Ravenstar Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 play nice guys it's the weekend! Mental illness is sorely misunderstood.. and it covers an extremely wide group of behaviors. Most mentally ill people are not psychotic, as in, they haven't lost total grip on reality... that's insanity, a variant of mental illness. Most mental illness probably falls more in the neurotic group, not the psychotic. Some mental illness is a biochemical thing.. like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia... but the vast majority of mental illness is a dysfunction of adaptation, it's maladaption to reality. It's a dysfunctional way of reacting to life... one example is PTSD, which is a learned reaction to traumatic situations... which actually may save your life by making you more sensitive to danger... but in a non-emergency it is dysfunctional and causes it's sufferers a lot of problems. Mental illness is a continuum though, and none of us are completely mentally healthy - it's a matter of degrees and also social expectations. What might be considered crazy in one culture may be perfectly acceptable in another. I think religion is much the same... it's a continuum.... some 'spiritual' people are very functional, some are dangerously whacked.. and it IS related to the kind of belief system they adhere to. Some religious belief systems are far more dysfunctional and delusional than others. So I think rather that it is a self-perpetuating thing.. the more delusional beliefs attract the more mentally ill believers and the believers create/promote the religious beliefs that reflect their delusions. and around and around it goes. The unethical use religious delusion to further their need for power and that adds to the entire thing. Do I think religion is a mental illness? Yes, at some level... but it seems sometimes to be a benign or even helpful one.. and sometimes a deadly dangerous one... the jury is out on whether ALL religion is dysfunctional. However I think (project) that as the world becomes more educated that religion will show itself to be more and more a dysfunction.. or at least an outdated adaptation for social structure and function. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HitchWithMe Posted May 4, 2013 Author Share Posted May 4, 2013 Thanks ravenstar 3dollarbill: I really do love this site and as someone leaving faith recently I've let my disdain for the world I'm leaving taint my writing experience online. I've been snarky and been an asshole. I've learned a lot for people's comments and love the support that people give. The thing I wrote IS NOT as well thought out as I thought it was when I hit the post button and the comments I've received have given good reason to think about how I've written and my arguments as well as how revise them in the future. In short (I know - I'm bad at short too) - I feel like I'm learning more in an hour online than I did in an hour long class in college. Some of the things you've posted I disagree with and some have given me pause and reflection - I'm actively involved in the learning process and I want that process to be positive and honest. I do not want to be snarky or an asshole - and I've been both and I apologize. I think raven star is right we should play nice I have no doubt we agree on a hell of a lot more than we would ever disagree on; especially on this site. So I genuinely want to hear causation / correlation from an economist's perspective. I'm not going to pokes holes at it and I'm not going to be an asshole - but I am going to read it and reflect. So fire away - I'm listening no bull shit on my part. I'd swear to god but it'd have little weight on this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 play nice guys it's the weekend! Mental illness is sorely misunderstood.. and it covers an extremely wide group of behaviors. Most mentally ill people are not psychotic, as in, they haven't lost total grip on reality... that's insanity, a variant of mental illness. Most mental illness probably falls more in the neurotic group, not the psychotic. Some mental illness is a biochemical thing.. like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia... but the vast majority of mental illness is a dysfunction of adaptation, it's maladaption to reality. It's a dysfunctional way of reacting to life... one example is PTSD, which is a learned reaction to traumatic situations... which actually may save your life by making you more sensitive to danger... but in a non-emergency it is dysfunctional and causes it's sufferers a lot of problems. Mental illness is a continuum though, and none of us are completely mentally healthy - it's a matter of degrees and also social expectations. What might be considered crazy in one culture may be perfectly acceptable in another. I think religion is much the same... it's a continuum.... some 'spiritual' people are very functional, some are dangerously whacked.. and it IS related to the kind of belief system they adhere to. Some religious belief systems are far more dysfunctional and delusional than others. So I think rather that it is a self-perpetuating thing.. the more delusional beliefs attract the more mentally ill believers and the believers create/promote the