You're Not Good Enough.

[ExXex]

I dunno how many times I've heard that from churches, they hammer it into you until you accept it.

I'm a cripplingly shy person, I never feel good enough, I don't expect people to like me and kinda go around apologising for my very existence. The reason mystified me these past few years, most normal people aren't like that right?

Well, today I got a book from the bible study group I recently stopped going to called 'The Hole in our Holiness'. I haven't read past the blurb because I still feel kinda.. like I'm fuckin' sick of people talking to me about religion. Anyway, it's focused on holiness, being more like Jesus, because not enough Christians are like Jesus or holy enough and clearly they need a book to shovel people into it while being all chummy and 'it's okay I'm one of the sinners too so this is a nice friendly book teaching you to strive for a standard you can never attain'.

And I just thought, I've been taught that message since birth - I need to be something I'll never be able to be, I should follow the bible because I can't be trusted to do my own thing, I'm nothing without Jesus.

That's not helpful is it? What good's that going to do? Why does Christianity want a bunch of people with their belief in themselves knocked out of them? Being humble and serving others is a lovely thing to do - but why does that need to be done with the belief you're only doing it because it's what you deserve?

I feel like this damage done to me by religion was created with the original purpose of keeping me in line. To put a melodramatic slant on it - I feel like the church has castrated me.

I hope I can grow from this point and believe in myself  and that I don't need to be constantly berating myself for not being perfect but I honestly don't know if I ever will - I'm an adult now and my brain has developed stewing in those thoughts. I don't really know what to do about it D: But I am angry about it so maybe there's a start!

I was wondering... anyone here come out of religion feeling the same? Have you regained something of yourself do you think?

 

I was gonna say sorry if this topic has recently come up already but... well.

 

[Overcame Faith]

I heard the "you're not good enough" speel more times than I care to remember.  As it went, you're nothing more than a sinner at the core deserving of eternal torment in hell.  But Jesus saved us from that and through him, despite the worms we are, we can still go to heaven and be with God.  That is a sick message and made even the sicker because who was supposed to be our role model?  Jesus, of course, the perfect person (and God ??).  So we were to live our lives in Holiness as examplified by Jesus.  The problem is that living like Jesus, the supposedly perfect one, is an impossible goal so, no matter how hard we try, we can never achieve our goal.  What's more, realizing how far we come from this "Christ-like perfection" only emphasizes our "inadequacies".  It's a vicious cycle and a cruel one, too.

 

I think many of us come out of the religion feeling all kinds of emotions and I do not think your experience since leaving Christianity is anything you should worry about.  I know you are going through problems as you expressed, but you can work your way through them.  You are good enough and all the better just being your true self.

[ExXex]

It does seem and incredibly cruel cycle, and so much of it is dressed up as being caring and 'helping people become better'. In one sentence the message can switch from 'As fellow christians we love you!' to 'now think of all the sinful things you've done today'.

 

Thankyou! I guess frequenting this place that's filled with people who have come to realise the opposite and are recovering from Christianity too is a good start in itself!

[Margee]

I don't want to become like jesus today. Why do I want to become like a man who had to sacrifice himself for his father, a 'father' that fucked up his own world. The 'father' that was supposed to be all powerful, all knowing, all loving? He had to resort to 'torture' to make things right? Poor jesus......he was shy also hon or he would have told his 'father' to go fuck himself. Just a few lessons in becoming a little more assertive would help us all.

 

I believe shy people are beautiful people. We need you shyer ones to help balance out the big mouths of the world like me. We all have something to contribute.. no matter what our personalities are. When you finally accept that you are a fully alive human..with character defects that you can choose to 'fix' yourself, you will be shouting from the rooftops my love! Stay on the journey with us here hon....

 

Big hug for you today.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Christianity is such a depressing religion. It was thinking like this, that I was never good enough and that I deserved to go to Hell, mixed in with the psychological problems I struggle with, which were made worse by Christianity, that had me depressed and hating myself just before my deconversion happened. I even prayed once for the Christian god to just give up on me and send me to Hell because it is where I belonged and I even believed it. All of that changed the moment I discovered that the Christian got might be worse than I was, morally especially, and that is when the doubts hit me.

