueFreedom #7, what do you have to say to TrueFreedom #14 now? You can't let him get over on you like that! Defend your faith, man! Edit: Oops! I think I was writing that while TF was posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 OrdinaryClay, You have stated elsewhere that you are "an old earth Christian": The universe is 13.5 byrs old. I'm an old earth Christian. The Bible does not teach the earth is 6000 yrs old. People have read this into the Bible. Now, I don't fault someone for believing the earth is 6000 years old. It is not bad to believe such a thing, but I don't hinge my faith on that. Do you also accept (note that I did not say believe in) the theory of evolution, including that of Homo Sapiens from earlier forms? Why or why not? (If you don't mind.) How do you decide what parts of the Bible are subjective and which are objective? As a specific example since you brought it up in the quoted comment above, what part(s) of the creation story do you accept at face value, if any? If I might use your phrase, how do you decide what to "hang [your] faith on"? I am not asking these to put you on that spot, but rather, I am trying to understand your position a little better. It will be much easier for any future discussions if I have some idea of how you perceive Bible inerrancy since it is clear you do not hold that it is literally true word-for-word. I believe the science. The best science gives strong evidence for common descent. So I do believe there is common ancestry. Most people need to take the time to dig deeper than simple phrases such as "The Theory of Evolution". What science cannot do is provide answers on how the large leaps in genome complexity occurred. Just claiming long periods of time will allow for any possible change is not scientific and is a cop out. Just finding evidence for common descent does not mean it occurred via a materialistic means. I believe the Bible is God's inerrant word. I partition the Bible into two sets of verses. The verses I believe I understand, and the verses I believe I don't understand. I gain understanding through study, thought and prayer. As an example, Gen 2:21, did God actually use Adam's rib to create Eve. I believe it is physically metaphorical, but believing it is physically true is not a problem for me. If a Christian chooses to believe that than okay. Let me ask you a question, if we assume the Creator of the universe exists and was revealing Himself to neolithic tribes what should He have written in His book of revelation. How should He have described the process of creation. Should He have used quantum theory? Should He have written a biochemical treatise on evolution? Critics never think completely through their own rhetoric. It makes perfect sense that God would use the language and thought of the animals He was revealing Himself to when revealing Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I don't think that I have the energy to present the current fundie argument for the long-term consistency and reliability of radiometric dating, latest human footprint claim or tree growing through all layers of rock derptitude. As far as metaphor in the creation accounts in Genesis, Joseph Campbell has presented an interesting take on the garden of Eden and and alternative perspective on the Cherubim in light of Eastern mythology and symbolism (as well as Western aboriginal myths). Were the Cherubim physically guarding the tree of life, or were they symbols of the journeyman's anxiety, signaling for the weary traveler to calm his fears and enter bravely? Where is our biblical champion who dares to defy the lions? I lack energy and crave flesh! What drivel. You have arbitrarily chosen to believe one myth over another. That is not rational. I believe in Christianity because of the totality of evidence not because I understand everything. The preponderance of evidence points to the truth of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The alternatives are far, far more unbelievable. It is wishful thinking to think that the universe came into being from nothing with no Creator. It is wishful thinking to believe the first single celled organisms came into being spontaneously through necessity and chance. It is wishful thinking to believe there is no life after death dispute the enormous evidence for the supernatural. It is wishful thinking to believe the irrational hatred for the Jews is a quirk of history. Anti-Christians lie to themselves because they are afraid of truth. You crave self adulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Anti-Christians lie to themselves because they are afraid of truth. You crave self adulation. (Springy G touches the screen with one hand, and the oath-ring around Her neck with the other, and softly chants the invocation that turns the ring up to 11) For that lie about us, OC, may the truth reduce your faith to smouldering rubble. