Jewel Wasp Challenge To Christians

[trueagnostic]

This is a challenge to a Christian person. The question I pose in my opinion challenges if not invalidates both the creation story and the concept of the Fall, and subsequently whole NT concept of salvation.

 

The question is how did parasites come into existance?

Parasitic behavior is complex. Consider

parasite. Please watch the video, it's short and interesting. So how did an organism like jewel wasp with its mind blowing complex parasitic behavior appear?

The Bible tells it was due to the Fall. But the Fall would destroy complexity, not create. This cannot be because of microevolution, (that creationism accepts) either. The parasitic mechanisms and behaviours of jewel wasp are orders of magnitude greater than that for which microevolution allows. If the answer is God, then why did he create such destructive and 'evil' thing, and if you say it was God's work, than it's not the Fall that produced evil.

 If you are a christian I'd like to hear your input especially, and if you are not, can you put a Christian's hat on and try to tackle the problem?

 

[boftx]

The question is how did parasites come into existance?

 

[... Deletia ... ]

 

The Bible tells it was due to the Fall. [ ... Deletia ... ]

 

 

I have to ask, how do you justify that statement?

[mymistake]

Brace yourselves . . .

 

 

"God did it" is coming 

[raoul]

 

 If you are a christian I'd like to hear your input especially, and if you are not, can you put a Christian's hat on and try to tackle the problem?

Why would an EX christian wanna play that kind of game?

[greylight]

I know when I used to be a Xian I would chalk the cruelty of nature up to, "oh, it's because creation has fallen, due to sin".

[boftx]

Again, how do you justify saying that "natural evil" is the result of sin (i.e. the "Fall")?

 

I am not defending the Biblical position here, I'm trying to ensure that any "attack" as such is on solid ground. Keep in mind that Genesis states that the Tree of Life was also in the Garden of Eden. "God's" remark about Adam eating of that tree and becoming like "them" implies that Adam (and by extension all other creatures) were mortal and subject to death already without regard to "sin" or "the Fall."

 

I simply do not see where one can assert that "natural evil" is the result of sin or the Fall. It is a straw man argument and should be avoided.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Christian hat on:  consequence of the Fall, just like weeds etc that give Man a tussle to eke a living outta the ground, and just like the labor pains that assail Woman.

 

It's turtles all the way down.

[boftx]

Christian hat on:  consequence of the Fall, just like weeds etc that give Man a tussle to eke a living outta the ground, and just like the labor pains that assail Woman.

 

It's turtles all the way down.

 

ficino, I am really surprised you said that, even with a "Christian" hat on. It is one thing to say that Man's struggles (and Woman's) are a result of the Fall, but what is the justification for saying that ALL of Nature's travails are a result of that? Even if one were to grant that parasites that afflict Man might be a result of that, it doesn't make sense to extend that to all of Nature.

 

PS - Mother Gaea is a bitch and She's on the rag.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

Christian hat on:  consequence of the Fall, just like weeds etc that give Man a tussle to eke a living outta the ground, and just like the labor pains that assail Woman.

 

It's turtles all the way down.

 

ficino, I am really surprised you said that, even with a "Christian" hat on. It is one thing to say that Man's struggles (and Woman's) are a result of the Fall, but what is the justification for saying that ALL of Nature's travails are a result of that? Even if one were to grant that parasites that afflict Man might be a result of that, it doesn't make sense to extend that to all of Nature.

 

PS - Mother Gaea is a bitch and She's on the rag.

 

 

Anti-Christian believer hat on: It does make sense to assume that parasites afflicting animals other than human was caused by the fall of man because God has always been in the habit of punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

 

It didn't make sense to say that I had my Christian hat on because what I said made me sound like a total heretic and would cause a lot of actual Christians to fear for my soul, even if I did still believe in the Christian god.

[trueagnostic]

I know when I used to be a Xian I would chalk the cruelty of nature up to, "oh, it's because creation has fallen, due to sin".