 

My doubts were basically like this: "What if God is a liar? What if he is worse than Satan? What if Jesus' life, death, and resurrection was nothing but a ploy to deceive humans into thinking he was a merciful god just to suck them in? What if God is evil?" Doubting his existence never crossed my mind until after my deconversion was almost over. Realizing that I was not even half the monster that the Christian god was is the thing that freed me from this religion once the battle to fight those doubts was over.

 

I have many times seen the Christian god compared to an abusive spouse or parent and how they usually tell their victims they are never good enough for them and how only they will ever love them because of how terrible they are. I would also like to add that the Christian god is extremely abusive physically, in the Bible mostly, and the believers believe in a physically abusive god who will allow the most horrendous things happen to them, if it was part of his plan, but they think it is a good thing because he is testing their faith and because their religion and Bible places their monstrous god up on a pedestal as a being that can never do wrong or evil. That is a load of crap. A being that can't ever do wrong or evil would never torture his own creations just to test their faith. A being that can't be anything but perfect would never behave like a hypocrite by committing acts that would be sin if done by a human. A perfect being would never create living things that are programmed with a sinful nature, only to tell them how worthless they are when they can't resist sin and end up doing it, and then save them from this sinful nature later on by killing a human puppet.

[RankStranger]

Yeah, 'holiness' is a mind-fuck. I was raised that way, and figured out at a pretty young age that it was an impossible standard... and one with dire social and mental consequences even if it WAS possible. But even though I know that the whole concept is bullshit, I still can't really leave it behind entirely. When from the moment you became self-aware you were made to believe that you are different and separate (not to be part of 'the world'), bound by obligations and threats of punishment that others are not subject to, and NEVER good enough despite any effort you could possibly make... that's bound to have an effect on how you view yourself, your world, and your place in it.

 

I've left Jesus behind, but I doubt that baggage will ever go away entirely. Deep down I still don't consider myself a part of 'the world' as the church-ladies called it (aka mainstream society). I just have this semi-concious idea that I don't approve of them, they don't approve of me, and I will never really be one of them. These days I express that by being a tiresome cynic. As an adult I'm probably as egotistical as anybody you'll come across... likely compensating for that kid who will never belong or be good enough.

[florduh]

Like anyone with a product to sell, they must create a perceived need for that product. If they can convince someone that they are somehow "broken" then it follows that they need to be "fixed" - in this case, by Christianity. Of course in order to keep you coming back, you are never completely or permanently "fixed."

[Guest r3alchild]

I wana be shy too!

[ExXex]

I believe shy people are beautiful people. We need you shyer ones to help balance out the big mouths of the world like me.

Hee thanks! I don't think I'll ever stop being shy, but hopefully I'll stop being shy and insecure about it!

 

 

From the moment you became self-aware you were made to believe that you are different and separate (not to be part of 'the world'),

Ah yes, that lovely teaching, I used to use that to excuse myself for being so introverted 'it's okay I don't feel part of the world because I wasn't made to be part of it!'

which didn't really explain why I didn't feel particularly part of the church either. Christian logic!

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

Like anyone with a product to sell, they must create a perceived need for that product. If they can convince someone that they are somehow "broken" then it follows that they need to be "fixed" - in this case, by Christianity. Of course in order to keep you coming back, you are never completely or permanently "fixed."

 

It's just too bad that the product the Christians sell is just about as broken as they think we are. Congratulations at becoming a Super Moderator by the way. It must have been a quite recent promotion.

[florduh]

Congratulations at becoming a Super Moderator by the way. It must have been a quite recent promotion.

 

 

 

Thanks, crazy. I guess it just goes to show how hard it is to get good help these days. 

