Immorality Causes Faith

[Guest r3alchild]

Christians the world over proclaim how people who think they are moral rarely think of god and that those that do are people who recognize there immorality and want to get well. I have found that much of my faith in god was due to struggling with my immorality and trying to find the best way to be well. But even after I left christianity my desperate attempts for answers to dealing with issues of immorality would eventaly lead me back to my old faith.

 

Understanding and dealing with my own immorality has been the hardest of all my journeys and I am still left without knowing what these things really mean.

[Geezer]

Sad isn’t it. What is and is not considered “moral” is determined by collectives. Sometimes these definitions are determined by large populated collectives often identified as the views of society in general.  Smaller populated collectives, however, such as religious, political, or academic groups determine what is or is not moral for their adherents.

 

Religion is unique in that they have redefined morality and labeled immorality as sin. Since a lot of what is defined as immoral has a direct connection to normal human desires overcoming sin essentially becomes a battle against normal human needs and desires.  In the real world that means that sin, or satisfying normal human needs and desires, usually wins out.

 

That’s why so many Church leaders have been caught with their pants literally down. Their basic need for human pleasure often overcomes their fear of hell and punishment. And of course, all they have to do is tell God they're sorry and the sin problem is fixed. Sin, Satan, Heaven, Jesus, Faith, Salvation, Forgiveness are all human creations. In order for religion to survive it was necessary to create a system of rewards (eternal life & rich blessing here on earth) and punishment (eternal punishment in the fires of hell). This system of rewards and punishment is obviously a tool designed to control people. The true definition of sin is that it’s a tool used to manipulate people.

 

People who manage to free themselves from the clutches of a manmade religion realize there is no such thing as sin. Society, for the most part, determines what is and is not moral and that is subject to change with the passing of time. Fifty years ago homosexuality was widely considered to be immoral (sinful), but that is clearly no longer the prevailing view in this country.

 

IMO, you are not a fully deconverted Christian until you realize sin is a manmade concept  that has no relevance outside the walls of institutional religion.

[Geezer]

......Understanding and dealing with my own immorality has been the hardest of all my journeys and I am still left without knowing what these things really mean.

 

 

I can relate to that. I was a hard core Christian fundamentalist for 40+ years. Deconversion is a process not an event. It often takes years and years to be deprogrammed. In my case the key was education, education, and more education. There is an abundance of excellent books written by gifted scholars that reveal the history and truth of religion. Read, read, read.....the Truth will indeed set you free!

[RipVanWinkle]

Geezer is absolutely right. I think one of real smart things the Catholic church did was to

institute the Confession. Not the "right" thing, but smart. The church recognized that humans

could not comply with the prohibitions in its religion, sex in particular. It would be

impossible for people to stop "doing what comes naturally". This was and is great for the church. But

continuous guilt over sexual and other "sinful" thoughts and actions wasn't going to be conducive to

maintaining a submissive, satisfied flock of sheep. They would always be saddled with guilt and unrest. They wanted to be reassured, not condemned, for being a member of the church. So, if they were

forgiven by the church, as god's "agent", on a repeated basis, the church would forever be in control, the flock would be obliging, and the church would be in a perfect position to continually monitor the

flock and thereby know best how to maintain its dictatorial power.

 

bill

[Joshpantera]

But even after I left christianity my desperate attempts for answers to dealing with issues of immorality would eventaly lead me back to my old faith.

 

Geezer is largely correct and well spoken on the matter. 

 

 

 

Religion is unique in that they have redefined morality and labeled immorality as sin. Since a lot of what is defined as immoral has a direct connection to normal human desires overcoming sin essentially becomes a battle against normal human needs and desires.  In the real world that means that sin, or satisfying normal human needs and desires, usually wins out.

 

The more I got to thinking about this in my ex-C years the more I began to realize that they've basically demonized the animal instincts of the human, well, animal! 

 

You start out with the assertion that we're NOT animals in the first place, but rather living souls breathed directly into the "dust of the eath." With sin man declines from a Golden Age type nature into an animal nature which is to be fought against and rejected. This is probably a reflection of the Zoroastrian influence where a good deity creates a perfect world after which an evil deity comes along and infuses bad into nature. Post exile Jews adopted many views from Zoroastrianism. 

 

But in any case, what we're looking at here is a religious cult emerging among a species of Great Ape (always keep in mind that humans ARE Great Apes now, not simply evolved from them and now something entirely different) ashamed of their natural, animal instincts and seeking to repress them even to the point of circumcising our children so that our males stand apart from the other males of the animal kingdom. Everything about these western religious cults screams of human beings trying to separate themselves from nature, and usually failing in the process. 

 

The urge to fight, kill, lash out, hate, or love, hug, kiss, have sex, etc. are all feelings and emotions derived straight from our animal ancestry. We find some of these favorable and some unfavorable, but all are natural. Hitting the nail on the head can help when it comes to trying to navigate the issue of morality on your own free and clear of institutional religion and it's dogma. 

 

I wonder what exactly you see as immorality in yourself? 

 

Is it simply animal instinct when all is stripped bare? 

[seeker001]

Everyone has personal issues and uncertainty; anyone who doesn't is in denial. Faith is a way for people to find a personal code live up, to try and strive for a sense of self-mastery. But the problem is we are human, and no one is perfect. What is "perfection"? What is "failure"? They are manmade labels for the result of an action.  This is an uncertain, dynamic world and we all have our doubts hopes and dreams.

 

I don't think its immorality that causes faith but uncertainty. 

What is the right/wrong thing?

Am I doing the right thing?
What is the answer to all of life's questions?
How did the universe start?
What happens to me after I die?
What happens to the essence of me?

What is wrong with me?

 

Unfortunately, no one has an answer to any of these questions, but religion offers one providing people with a security blanket. Even in religion there is still a sense of uncertainty but many of those concerns are handwaved away.

[Vigile]

What is immorality? 

 

The term is subjective, so it can't by definition be a causal factor.

 

Christianity defines certain precepts and then provides its own solution to a problem of its own making.  This is what is referred to as a false dichotomy -- a psychological trap that puts its victims on a hamster wheel where they run from phony demons and run toward phony rewards until they question the premise.  Most, it seems, are unable or unwilling to question the premise.