God Knows Their Hearts

[Guest r3alchild]

Have you ever talk to a christian and asked them, what will happen to all the people who never heard the gospel. To which you get a reply to the effect, "only god knows their hearts"

 

If salvation is based on whats in your heart then the cross of christ is useless.

 

I rest my case

[Gobbler]

It is also used as a "Get Out Of Hell Free" card when someone who was supposedly a Christian commits suicide.  That phrase is usually said during their eulogy.

[Blake]

"Only God knows their hearts" is just one of those little blanket statements that makes Christians feel better about the idea of eternal hellfire.

[mymistake]

It's also a pagan concept that Christians took over.  It comes from Egyptian religion where it was believed that everybody's heart would be weighed in a Judgement Day.  

 

http://www.egyptian-scarabs.co.uk/weighing_of_the_heart.htm

 

Judaism and Christianity took many of their ideas from Egyptian paganism.

[LifeCycle]

That kind of takes the wind outta the sails of missions doesn't it?

[Fernweh]

One would think an omnipotent god should know his creations thoughts and beliefs do not reside in the heart.

[ExCBooster]

I think it's kinda funny:

IF: God exists, THEN:

A ) missions are vitally important to keep people from going to Hell, THEREFORE God is evil, actually.

OR B ) missions aren't vitally important at all, and the whole Christian thing is pointless.

Either way, why serve an evil god, or why bother?

[milesaway]

I actually mentioned something similar here before where someone i talked to every now and then used it as their green light to be rude and treat others like crap. In this case, personal responsibility and accountability goes out the window as far as they're concerned. Either way, it's a copout to make xtians feel better about throwing others who don't subscribe to their brand of bullshit under the bus.

[Bhim]

Maybe it's just that I always hung out with the "new Reformed" crowd, ie people who read John Piper and Mark Driscoll. But the answer people typically gave to this question was that if you've never heard of Jesus, you go to hell. I'll give them this: it's more consistent than advocating salvation by ignorance. The idea is that everyone naturally deserves hell, and not knowing about Jesus doesn't redeem you from your sins. This is also what I used to believe.

[roadrunner]

I always referred people to the book of romans for this. Since the law is written on everyone's heart they will be judged according to how they responded to their convictions and god is just so it'll work itself out ....(finger in throat)  

 

EDIT: Also I mentioned this in a previos topic but simply sharing the gospel "dooms" people because at that point they have heard the message so it is up to them to respond to it and they are now accountable. Its a catch 22.

[par4dcourse]

If he knows my heart, he should trim some of the lard and roto-rooter my arteries.

[ExXex]

One question my best friend (who usually wasn't prone to philosophical thinking) asked me in middle school - 'if God knows everything about us and what's in our hearts - why don't we just go straight to heaven or hell instead of living here for a bit?'

It stumped even our super Christian RT teacher, I should've paid her more attention haha.

[boftx]

Once again, the moment you put some omni-everything attributes on an anthropomorphic "God" you create insurmountable internal contradictions. Look at it this way: A perfect "God" as described by the Bible (and as you still think of as being "God") could not allow a "God" such as himself to exist because such a "God" would violate all that "God" is supposed to be. If such a "God" did exist he would immediately have to commit suicide (condemn himself to hell) or else he would not have the attributes that define "God" as many people understand him.

 

The sooner you realize that "God" is created in the image of Man, and not the other way around, the sooner you will see that most of the questions you have been asking have no basis in reality and are of no concern in a rational human life.

[wanderinstar]

Many great points! God knows our hearts and still sits on his hands, whistling. Imagine, knowing the hearts of children being sold into slavery and their parents unable to save them, still he does NOTHING!! The christian god is an asshole, which is why I am thrilled he does not exist.

[Ellwood]

Sometimes I personalize the question like this: So a 10 year old girl growing up in North Korea where there is no opportunity to hear of xtianity dies of starvation. Where does she go? You want her to go directly to hell forever? Really? and some would say yup!

 

I sometimes think that compassion for mankind is one of the traits that we atheists have in greater measure than xtians who are ok with most of mankind going to their hell.

[Guest r3alchild]

Once again, the moment you put some omni-everything attributes on an anthropomorphic "God" you create insurmountable internal contradictions. Look at it this way: A perfect "God" as described by the Bible (and as you still think of as being "God") could not allow a "God" such as himself to exist because such a "God" would violate all that "God" is supposed to be. If such a "God" did exist he would immediately have to commit suicide (condemn himself to hell) or else he would not have the attributes that define "God" as many people understand him.

 

The sooner you realize that "God" is created in the image of Man, and not the other way around, the sooner you will see that most of the questions you have been asking have no basis in reality and are of no concern in a rational human life.