[LifeCycle]

Spot on!  This has been one of my struggles and frustrations as well... We were never good enough on our own.  We could accomplish nothing on our own.  Humanity was fallen and incomplete and only God could make us whole.  Now that you know it's a bunch of shit you can be angry about it.  Part of your identity has been based on manipulation and outright lies.  That's how I look at it anyway. It's how I feel about my adventure through this life.  Much of what I based my identity in, was bullshit.  It's time to re-invent yourself.  Start with looking at all the great things humanity has accomplished.  Flight, electricity, music, even the fucking wheel is our own accomplishment.  Where's God in all that?  We are great, you are great and everything good that has happened to you in your life is due to some human somewhere contributing to that.  Not God.

 

This god of ours thought we couldn't accomplish anything on our own.  It's a lie, because he doesn't exist.  Welcome to your new reality... The truer, friendlier, more peaceful one. 

[midniterider]

I dunno how many times I've heard that from churches, they hammer it into you until you accept it.

I'm a cripplingly shy person, I never feel good enough, I don't expect people to like me and kinda go around apologising for my very existence. The reason mystified me these past few years, most normal people aren't like that right?

Well, today I got a book from the bible study group I recently stopped going to called 'The Hole in our Holiness'. I haven't read past the blurb because I still feel kinda.. like I'm fuckin' sick of people talking to me about religion. Anyway, it's focused on holiness, being more like Jesus, because not enough Christians are like Jesus or holy enough and clearly they need a book to shovel people into it while being all chummy and 'it's okay I'm one of the sinners too so this is a nice friendly book teaching you to strive for a standard you can never attain'.

And I just thought, I've been taught that message since birth - I need to be something I'll never be able to be, I should follow the bible because I can't be trusted to do my own thing, I'm nothing without Jesus.

That's not helpful is it? What good's that going to do? Why does Christianity want a bunch of people with their belief in themselves knocked out of them? Being humble and serving others is a lovely thing to do - but why does that need to be done with the belief you're only doing it because it's what you deserve?

I feel like this damage done to me by religion was created with the original purpose of keeping me in line. To put a melodramatic slant on it - I feel like the church has castrated me.

I hope I can grow from this point and believe in myself  and that I don't need to be constantly berating myself for not being perfect but I honestly don't know if I ever will - I'm an adult now and my brain has developed stewing in those thoughts. I don't really know what to do about it D: But I am angry about it so maybe there's a start!

I was wondering... anyone here come out of religion feeling the same? Have you regained something of yourself do you think?

 

I was gonna say sorry if this topic has recently come up already but... well.

 

Christianity produces self loathing. If you already have that tendency then Christianity will make it worse. And you're right, church doctrine is designed to stop you from thinking for yourself and keep the cash flowing into the church. It looks like you have a good start in taking charge of your life.

 

A major layer of self-loathing lifted when I dumped Christianity but I still have some layers to go. We have enough troubles in life. We dont need the added stress of worrying that our thoughts might not please some God who never really speaks to us, listens to us or gets involved with us , probably because he doesnt really exist.

[midniterider]

Wouldnt it be fun to go to the bible study, thank whoever gave you that book and say, "After reading the book I prayed to Jesus and he filled me with holiness. I will therefore no longer need to go to this bible study. Bye now!"

 

:-)

[Guest r3alchild]

[ExXex]

Haha! I kinda like the idea of claiming to have become 100% holified after reading the book and daring them to disagree!

I'm sure they meant to give me it as a nice gesture though so instead I will say nothing at all about it since I have nothing nice to say

 

This god of ours thought we couldn't accomplish anything on our own.  It's a lie, because he doesn't exist.  Welcome to your new reality... The truer, friendlier, more peaceful one. 

Why thankyou. I like this new reality, it has guilt-free pre-marital fornication and everything!

[Deva]

I find a contradiction (one among many) in Christianity that on the one hand you are supposed to be made in the image of God and on the other you are a poor, miserable sinner with no hope without Christ.  So, what does that say about the image of God? I mean  I know all the torturous reasoning about the so-called curse of sin and all that jazz, but does it still hold, made in the image of God? If so, in what way? It cannot mean the physical body, so what is it?