The catch here is that due to sin only degradation can occur, that is less complexity not more. With this question I'm creating a contradiction that should force a christian to question the story. If God did it, then it was not due to sin, but rather God. And further the design of such parasite as jewel wasp speaks of cruel designer if you play that card. I wonder if anyone sees the absurdity of the claim that parasites appeared after the Fall due to corruption. An ideal christian answer should preserve benevolence of God, take god out of the picture and explain how the Fall produced more complexity.

 

[trueagnostic]

 

The question is how did parasites come into existance?

 

[... Deletia ... ]

 

The Bible tells it was due to the Fall. [ ... Deletia ... ]

 

 

I have to ask, how do you justify that statement?

 

   Traditionally theologians inferred that it was due to Fall from these verses.

 Romans 21: 18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

And that death came into the world through first Adam.

[boftx]

The fact that it comes from Paul only underscores the point that it is full of crap.

 

Joking aside, I again make reference to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. What need would there be for it if "death" was not already present? (And that puts yet another wrinkle on "God" telling Adam he would surely die if he ate of the Tree of Knowledge.)

 

I need to check some sources for that doctrine, it sounds a lot like something the the fundies teach but not the mainstream.

[trueagnostic]

The fact that it comes from Paul only underscores the point that it is full of crap.

 

Joking aside, I again make reference to the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. What need would there be for it if "death" was not already present? (And that puts yet another wrinkle on "God" telling Adam he would surely die if he ate of the Tree of Knowledge.)

 

I need to check some sources for that doctrine, it sounds a lot like something the the fundies teach but not the mainstream.

That's interesting point, I never caught the contradiction there. But maybe you can explain that in a way that Tree of Life ould give an absolute immunity to death. That is originally man was immune to death on condition he doesn't sin. Following that logic if Adam partook from Tree of Life before Tree of Knowledge or after, he'd be both sinful and immortal. That's why angel was sent to guard the tree with a sword. I don't know if this argument is bulltproof, now I sound like a fundie theologian.

[trueagnostic]

 

 

 If you are a christian I'd like to hear your input especially, and if you are not, can you put a Christian's hat on and try to tackle the problem?

Why would an EX christian wanna play that kind of game?

To test and probe a good argument against Xnity. If it falls it falls if it stands it stands. That is my thinking. The argument is special because it's one of the few that Christians will take seriously as it's based on their own dogmas, that if looked critically contradict each other.

[trueagnostic]

I know when I used to be a Xian I would chalk the cruelty of nature up to, "oh, it's because creation has fallen, due to sin".

Right, this is what my family told me first, nature corrupted itself. Then I made them watch the video and pointed out the complexity and the 'evilness' in jewel wasp. Xtians love to attribute complexity to God. But on some thinking they had to admit, corruption could not bring up jewel wasp and had hard time justifying evil design to God. So they reluctantly had to say it was probably satan.. I asked several others and noone can give compelling answer even they like.

[Fernweh]

 

I know when I used to be a Xian I would chalk the cruelty of nature up to, "oh, it's because creation has fallen, due to sin".

Right, this is what my family told me first, nature corrupted itself. Then I made them watch the video and pointed out the complexity and the 'evilness' in jewel wasp. Xtians love to attribute complexity to God. But on some thinking they had to admit, corruption could not bring up jewel wasp and had hard time justifying evil design to God. So they reluctantly had to say it was probably satan.. I asked several others and noone can give compelling answer even they like.

 

 

In the fundie circles I came from, malevolent acts from god are accepted as a consequence of the fall. They really have no need to back that belief up with anything other than the belief itself. The complexity and contradictions you point out with the jewel wasp would only serve as a reaffirmation of their faith. It's the "god works in mysterious ways" card they can play at any time. It's the same line of thinking that allows them to love a god that was so brutal in the OT. In their minds mankind deserved it.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

 

I know when I used to be a Xian I would chalk the cruelty of nature up to, "oh, it's because creation has fallen, due to sin".

