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Has anyone been bothered by the possibility that maybe it's all true and you were never saved correctly?

 

There is a guy named Ovid Need who makes one of the more convincing rants to this effect.

 

http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/salvation.shtml

 

There are also Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, etc.

 

What these guys all say is that altar calls, "asking Jesus into your heart" etc. are all invalid and you

have to repeeeeent and then trust particularly in the penal substitutionary atonement.

 

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Guest r3alchild

Yeah just another we are the ones who know what you don't cult. Even the deceivers of the faith pose the concept that the rest are deceivers. Who can tell the deception from the deception? No one because its all a deception.

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Considering there are 30,000 some odd xian denominations that can't agree with one another, the No True Scotsman fallacy rings pretty stark here.  And I didn't even mention the fact that the notion of salvation is predicated on an utter dearth of evidence and laughable claims. 

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Has anyone been bothered by the possibility that maybe it's all true and you were never saved correctly?

 

There is a guy named Ovid Need who makes one of the more convincing rants to this effect.

 

http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/salvation.shtml

 

There are also Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, etc.

 

What these guys all say is that altar calls, "asking Jesus into your heart" etc. are all invalid and you

have to repeeeeent and then trust particularly in the penal substitutionary atonement.

 

I've done both. I've responded to altar calls and I've stayed in my pew and instead engaged in (at least what I thought was) active and ongoing repentance and rested in the finished work of Jesus Christ. I've listened to Ray Comfort. I've heard John MacArthur and John Piper preach about Lordship Salvation. I've read Christless Christianty and I've taken opportunities to actively participate in the Means of Grace (apparently to my greater condemnation). Yep, I think I've covered just about every angle on the gospel from the Evangelical perspective.

 

I've never felt compelled to try out Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox's gospels, however. Nor do I feel the need to give Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormonism's gospels a chance either. I guess those were all just too much work. wink.png

 

As Vigile noted, the fact that there are so many groups calling themselves Christian and that many of them can't seem to agree on something very basic and incredibly important like how the hell we're supposed to be saved stands as a pretty strong indicator that either God has a huge problem being understood by human beings, or he's made it so only a select group among many has gotten it right with no way for the rest of us to easily figure out which one.

 

Or...you know...he doesn't actually exist.

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I guess one has to do the proper ritual, exactly right with no variation, or it just doesn't take.  Now, if we could just figure out which is the proper ritual than we could try it again and really be saved.  The author of the article was so good to provide us with the exact words of the incantation.  They are the words of C.H. Spurgeon which he quoted as being the best description of true Salvation.  So, here you go, you must utter these words exactly as stated or your salvation won't take:

 

Say, `Lord, I deserve to die; I deserve to perish; I deserve to be destroyed. I will have no cavils with Thee about my sentence, for how can a worm dispute with the Almighty? Who am I that I should reply against my Maker?'"

 

  "When you have taken that position, rely upon the freeness of divine grace. Grasp, as with a death-clutch, this great fact and say, 'Lord, Thou dost forgive sinners for Thine own name's sake. Thou canst not find anything in us that is good, anything that can move Thee to pity! But, oh, by Thy mercy and Thy love, let men see what a gracious God thou art! For Thy great name's sake have mercy upon us, and save us!'"

 

  "You can plead that Jesus said, `Him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out.' [Jn 6:37] And that he has bidden his servants say, `Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved;"

  "...Let the wicked forsake his ways, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God for He will abundantly pardon."

 

  "I cast aside all my former confidences, and all my boastings, and come as the worst sinner must come, for I feel that, in some respects, I am the worst sinner who ever came to thee. I come as an utterly lost, undone, bankrupt sinner, and I look to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus for all I need." [Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol. 53, Sermon "Rule of Grace," pp 500-502, Pilgrim Publications, Pasadena TX]

 

And this answers a common accusation made by Christians against those of us who deconverted:  You were never a true Christian.  I guess if we didn't invoke this incantation, then we weren't true Christians.  I wonder how many of our accusers followed these instructions?