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creative Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 I don't think that I have the energy to present the current fundie argument for the long-term consistency and reliability of radiometric dating, latest human footprint claim or tree growing through all layers of rock derptitude. As far as metaphor in the creation accounts in Genesis, Joseph Campbell has presented an interesting take on the garden of Eden and and alternative perspective on the Cherubim in light of Eastern mythology and symbolism (as well as Western aboriginal myths). Were the Cherubim physically guarding the tree of life, or were they symbols of the journeyman's anxiety, signaling for the weary traveler to calm his fears and enter bravely? Where is our biblical champion who dares to defy the lions? I lack energy and crave flesh! What drivel. You have arbitrarily chosen to believe one myth over another. That is not rational. I believe in Christianity because of the totality of evidence not because I understand everything. The preponderance of evidence points to the truth of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The alternatives are far, far more unbelievable. It is wishful thinking to think that the universe came into being from nothing with no Creator. It is wishful thinking to believe the first single celled organisms came into being spontaneously through necessity and chance. It is wishful thinking to believe there is no life after death dispute the enormous evidence for the supernatural. It is wishful thinking to believe the irrational hatred for the Jews is a quirk of history. Anti-Christians lie to themselves because they are afraid of truth. You crave self adulation. What evidence? A book written by people (in the bronze age) who claim they where instructed by god, full of contradictions and falls information? Or simply the lack of a better explanation is evidence that god exist? The universe came in to being from nothing? Where did god come from? Noting? Always existed? Does that make any more sense? Evidence of the supernatural? What evidence? I challenge you to provide evidence. But please look up the meaning of the word evidence first. Christians lie to themselves because they have being indoctrinated with fear. You are afraid to disobey god because you believe he will send you to hell if your not a good Christian, BUT he loves you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Anti-Christians lie to themselves because they are afraid of truth. You crave self adulation. Don't project. To blame someone of being "afraid of the truth" who, in most cases, became an ex-christian specifically because she could not deny the truth any longer is beyond any word one can use. One would need a word for "unbefuckinglievably to the power of 17" regarding the irony of the above-quoted bullcrap. The truth is that, whatever supernatural concept/idea/entity may be true (most people here will say "none at all", some, like me, will disagree), yours clearly ain't. The entire wholly babble is a cheap rip-off of pretty much all other religions of "babblical" times and regions, with nothing worth mentioning added that could pass as "creative" in any way. But hey, keep babbling your shit all across these forums... good job strengthening the resolve of all our ex-christians who might at times wonder whether they did the right thing leaving the cult. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted May 3, 2013 Moderator Share Posted May 3, 2013 I don't think that I have the energy to present the current fundie argument for the long-term consistency and reliability of radiometric dating, latest human footprint claim or tree growing through all layers of rock derptitude. As far as metaphor in the creation accounts in Genesis, Joseph Campbell has presented an interesting take on the garden of Eden and and alternative perspective on the Cherubim in light of Eastern mythology and symbolism (as well as Western aboriginal myths). Were the Cherubim physically guarding the tree of life, or were they symbols of the journeyman's anxiety, signaling for the weary traveler to calm his fears and enter bravely? Where is our biblical champion who dares to defy the lions? I lack energy and crave flesh! What drivel. You have arbitrarily chosen to believe one myth over another. That is not rational. I believe in Christianity because of the totality of evidence not because I understand everything. The preponderance of evidence points to the truth of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The alternatives are far, far more unbelievable. It is wishful thinking to think that the universe came into being from nothing with no Creator. It is wishful thinking to believe the first single celled organisms came into being spontaneously through necessity and chance. It is wishful thinking to believe there is no life after death dispute the enormous evidence for the supernatural. It is wishful thinking to believe the irrational hatred for the Jews is a quirk of history. Anti-Christians lie to themselves because they are afraid of truth. You crave self adulation. Thanks for reminding me of why I've had you blocked for several months. Won't you tell me how I did with my first response from a Christian perspective, or at least share your interpretations of the creation myths in the bible? I'd like to see you answer SOMETHING before I block you again. Oh, and I SO crave adulation. Everyone in my circles just LOVES how I disagree with them about their most cherished beliefs. My extended family looks up to me for it and wishes that their children had such a wonderful, enlightened father-figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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