Right, this is what my family told me first, nature corrupted itself. Then I made them watch the video and pointed out the complexity and the 'evilness' in jewel wasp. Xtians love to attribute complexity to God. But on some thinking they had to admit, corruption could not bring up jewel wasp and had hard time justifying evil design to God. So they reluctantly had to say it was probably satan.. I asked several others and noone can give compelling answer even they like.

 

 

In the fundie circles I came from, malevolent acts from god are accepted as a consequence of the fall. They really have no need to back that belief up with anything other than the belief itself. The complexity and contradictions you point out with the jewel wasp would only serve as a reaffirmation of their faith. It's the "god works in mysterious ways" card they can play at any time. It's the same line of thinking that allows them to love a god that was so brutal in the OT. In their minds mankind deserved it.

 

 

They believe that mankind deserved the brutal acts of their god in the OT, including the children and the babies I assume. It makes me sick that anyone would try to justify the actions of a baby-killing monster just so they can keep loving it out of fear of what will happen if the don't keep loving that god.

[trueagnostic]

 

 

I know when I used to be a Xian I would chalk the cruelty of nature up to, "oh, it's because creation has fallen, due to sin".

Right, this is what my family told me first, nature corrupted itself. Then I made them watch the video and pointed out the complexity and the 'evilness' in jewel wasp. Xtians love to attribute complexity to God. But on some thinking they had to admit, corruption could not bring up jewel wasp and had hard time justifying evil design to God. So they reluctantly had to say it was probably satan.. I asked several others and noone can give compelling answer even they like.

 

 

In the fundie circles I came from, malevolent acts from god are accepted as a consequence of the fall. They really have no need to back that belief up with anything other than the belief itself. The complexity and contradictions you point out with the jewel wasp would only serve as a reaffirmation of their faith. It's the "god works in mysterious ways" card they can play at any time. It's the same line of thinking that allows them to love a god that was so brutal in the OT. In their minds mankind deserved it.

 

I would press them harder in this way. Are you (fundie friend) saying that god designed jewel wasp parasite so it can zombify a cockroach and so it's larva would eat the cockroach alive? Was this what God did to punish mankind for their sin? If they say yes, then ask them doesn't god have twisted mind to design such monster to torture another insect. If they still hold to the belief that it was God who did it (even though it reveals god as essentially monster) then ask one more question. If god changed jewel wasp then why do you say that nature got corrupted because of sin? It's either sin or God that corrupted nature, which is it? If they are still listening and being honest they should start seeing the contradiction.

Who corrupted nature is important I believe because it relates to corrupted nature of men. So many fundies live their lives fighting internal fleshly desires, sexual and others, believing that it was original sin that corrupted them. If you make such fundie see that it was not original sin that corrupted jewel wasp, but rather God himself, then you set up ground to make them see that their own "corrupted nature" might have been the work of God too.

No question, this requires intellectually inclined fundie to see the point..

 

[Fernweh]

 

 

 

I know when I used to be a Xian I would chalk the cruelty of nature up to, "oh, it's because creation has fallen, due to sin".

Right, this is what my family told me first, nature corrupted itself. Then I made them watch the video and pointed out the complexity and the 'evilness' in jewel wasp. Xtians love to attribute complexity to God. But on some thinking they had to admit, corruption could not bring up jewel wasp and had hard time justifying evil design to God. So they reluctantly had to say it was probably satan.. I asked several others and noone can give compelling answer even they like.

 

 

In the fundie circles I came from, malevolent acts from god are accepted as a consequence of the fall. They really have no need to back that belief up with anything other than the belief itself. The complexity and contradictions you point out with the jewel wasp would only serve as a reaffirmation of their faith. It's the "god works in mysterious ways" card they can play at any time. It's the same line of thinking that allows them to love a god that was so brutal in the OT. In their minds mankind deserved it.

 

I would press them harder in this way. Are you (fundie friend) saying that god designed jewel wasp parasite so it can zombify a cockroach and so it's larva would eat the cockroach alive? Was this what God did to punish mankind for their sin? If they say yes, then ask them doesn't god have twisted mind to design such monster to torture another insect. If they still hold to the belief that it was God who did it (even though it reveals god as essentially monster) then ask one more question. If god changed jewel wasp then why do you say that nature got corrupted because of sin? It's either sin or God that corrupted nature, which is it? If they are still listening and being honest they should start seeing the contradiction.