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And this answers a common accusation made by Christians against those of us who deconverted:  You were never a true Christian.  I guess if we didn't invoke this incantation, then we weren't true Christians.  I wonder how many of our accusers followed these instructions?

 

No, see. You have to really, really mean it when you say the magic words. The magic only works if you truly believe and if you truly believe the magic always works. If the magic didn't work for you, it's because you didn't truly believe. You gotta believe!

 

Why does that sound like a line from a cheesy holiday special?

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Hasn't bothered me since I was a kid. It really doesn't matter to me what any one christian or denomination says it 'the truth'. A thousand other churches have equally (in)valid arguments that THEIR version of the meme is in fact 'the truth'.

 

But the one explanation that makes it ALL fit together is this: Christianity amounts to little more than culture, myth, and conjecture.

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And this answers a common accusation made by Christians against those of us who deconverted:  You were never a true Christian.  I guess if we didn't invoke this incantation, then we weren't true Christians.  I wonder how many of our accusers followed these instructions?

 

No, see. You have to really, really mean it when you say the magic words. The magic only works if you truly believe and if you truly believe the magic always works. If the magic didn't work for you, it's because you didn't truly believe. You gotta believe!

 

Why does that sound like a line from a cheesy holiday special?

 

 

So true.  There must always be an out to explain why some of us leave the religion behind.  Otherwise, there must be a problem with Christianity.  Hmm.....

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According to Ezek 18:20-28, each person can save themselves by repenting and observing the law.

There isn't any need for Jesus.

Christians then claim that God scrapped his "old" system and invented a new one (that contradicts the laws he previously gave).

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Stop reading my posts and telling my parents. This site is supposed to be confidential and I'm using an alias for a reason!

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Has anyone been bothered by the possibility that maybe it's all true and you were never saved correctly?

 

 

It use to bother me all the time back when I was a young Christian.  When I left Christianity I then realized why.  The Bible authors could not agree on what one must do in order to be saved.  The Bible sends mixed messages.

 

 

 

Today as an atheist it doesn't bother me at all.  Have you ever heard an offer that was too good to be true?  Let me put it another way.  How many times have you given your bank account number to a retired Nigerian cabinet minister?  All you had to do was send them an e-mail and you were promised half of a large sum - say 30 million buck.  Why didn't you jump at the chance?  Fifteen million dollars isn't enough of a reward for you to send an e-mail?  Or is the reward so over the top that you can tell that it was a scam?  Well heaven is so much more than a few million dollars.  Heaven is perfect health care forever.  Heaven is renting the most expensive hotel forever.  Heaven is eating at the most expensive resturant forever.  And all you have to do is say a prayer?

 

Well just like the Nigerian scam if you fall for it you soon discover that you gave up a lot more than they said you would.  Essentially you have to become a slave and live your life however the Christian leaders tell you to live.  And you never see heaven.  Heaven is something they never deliver.  They just tell you that you go there when you die so they don't have to give you anything in return.  Christianity is slavery.

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You cant be saved. Literally the bible says as much. Every path to heaven excludes the other you cant combine them. like "he who does not reject his mother father sister and brother cannot be my followers" vs "You must hold all of the commandments to enter the kingdom of heaven"  well there is a commandment in there somewhere oh yeah RESPECT THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER

 

lol you cant win in Christianity everyone is going to hell zDuivel2.gif

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What's that stench?

 

Oh... it's the stink of my unborn sister's burning flesh! 

 

According to pastor Ovid Need's take on scripture, my sis will burn in Hell forever... Glory be to Jesus!

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So how's a unborn child (who is a person, according to the Christian pro-lifers) going to be able to do any of the what Need describes?

 

The true plan of Salvation was best described by C.H. Spurgeon:

 

  "The gospel is that Jesus Christ suffered in the place of all sinners who trust Him as their Saviour; that He endured what they ought to have endured and made atonement to God for all the sins that they would ever commit; and if you thus trust Him, you are saved. The simple act of relying upon Jesus as your Substitute and Saviour puts away your guilt and sin forever." He continues, "...Pride must come down, self- righteousness must die, and the sinner must glorify the grace of God by knowing that he has no merit of his own, or he cannot be saved. ...Say, `Lord, I deserve to die; I deserve to perish; I deserve to be destroyed. I will have no cavils with Thee about my sentence, for how can a worm dispute with the Almighty? Who am I that I should reply against my Maker?'"