[ExXex]

You're so right! In my final weeks as a Christian I was reading terrible stuff in the news like about those people who raped that poor women in India on a bus and my thinking was 'how can something 100% good make something so bad?' If you're good you only make good things right? You don't make rapists and murderers!

From then it was a pretty easy decision that if there was a god he was as good as his most flawed creation, and I didn't wanna worship that.

[Llwellyn]

I have suffered in my life quite a bit because of the Christian doctrine that humans are "not ok."  I grew up in the Reformed Calvinist tradition, and we were told that we were "simul justus et peccator" -- which is Latin for "at the same time justified and sinner."  This thinking creates a lot of cognitive dissonance where people can be self-loathing and prideful at the same time.  Self-satisfied and self-hating at the same time.  Christianity has no problem dehumanizing people by referring to them with negative labels:  "sinner," "reprobate," "adulterer," "murderer," etc.  Christians included.

 

We were never good enough as we were -- we were always wrong, and we were always looking to the future to be "ok" and to be satisfactory.  Bible verses spoken even to Christians are in the future tense, as if we are still pieces of shit, and it is only in some hypothetical future that we will be anything different:  "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."  Ezekiel 36:26 (New International Version)

 

 

 

This twisted thinking resulted in a lot of anxiety, angst, depression morbid introspection, etc.  It was only by deconverting that I could untwist the thinking.  There is no external idea of goodness that stands outside of humans.  There is no law that we ourselves did not create.  I was sick because, rather than telling myself "I'm OK," I waited for someone else to tell me that.

 

http://www.ligonier.org/blog/simul-justus-et-peccator/

 

 

According to Christianity, humans are voids without the thought of Jesus occupying their minds.  Please continue reading only if the following is not a trigger for you:

 

 

 

 

Romans 3:10-18 (New International Version)

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."  "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."  "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

 

Romans 7:14-18 (New International Version)

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.  I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.

 

Romans 8:5-8 (New International Version)

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.  The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

Romans 8:5-8 (KJV)

They that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.  To be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.  The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.  They that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

Romans 8:8 (NIV)

Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

 

Ephesians 2:1-3 (New International Version)

You were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

 

Ephesians 2:11-13

You who are Gentiles by birth were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

 

John 5:24-25 (New International Version)

Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

 

Ezekiel 36:26 (New International Version)

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

 

Matthew 7:11 (NIV)

If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

 

Psalm 14:1-3, Psalm 53:1-3 (New International Version)

There is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

 

Jeremiah 30:12-13 (New International Version)

"This is what the LORD says: " 'Your wound is incurable, your injury beyond healing. There is no one to plead your cause, no remedy for your sore, no healing for you.

                                                                                  

Jeremiah 17:9 (New International Version)

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

 

Psalm 58:3 (King James Version)

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

Matthew 19:17 (King James Version)

He said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

Genesis 6:5-13 (New International Version)

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence.  God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

                                                                                              

Job 25:4-6 (New International Version)

How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure? If even the moon is not bright and the stars are not pure in his eyes, how much less man, who is but a maggot— a son of man, who is only a worm!"

 

Job 15:14-16 (New International Version)

"What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous? If God places no trust in his holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes, how much less man, who is vile and corrupt, who drinks up evil like water!

 

Psalm 143:2 (New International Version)

Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.

 

Isaiah 24:5-6 (New International Version)

The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant.  Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up.

 

Psalm 51:5 (New International Version)

I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

Ecclesiastes 8:11 (King James Version)

The heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

 

Psalm 5:9 (New International Version)

Not a word from their mouth can be trusted; their heart is filled with destruction. Their throat is an open grave; with their tongue they speak deceit.

 

Psalm 94:11 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

The LORD knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile.

 

Mark 7:21-23 (New International Version)

For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

 

Ecclesiastes 9:3 (New International Version)

This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.