I can't, it will take the jaws of life to get those concepts out of my head.

[FloridaGirl]

Many great points! God knows our hearts and still sits on his hands, whistling. Imagine, knowing the hearts of children being sold into slavery and their parents unable to save them, still he does NOTHING!! The christian god is an asshole, which is why I am thrilled he does not exist.

Sometimes I personalize the question like this: So a 10 year old girl growing up in North Korea where there is no opportunity to hear of xtianity dies of starvation. Where does she go? You want her to go directly to hell forever? Really? and some would say yup! .

These are the very reasons I deconverted from Christianity. I have developed a strong passion for social justice and would like to be a social worker. I am actually applying to get my masters in it this year. I have delt with severe depression most of my life which developed in me a strong compassion for others who are hurting. All the evil in the world and the fact that God sends more people than not to hell ( including my loving agnostic mom) destroyed my faith. It would take a million times more "evidence" than the religious apologists can produce to convince me that a loving and just God allows such terrible things to happen in the world- then sends most people to hell.

[mymistake]

 

Once again, the moment you put some omni-everything attributes on an anthropomorphic "God" you create insurmountable internal contradictions. Look at it this way: A perfect "God" as described by the Bible (and as you still think of as being "God") could not allow a "God" such as himself to exist because such a "God" would violate all that "God" is supposed to be. If such a "God" did exist he would immediately have to commit suicide (condemn himself to hell) or else he would not have the attributes that define "God" as many people understand him.

 

The sooner you realize that "God" is created in the image of Man, and not the other way around, the sooner you will see that most of the questions you have been asking have no basis in reality and are of no concern in a rational human life.

I can't, it will take the jaws of life to get those concepts out of my head.

 

 

 

Or you need to learn more about the other gods that were created by men.  Get yourself a book or find a website on mythology.  Read about the gods and the god stories of other cultures.  The mythology in the Bible fits right in with the mythology from all the other cultures.

 

If you know what to look for you can even spot the paganism in the Old Testament.  Israel worships the god El while Joshua (Yoshua) worships the god Yahweh.  El and Yahweh were not the same God and they were not Jehova.  In Genesis the priest Melkesadek worships the God Most High.  Well the high god in their pantheon was the father of all the other gods and goddesses.  Every town and village had it's own patron god or goddess.  (Jewish) monotheism didn't start up until King Josiah's reforms where he tried to make his family's patron god the official state religion.

 

But humans have been making gods for at least as long as we have been making art.  Every pre-modern culture made gods.  It's in our nature the same way communicating is in our nature.  We still do the same thing only now it's for entertainment and we call them super heros instead.  You know - the Avengers, X-men, Superman and so on.  We love a good story about gods.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

Many great points! God knows our hearts and still sits on his hands, whistling. Imagine, knowing the hearts of children being sold into slavery and their parents unable to save them, still he does NOTHING!! The christian god is an asshole, which is why I am thrilled he does not exist.

Sometimes I personalize the question like this: So a 10 year old girl growing up in North Korea where there is no opportunity to hear of xtianity dies of starvation. Where does she go? You want her to go directly to hell forever? Really? and some would say yup! .

These are the very reasons I deconverted from Christianity. I have developed a strong passion for social justice and would like to be a social worker. I am actually applying to get my masters in it this year. I have delt with severe depression most of my life which developed in me a strong compassion for others who are hurting. All the evil in the world and the fact that God sends more people than not to hell ( including my loving agnostic mom) destroyed my faith. It would take a million times more "evidence" than the religious apologists can produce to convince me that a loving and just God allows such terrible things to happen in the world- then sends most people to hell.

Florida girl, I think that the world can't be evil and god not be true at the same time. If we are evil, then either nature has designed us to be that way or there really was a talking snake that fucked up all of human kind. If your going to toss religion out then toss out the concept of "evil" to.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

Many great points! God knows our hearts and still sits on his hands, whistling. Imagine, knowing the hearts of children being sold into slavery and their parents unable to save them, still he does NOTHING!! The christian god is an asshole, which is why I am thrilled he does not exist.

Sometimes I personalize the question like this: So a 10 year old girl growing up in North Korea where there is no opportunity to hear of xtianity dies of starvation. Where does she go? You want her to go directly to hell forever? Really? and some would say yup! .

These are the very reasons I deconverted from Christianity. I have developed a strong passion for social justice and would like to be a social worker. I am actually applying to get my masters in it this year. I have delt with severe depression most of my life which developed in me a strong compassion for others who are hurting. All the evil in the world and the fact that God sends more people than not to hell ( including my loving agnostic mom) destroyed my faith. It would take a million times more "evidence" than the religious apologists can produce to convince me that a loving and just God allows such terrible things to happen in the world- then sends most people to hell.