 

Q.

If this is exactly and precisely the only true way a sinner comes to Jesus, where does this leave my sister?

A.

Damned to eternal hellfire - courtesy of the love of Jesus.

 

Observe: First, we must realize we are sinners without hope. Second, we must recognize that we can do nothing at all to avoid the wages of our sin. Third, we must understand that Christ paid all the penalty for our sin through His atoning sacrifice, enduring what we should endure. Fourth, the sinner must rely upon Jesus as his Substitute for his sins and as his Saviour, confessing this verbally. Fifth, this simple act puts away the guilt of sin forever. Anything less than this is not Biblical Salvation. If these basic things are not made clear to the sinner before he makes a profession, then it is impossible for him to be saved. [Eph 1:12-14]

 

Five definite and conscious decisions on the part of my sinful, unborn sister. Otherwise... it is impossible for her to be saved. 

So how could she have carried out these five decisions in the womb, Pastor Need?

 

Matthew 7:21-23 strikes at the heart of the matter. First, Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven... The sinner might have cried out, "Lord, save me," or, "Lord, I trust you to come into my heart and save me," but he did not have a clear understanding of the substitutionary, redemptive work of Christ. Or maybe he did not have the Holy Spirit's light to enable him to understand the substitutionary death and payment for his sins. [1 Cor 2:10-16; 2 Cor 4:3-6. God's judgement will be according to His one standard of truth, Rom 2.] Whatever is prayed must be firmly grounded in understanding and receiving what Christ has done for the sinner, or they shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

Q.

What understanding of Christ's substitutionary, redemptive work did my sister have before she died?

A.

None.  Therefore she's toast... forever!  Praise Jesus!

 

An objection to our argument for the necessity of a clear understanding of Christ's work might be: "I didn't understand about Christ's redemptive work when I made my profession, but I do now, so I'm OK." Observe: Ephesians 1:13, In whom ye also trusted after...ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; Romans 10:14, How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed (trusted)? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?; So then faith cometh by hearing... Clearly, according to God's word, trust and reliance thus Salvation can only come after hearing and understanding the truth of Christ's atoning work.

 

So how could my unborn sister have heard God's word (the Bible) and come to trust, rely and understand Christ's atoning work?

Oh... and what about the billions of other unborn children like her, who died before drawing breath?

 

Note that we are not speaking against reaching children for the Lord. Obviously, our future hope lies in reaching young people for the Kingdom's sake and teaching them to observe all the Lord's commands. We must do all we can to reach children for Christ, [Lk 18:6] but for us to say there is a way for anyone to come to Christ other than through His substitutionary death corrupts ..And him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out. Everlasting life comes only through trusting Christ as our Substitute and Saviour. We cannot add or detract anything, for His revealed plan is complete. [Jn 6:40; Rev 22:19]

 

"We cannot add or detract anything, [God's word...scripture] for his revealed plan is complete."

 

Q.

So, if scripture is God's completed plan of salvation, from which nothing can be added or taken away, what use was it to my sister?

A.

None at all.  She was conceived without hope of salvation... as Hell fodder.

 

 

 

Thanks Jesus.

 

BAA.

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Has anyone been bothered by the possibility that maybe it's all true and you were never saved correctly?

 

There is a guy named Ovid Need who makes one of the more convincing rants to this effect.

 

http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/salvation.shtml

 

There are also Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, etc.

 

What these guys all say is that altar calls, "asking Jesus into your heart" etc. are all invalid and you

have to repeeeeent and then trust particularly in the penal substitutionary atonement.

Which pretty much sums up salvation to luck.  Because if the churches in your area don't follow doctrine A, B, or C.  Well, you're eternally fucked.

 

He's such a just and compassionate God.  I love him so much!