religious beliefs that reflect their delusions. and around and around it goes. The unethical use religious delusion to further their need for power and that adds to the entire thing. Do I think religion is a mental illness? Yes, at some level... but it seems sometimes to be a benign or even helpful one.. and sometimes a deadly dangerous one... the jury is out on whether ALL religion is dysfunctional. However I think (project) that as the world becomes more educated that religion will show itself to be more and more a dysfunction.. or at least an outdated adaptation for social structure and function. I have bipolar disorder. It is indeed a biochemical thing, but there is good evidence too that the brains of bipolar people are structurally different as well. I'm rarely psychotic, but I am prone to intense bouts of religiosity that manifest either as brief returns to Christian faith or an intense interest in Eastern religion. Just for the record, I have bipolar type 2, which means that I don't get the intense manias that bipolar 1 people experience. I tend to have greater problems with depression than I do mania. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Yes, there is evidence with the amygdala and other structural areas in the brain for both bipolar and also personality disorders and schizophrenia.. there are differences.. the research is new but it's there. I would think the correlation between that and religiosity has not yet been studied, but it's very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Well, religiosity is a known feature of bipolar mania, but I bet you are right that the correlation between brain structure and religiosity has not been studied. Sure will be interesting to see what the research shows when they get around to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 4, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted May 4, 2013 I think religion is much the same... it's a continuum.... some 'spiritual' people are very functional, some are dangerously whacked Quite true. I do believe that some existing disorders can draw people to religion - low self esteem, depression, paranoia for example. Those particular examples can also be induced by religion if a person is susceptible to the indoctrination. How many essentially normal people get wrapped up in End Times and Hell paranoia after being introduced to religion? When seeking "salvation" one must recognize his own unworthiness. It's a twisted philosophy and it causes harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted May 4, 2013 Share Posted May 4, 2013 Ravenstar: Your comments appear to me to of textbook quality, but better. I have one observation about your comments. The world certainly is getting better educated, but it is distressing that perhaps a majority of people in the world eschew reading and education. As you know some types of Xtians are actually hostile to knowledge. I've run across them and they are impossible to reason with. Will that element of religion (not just Xtian) ever change? I have serious doubts. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardus Posted May 5, 2013 Share Posted May 5, 2013 Questioner: Good on ya for taking the high road and doing your best to be open and polite despite 3dollarbill being an arsepore and trying to pick a fight. More relative to the topic now: I did have a thought that religion may foster codependent pathology. With the general mysogony of religion you get a lot of women becoming enablers for jerks. I wonder if that has been studied. Will have to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HitchWithMe Posted May 5, 2013 Author Share Posted May 5, 2013 Questioner: Good on ya for taking the high road and doing your best to be open and polite despite 3dollarbill being an arsepore and trying to pick a fight. More relative to the topic now: I did have a thought that religion may foster codependent pathology. With the general mysogony of religion you get a lot of women becoming enablers for jerks. I wonder if that has been studied. Will have to look. I think that may be changing for the better. I had a senior pastor tell a Sunday school class that if a man hit hit wife - he had broken his marriage vows. This is of course highly subjective as the "love your wife as yourself" appeal had no historical backbone if put in the historical context. These words come from Paul and he also encouraged women to be quiet and submissive - never speaking in church, and to find her salvation through her husband. This pastor was also divorced and remarried - so he had a bit of a vested interest in making divorced an acceptable thing. His congregation was varied on that issue and many thought that divorce was for life even if that meant physical, emotional or verbal abuse. Which is a great reason why to believe can harm people on a variety of fronts. Sam Harris has talked about the link between religion and abuse. I believe in the end of faith or letter to a Christian nation he reported that the greatest predictiors of abuse in a family are 1) illegal drug use 2) alcohol use 3) religion. Sometimes it's a frightening world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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