Florida girl, I think that the world can't be evil and god not be true at the same time. If we are evil, then either nature has designed us to be that way or there really was a talking snake that fucked up all of human kind. If your going to toss religion out then toss out the concept of "evil" to.

 

 

I don't see the purpose in throwing out the concept of evil. When religion is out of the way, I think it makes sense to refine the definition so that it makes more sense and does not include absurd, harmless things, like homosexuality, fornication between consenting adults, or picking up sticks on Saturday. Though misplaced faith can be and usually is harmful for the person who has misplaced their faith, I would still add that to the list of absurd things to consider "evil" which should be thrown out from the definition.

 

About the topic of the thread, it is wishful thinking to believe that the Bible god would let someone into Heaven because of "What's in their heart". The Bible clearly says that without faith it is impossible to please God, so it doesn't matter if you are the most loving and kind person on Earth. If you don't believe in the right stuff, BOOM, you get to burn after death.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

 

 

Many great points! God knows our hearts and still sits on his hands, whistling. Imagine, knowing the hearts of children being sold into slavery and their parents unable to save them, still he does NOTHING!! The christian god is an asshole, which is why I am thrilled he does not exist.

Sometimes I personalize the question like this: So a 10 year old girl growing up in North Korea where there is no opportunity to hear of xtianity dies of starvation. Where does she go? You want her to go directly to hell forever? Really? and some would say yup! .

These are the very reasons I deconverted from Christianity. I have developed a strong passion for social justice and would like to be a social worker. I am actually applying to get my masters in it this year. I have delt with severe depression most of my life which developed in me a strong compassion for others who are hurting. All the evil in the world and the fact that God sends more people than not to hell ( including my loving agnostic mom) destroyed my faith. It would take a million times more "evidence" than the religious apologists can produce to convince me that a loving and just God allows such terrible things to happen in the world- then sends most people to hell.

Florida girl, I think that the world can't be evil and god not be true at the same time. If we are evil, then either nature has designed us to be that way or there really was a talking snake that fucked up all of human kind. If your going to toss religion out then toss out the concept of "evil" to.

I don't see the purpose in throwing out the concept of evil. When religion is out of the way, I think it makes sense to refine the definition so that it makes more sense and does not include absurd, harmless things, like homosexuality, fornication between consenting adults, or picking up sticks on Saturday. Though misplaced faith can be and usually is harmful for the person who has misplaced their faith, I would still add that to the list of absurd things to consider "evil" which should be thrown out from the definition.

 

About the topic of the thread, it is wishful thinking to believe that the Bible god would let someone into Heaven because of "What's in their heart". The Bible clearly says that without faith it is impossible to please God, so it doesn't matter if you are the most loving and kind person on Earth. If you don't believe in the right stuff, BOOM, you get to burn after death.

And who will tell us homosexuality is not evil once evil has been redifined and how do we know who knows what evil is or is not once we redifine evil in its re defined way. No my friend we are just animals and there is no such thing as evil.

 

Evil? Its just a bullshit word

[Bhim]

And who will tell us homosexuality is not evil once evil has been redifined and how do we know who knows what evil is or is not once we redifine evil in its re defined way. No my friend we are just animals and there is no such thing as evil.

 

Evil? Its just a bullshit word

 

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but at this point the evangelical would say something along the lines of "so if there's no evil, I can punch you in the face and take your wallet, and you have no right to complain."

 

Of course the evangelical would just be using this argument as a means to get you to believe in Jesus, which doesn't logically follow.  But there is a seed of truth here: there are certain things that people in the civilized world (i.e. in non-Islamic nations) simply find offensive to our sensibilities.  Murder, theft, etc. are things we can all agree are wrong.  At the end of the day, we need to have some functional concept of evil in order to have a working society.  If you wish to use a word other than evil, that's fine.  Just be careful not to delve into moral relativism though.  I honestly know people who say that good and evil are relative concepts, and who actually conclude that it's OK for Muslims to stone adulterers, put women in burqas, chop off hands for theft, and so forth.  One need not believe in Jesus to know that our system of morality and ethics isn't just different, it's objectively better.

 

The means of defining objective good and evil needn't be based on God.  And it certainly needn't be based on Jesus (Jesus is probably best left out of morality, actually).  It can be based on utility.  We've entertained certain concepts of morality for a long time, and they've served us well in most of the world, so we can call those concepts objectively good.  What I'm saying is that even if you use a word other than evil, you'll end up retaining the idea of objective morality, because no one likes being mistreated.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

And who will tell us homosexuality is not evil once evil has been redifined and how do we know who knows what evil is or is not once we redifine evil in its re defined way. No my friend we are just animals and there is no such thing as evil.