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You cant be saved. Literally the bible says as much. Every path to heaven excludes the other you cant combine them. like "he who does not reject his mother father sister and brother cannot be my followers" vs "You must hold all of the commandments to enter the kingdom of heaven"  well there is a commandment in there somewhere oh yeah RESPECT THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER

 

lol you cant win in Christianity everyone is going to hell :Duivel:

I like the way you out that. I've seen much the same thing myself, and it's one big reason why I couldn't really buy into it even as a kid. But I never expressed it exactly this way: taken at face value, there IS no viable path to salvation described in the bible. You can't follow any one 'path' without violating multiple commands, rules, doctrines, etc.

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Has anyone been bothered by the possibility that maybe it's all true and you were never saved correctly?

 

There is a guy named Ovid Need who makes one of the more convincing rants to this effect.

 

http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/salvation.shtml

 

There are also Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, etc.

 

What these guys all say is that altar calls, "asking Jesus into your heart" etc. are all invalid and you

have to repeeeeent and then trust particularly in the penal substitutionary atonement.

Which pretty much sums up salvation to luck.  Because if the churches in your area don't follow doctrine A, B, or C.  Well, you're eternally fucked.

 

He's such a just and compassionate God.  I love him so much!

 

Yep...if no one tells you the exact correct way then you're fucked. Good point. I gotta give Mr. Need credit for really knowing how to

nitpick through the biblical text, though. It's a weird sort of talent.

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Has anyone been bothered by the possibility that maybe it's all true and you were never saved correctly?

 

There is a guy named Ovid Need who makes one of the more convincing rants to this effect.

 

http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/salvation.shtml

 

There are also Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, etc.

 

What these guys all say is that altar calls, "asking Jesus into your heart" etc. are all invalid and you

have to repeeeeent and then trust particularly in the penal substitutionary atonement.

 

So you mean all Jesus had to do when I was standing there in the water after being baptised was say, "No, don't ask me into your heart but repent and trust." Gosh, it would have been so easy if only Jesus had SAID SOMETHING. While I was there DEDICATING MY LIFE TO JESUS if only he had advised me that the pastor and the whole congregation must be CLUELESS about salvation as they watched me get dunked, I might be a Christian today. Instead Jesus let me just think I was saved for all those years instead of actually being saved. (uppercase was for emphasis only). Why didn't Jesus refer me to Ovid Need, Paul Washer or Ray Comfort back then? Why did Jesus let me fail?

 

Why does such a simple act of salvation as portrayed in John 3:16 turn complex when someone says, "I used to be a Christian but I am not anymore." Well of course, you were never a real Christian! Didn't anyone in that church you attended for a decade tell you that you weren't saved correctly? While you were reading your bible, praying, attending giant outdoor stadiums of Jesus lovers all praying together to be great men in Christ, teaching Sunday school, evangelizing kids in poor neighborhoods, giving the church money....  but no, I was never saved because Jesus never told me I was doing it wrong. Sigh. Jesus let me fail.

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Another charming and delightful 'benefit' of pastor Ovid Need's theology is what it does to Christian families.  If Christian parents want their children to properly saved then they've got to teach their kids the following.

 

1.

They must teach their children that they deserve to die.

 

2.

They must teach their children that they deserve to be destroyed.

 

3.

They must teach their children that their punishment is unavoidable.

 

4.

They must teach their children that they are worms who are unfit to dispute anything with God.

 

5.

They must teach their children that without God they are utterly lost.

 

6.

They must teach their children that they are sinners, without hope of ever being anything else - unless they are saved.

 

7.

They must teach their children that they are on the way to Hell - unless they are saved.

 

8.

They must teach their children to repent of their sins. 

If the kids don't do this and put their trust in Jesus to deliver them from their sins, they are doomed to eternal hellfire.

 

9.

They must teach their children to turn away from their sins.

 

10.