Who corrupted nature is important I believe because it relates to corrupted nature of men. So many fundies live their lives fighting internal fleshly desires, sexual and others, believing that it was original sin that corrupted them. If you make such fundie see that it was not original sin that corrupted jewel wasp, but rather God himself, then you set up ground to make them see that their own "corrupted nature" might have been the work of God too.

No question, this requires intellectually inclined fundie to see the point..

 

 

 

 

I'm afraid the hypothetical fundie will have stopped listening and declared they would "pray for me" long before taking this to it's logical conclusion.

[Overcame Faith]

That video is so friggin nightmarish!!!  I was going to present a Christian argument, but after seeing that, I'm not even going to try to defend or present any Christian argument, unless it would be that that wasp is a demon from hell.

[trueagnostic]

That video is so friggin nightmarish!!!  I was going to present a Christian argument, but after seeing that, I'm not even going to try to defend or present any Christian argument, unless it would be that that wasp is a demon from hell.

Haha, that made me lol. This is why the last christian i presented this argument to told me that satan himself made jewel wasp a parasite. Most christians have hard time swallawing an idea that satan was involved in creating complex creatures

[raoul]

I'm with OF - the video was a nightmare to watch. However, on the more scientific side, it was yet another example of Darwinian Evolutionary theory proving itself once more, thus eliminating another nitch in the armor of a 'fine tuning creator making a perfect world'. If the wasp is an example of fine tuning, I'll take complete chaos any day of the week!

[Guest r3alchild]

Also think about flies, when did god create them, before or after the fall? If god created them before the fall didn't god know that flies depend on death a decay to lay their larvae. This opens up a whole can of shit on god. You can then start asking questions like, if god created flies before there was any death and decay, then he already pre prepared all of nature for the fall and was just waiting for adam and eve to fulfill his twisted plan.

[midniterider]

This is a challenge to a Christian person. The question I pose in my opinion challenges if not invalidates both the creation story and the concept of the Fall, and subsequently whole NT concept of salvation.

 

The question is how did parasites come into existance?

Parasitic behavior is complex. Consider

parasite. Please watch the video, it's short and interesting. So how did an organism like jewel wasp with its mind blowing complex parasitic behavior appear?

The Bible tells it was due to the Fall. But the Fall would destroy complexity, not create. This cannot be because of microevolution, (that creationism accepts) either. The parasitic mechanisms and behaviours of jewel wasp are orders of magnitude greater than that for which microevolution allows. If the answer is God, then why did he create such destructive and 'evil' thing, and if you say it was God's work, than it's not the Fall that produced evil.

 If you are a christian I'd like to hear your input especially, and if you are not, can you put a Christian's hat on and try to tackle the problem?

 

God creates horrible critters because he loves you. We shouldn't question him but praise his name! Praise Jebus for the terrifying shit he creates!

[boftx]

Hmmm, this hat looks like it might have been Christian at one time, let's see how it fits.

 

Only Man has a soul, so only Man can perceive Good and Evil. Man can only do that because of Eve's disobedience. Before then, we would have seen all of Nature as part of a wondrous plan by "God", with all the parts, even parasites, working together in harmony. But because of Eve, we became aware of not only personal evil, but of Natural Evil as well. It was our loss of innocence that makes us see some parts of "God's" creation as evil when in fact all parts are good in the ultimate design. We simply are not capable of understanding that design in our sinful state.

 

Evil, other than disobedience to "God", is an illusion created by our own sinful nature that blinds us to the full measure of "God's" goodness. It is only by "God's" grace that we can hope to rid ourselves of that nature through Jesus' act of redemption. Faith in Jesus allows us to pierce the veil created by our sinful nature and once again see the full glory that is displayed in "God's" creation and his plan of salvation for us.

 

Now excuse me while I go puke.