 

Evil? Its just a bullshit word

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but at this point the evangelical would say something along the lines of "so if there's no evil, I can punch you in the face and take your wallet, and you have no right to complain."

 

Of course the evangelical would just be using this argument as a means to get you to believe in Jesus, which doesn't logically follow. But there is a seed of truth here: there are certain things that people in the civilized world (i.e. in non-Islamic nations) simply find offensive to our sensibilities. Murder, theft, etc. are things we can all agree are wrong. At the end of the day, we need to have some functional concept of evil in order to have a working society. If you wish to use a word other than evil, that's fine. Just be careful not to delve into moral relativism though. I honestly know people who say that good and evil are relative concepts, and who actually conclude that it's OK for Muslims to stone adulterers, put women in burqas, chop off hands for theft, and so forth. One need not believe in Jesus to know that our system of morality and ethics isn't just different, it's objectively better.

 

The means of defining objective good and evil needn't be based on God. And it certainly needn't be based on Jesus (Jesus is probably best left out of morality, actually). It can be based on utility. We've entertained certain concepts of morality for a long time, and they've served us well in most of the world, so we can call those concepts objectively good. What I'm saying is that even if you use a word other than evil, you'll end up retaining the idea of objective morality, because no one likes being mistreated.

Personally I don't believe there is good or evil, they are just labels we use to define our personal beliefs about the world and to segregate people from each other.

[FloridaGirl]

 

 

And who will tell us homosexuality is not evil once evil has been redifined and how do we know who knows what evil is or is not once we redifine evil in its re defined way. No my friend we are just animals and there is no such thing as evil.

Evil? Its just a bullshit word

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but at this point the evangelical would say something along the lines of "so if there's no evil, I can punch you in the face and take your wallet, and you have no right to complain."

Of course the evangelical would just be using this argument as a means to get you to believe in Jesus, which doesn't logically follow. But there is a seed of truth here: there are certain things that people in the civilized world (i.e. in non-Islamic nations) simply find offensive to our sensibilities. Murder, theft, etc. are things we can all agree are wrong. At the end of the day, we need to have some functional concept of evil in order to have a working society. If you wish to use a word other than evil, that's fine. Just be careful not to delve into moral relativism though. I honestly know people who say that good and evil are relative concepts, and who actually conclude that it's OK for Muslims to stone adulterers, put women in burqas, chop off hands for theft, and so forth. One need not believe in Jesus to know that our system of morality and ethics isn't just different, it's objectively better.

The means of defining objective good and evil needn't be based on God. And it certainly needn't be based on Jesus (Jesus is probably best left out of morality, actually). It can be based on utility. We've entertained certain concepts of morality for a long time, and they've served us well in most of the world, so we can call those concepts objectively good. What I'm saying is that even if you use a word other than evil, you'll end up retaining the idea of objective morality, because no one likes being mistreated.

Personally I don't believe there is good or evil, they are just labels we use to define our personal beliefs about the world and to segregate people from each other.

I still believe in good and evil as objective concepts, just like I believe there exists love, hate, happiness, sadness,etc. I don't know exactly where they come from. I just know they do not come from a god who says he is a god of love and justice, then sends people to burn in hell for being the wrong religion. That god would be worse in his actions than Hitler who sent people to be gassed because they are Jewish. What would make that god even worse is that he allowed Hitler to do those actions in the first place. If god had some great reason to do these things, for instance they would prevent an even greater harm, that may be justifiable. No theologian, however, has been able to give any good explanation for this and it kind of saddens me.

 

My closest guess to what "good" and "evil" objectively are is your conscience and sense of empathy. You don't hurt people because you feel compassion for them and know that if you were them, you would not want to be hurt too. Conscience and empathy are just being able to visualize yourself as someone else.

[Bhim]

Personally I don't believe there is good or evil, they are just labels we use to define our personal beliefs about the world and to segregate people from each other.

 

Well, I suppose we'll just have to respectfully disagree with one another on this one.  I personally couldn't subscribe to a philosophy that precludes objective morality.  For example, I believe that Jesus is objectively evil for teaching that people go to an eternal hell for failure to believe in him.  But hey, if you end up acting in a way that most people consider "moral" without believing in the principle of morality, I can absolutely respect your right to not intellectually assent to that principle.

 

My closest guess to what "good" and "evil" objectively are is your conscience and sense of empathy. You don't hurt people because you feel compassion for them and know that if you were them, you would not want to be hurt too. Conscience and empathy are just being able to visualize yourself as someone else.

 

While conscience differs from person to person, I too have found human conscience to be an excellent means of approximately deducing objective good from objective evil.