They must teach their children that unless and until the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin, all of their efforts to escape the everlasting flames will be futile.  It doesn't matter how much the children weep, how sincerely they ask Jesus to save them or how intense their feelings of distress might be.  None of that matters.  Unless the children are convicted of their burden of sin by the Holy Spirit first, they cannot be brought to the foot of the cross and accept Jesus' sacrifice on their behalf - His substitutionary payment of the wages of sin.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

All which makes me wonder if the good Pastor subjected his children to this kind of mental torture and emotional abuse.

 

Excuse me while I go and vomit!

 

BAA

 

 

 

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Another charming and delightful 'benefit' of pastor Ovid Need's theology is what it does to Christian families.  If Christian parents want their children to properly saved then they've got to teach their kids the following.

 

1.

They must teach their children that they deserve to die.

 

2.

They must teach their children that they deserve to be destroyed.

 

3.

They must teach their children that their punishment is unavoidable.

 

4.

They must teach their children that they are worms who are unfit to dispute anything with God.

 

5.

They must teach their children that without God they are utterly lost.

 

6.

They must teach their children that they are sinners, without hope of ever being anything else - unless they are saved.

 

7.

They must teach their children that they are on the way to Hell - unless they are saved.

 

8.

They must teach their children to repent of their sins. 

If the kids don't do this and put their trust in Jesus to deliver them from their sins, they are doomed to eternal hellfire.

 

9.

They must teach their children to turn away from their sins.

 

10.

They must teach their children that unless and until the Holy Spirit convicts them of their sin, all of their efforts to escape the everlasting flames will be futile.  It doesn't matter how much the children weep, how sincerely they ask Jesus to save them or how intense their feelings of distress might be.  None of that matters.  Unless the children are convicted of their burden of sin by the Holy Spirit first, they cannot be brought to the foot of the cross and accept Jesus' sacrifice on their behalf - His substitutionary payment of the wages of sin.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

All which makes me wonder if the good Pastor subjected his children to this kind of mental torture and emotional abuse.

 

Excuse me while I go and vomit!

 

BAA

I do know from poking around that site that Mr. Need sent his daughter to New Bethany back in 91. She was a troublesome 13 year old, I guess, but a few weeks with child molester Mack Ford turned her around good! Yech.

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Has anyone been bothered by the possibility that maybe it's all true and you were never saved correctly?

 

 

No. Well, at least not after I figured out there isn't anything to be saved from. Once I became convinced that sin, God, Heaven, Hell, Church, and Jesus were all mythical human creations I also discovered what it means to be truly free.

 

When I was a Christian I was a member of the Church of Christ therefore I knew it was not possible to know if you were saved or not. According to their thinking and beliefs a person could be both saved and lost multiple times a day. If you happen to die during a saved cycle you "might" be okay, but it really wasn't likely that you would have the opportunity to plead with God to forgive all your sins before you croaked, so a member of the Church of Christ chances of going to heaven were slim and none. After awhile it dawned on me it was all a crap shoot and not really worth the effort and worry that went with it.

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My understanding is that the Eastern Orthodox church never accepted the "penal substitution atonement".  Therefore, a whole branch of Christianity is not saved.  They didn't buy into original sin or all that BS. That is why at one time it was attractive to me.

 

Anyway, no Christian really knows what a person has to do to be saved.

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To be saved, you must play the lottery (choosing the correct religion/denomination), and hope that the numbers on your ticket are all right. If just one is wrong you go to Hell forever and if they are all right you get to go to Heaven to be enslaved and programmed to be a jukebox that plays worship songs 24/7 for Yahweh/Jesus live in paradise forever.

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Y'see, this is one of the reasons I took a bodhisattva vow to go to Hell on purpose... Considerably less confusing than trying to sort through it, and infinitely less likelihood that I'd one day find Myself bullying a small child to tears over this pig manure.

 

And how long before a future edition of the DSM classifies the proselytizing-by-fear of children as a form of psychopathy?Ridigwoopsie.gif

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And how long before a future edition of the DSM classifies the proselytizing-by-fear of children as a form of psychopathy?Ridigwoopsie.gif

 

Evangelical Psychopathy? A diagnosis with that name has a nice ring to it... It might fit into the DSM quite well.

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