 

Isaiah 1:4-6 (New International Version)

Ah, sinful nation, a people loaded with guilt, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him. Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion? Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted. From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness— only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.

 

Isaiah 64:6 (New International Version)

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

 

Titus 1:15 (New International Version)

To those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

 

Proverbs 21:4 (King James Version)

The plowing of the wicked, is sin.

 

(Gal. 5:16-21, KJV).

Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like.

[ExXex]

It's horrible because they're such familiar words, and I believed them. And it's so... why would you teach your children that?

I think I want to print off that list and stick it to my wall to remind me how toxic Christianity can be.

[Llwellyn]

Robert Ingersoll in his Speech "HERETICS AND HERESIES" put it eloquently:

 

"What a precious doctrine is that of the total depravity of the human heart! How sweet it is to believe that the lives of all the good and great were continual sins and perpetual crimes; that the love a mother bears her child is, in the sight of God, a sin; that the gratitude of the natural heart is simple meanness; that the tears of pity are impure; that for the unconverted to live and labor for others is an offence to heaven; that the noblest aspirations of the soul are low and groveling in the sight of God; that man should fall upon his knees and ask forgiveness, simply for loving his wife and child, and that even the act of asking forgiveness is in fact a crime!  Surely it is a kind of bliss to feel that every woman and child in the wide world, with the exception of those who believe the five points, or some other equally cruel creed, and such children as have been baptized, ought at this very moment to be dashed down to the lowest glowing gulf of hell."

 

No doubt Ingersoll had in mind verses similar to the following:

 

Romans 14:23

New International Version

Everything that does not come from faith is sin.

 

Proverbs 21:4   

The plowing of the wicked, is sin.

 

Proverbs 28:9 

New International Version

If anyone turns a deaf ear to my instruction, even their prayers are detestable.

 

Proverbs 15:8  

New International Version

The LORD detests the sacrifice of the wicked.

 

These doctrines are still present in modern Christianity, and will be, so long as the words are still present in the Bible:

 

http://www.lakewaybaptistchurch.org/resources/morning-manna/705-the-sin-of-plowing.html

[seeker001]

 

'snip

 

Oh my stars, that is just sick. While I was aware that the doctrine said humanity sucks, but seeing it all laid out like that

 

Look, while humanity is not the center of the universe and I don't think we should be put on the pedestals, but we're not that bad. Yeah there are some people who are irredeemably corrupt, but it seems more than a bit harsh to label everyone as being irredeemably evil.  

 

On a side note, I haven't picked up a bible in a while, but what did humanity do that called for God to kill nearly every man, woman, and children in that flood? All it said was that the people were wicked. What made Noah so special? "Righteous" and "wicked" are very broad terms to use. But wait a minute, didn't the bible say that humanity was wicked? So was Noah just slightly less wicked than everyone else making him relatively righteous? 

[ContraBardus]

I always used to wonder 'I'm not good enough to what?' I was Catholic, and that's a whole lot of 'you're unworthy'. Being Catholic is easily the most depressing kind of Christianity. It's slow, methodical, and just plain boring. The music is horrible, the teachings are downtrodden, and it's just a generally disgusting dirty depressing feeling being Catholic.

 

That's not saying there aren't elements of that in other Christian faiths, but Catholics are the worst as far as being downers about the whole mess I think.

 

That always bothered me that I was 'unworthy' for some reason that no one could really explain to me aside from 'this dumb ignorant dude and his naked bitch ate some fruit from God's personal stash that he left lying around because a talking snake got the evil naked chick to trick the stupid guy into doing it with her'. That never made sense to me, and I never could figure out exactly what it was I was unworthy of in the first place. It was just a blanket term for this I think:

 

 

I never really bought into it and quickly learned it was best to just bow my head and shut up about it when it came up. There was no point in asking because I wasn't going to get an explanation any better than the image above.

[Llwellyn]

[ExXex]

Be a good boy or the ruff of dog will fall upon you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

That was probably the worst joke I've ever made