Storm Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I am currently in a state of flux regarding what I believe and will likely end up deconverting from Christianity. I am finding more and more things every day that are too much to overcome and just accept rather than understand the fallacy behind it or to just "take it on faith". I will totally admit that I am very humbled and bitter towards myself and what I chose to believe so blindly for so many years. But I must admit that I have one rant that I want to get off my chest and that is this: As I am seeking information and doing my best to find the truth, I am constantly bombarded by the same crap from non believers as I get from christians. I regularly see people making comments about how stupid christians are because they don't really know what the bible says and then I see them posting memes and making comments about scriptures that are taken completely out of context and have nowhere close to any meaning that the person is implying. I am a smart enough person to know that this speaks more to general human nature, and not the beliefs themselves, but it is still just funny and frustrating at the same time. I am fully aware that there are some legitimate contradictions in the bible and that is a serious issue, but some of the stuff that is passed off as contradictory is stupid and irrelevant. I understand that you have to sift through all the stuff to find the things that matter and I am ok with that. I just wanted to vent that I see just as much bs from non believers as I do from christians. Ok. Rant over. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 It's good to rant... welcome to Ex-C Try to remember though that a lot of the stuff you may hear from non-believers.. (exes anyway) is a way for them to purge themselves and express that bitterness that they were fooled for so long... I know for myself hat a lot of my vitriol towards religion is kind of a cleansing process, and a way to practice my newfound information, powers of reasoning and logic, and position. This is a safe place for me to do that. However.. as an historian it's in that area that I get very passionate.. for others it's other areas. You'll find all kinds here, at all stages of deconversion... anyway, again - welcome! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 It's good to rant... welcome to Ex-C Try to remember though that a lot of the stuff you may hear from non-believers.. (exes anyway) is a way for them to purge themselves and express that bitterness that they were fooled for so long... I know for myself hat a lot of my vitriol towards religion is kind of a cleansing process, and a way to practice my newfound information, powers of reasoning and logic, and position. This is a safe place for me to do that. However.. as an historian it's in that area that I get very passionate.. for others it's other areas. You'll find all kinds here, at all stages of deconversion... anyway, again - welcome!. Thanks Ravenstar. I appreciate the candor and honesty in this group and I am very much feeling supported and I am trying to be supportive, but it gets frustrating seeing all the stuff. Your words have helped me understand that you are correct and that I do need to understand that everyone is in a different place than I am. I understand the anger and frustration that deconversion is having in my life and I cant remember ever feeling as angry and bitter about something as I do now regarding christianity. But maybe I'm just thinking that the irony about lashing out against "stupid christians" with stupid and uninformed stuff is redundant and hypocritical. I guess that is why I felt the need to rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 There are "contradictions" that can be rather superficial and indeed dependent on context, and some skeptics rely too heavily on this approach. However, when it comes to taking things out of context, Christians win the prize for their twisting and shallow use of the Hebrew scriptures to validate their "savior" in particular. Christianity is revisionist theology, using only the parts of Hebrew scripture that serve their purpose while ignoring the rest. It's a subjective exercise where the end or agenda justifies the means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 That feeling you have of being bombarded will go once you deconvert more. Yeah I have noticed people taking scripture out of context, but soon enough you wont give a shit because you will realize that your whole faith was "taking things out of context." I have been deprograming in new areas lately and its been very hard, but reading your post gives me strength to keep going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 23, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted May 23, 2013 You are correct; some anti-Christians do take things out of context to make their point - not unlike the way Christian dogma is decided and the way apologetics works. I think some of it is from anger and frustration. Many people were seriously harmed by the religion they left. There are stages to deconversion, and anger is one of them. Eventually, most who have left the toxic religion don't give a shit about theology and religion until religion tries to worm its way into law or secular life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I'm currently exiting the anger phase of my deconversion. It's normal to be angry but after so much, you just have to let go. I like fucking cussing a lot right now because I was never that way. It's fucking liberating in a sense but at the same time it might appear kind of fucking childish and I'm aware of that, so I'm just getting it all out of my goddamn system right now. You don't have to take scripture out of context to know that God loves you so much he killed himself so he could save you from torment in a place he created (lake of fire!!!). You also don't have to take scripture out of context to know that God put the tree in the garden knowing full well the devastation and suffering it would bring to humanity since he knows everything and yet, he did it anyway. You don't have to take scripture out of context to know that God gives free will to those he knows are incapable of using it to make the right decision that determines their eternal destiny and yet, he gives it to them anyway, because he loves them so very much. And then there's the God is not the author of confusion bullshit and yet his book has how many versions and his church has how many denominations? That's not confusion? Huh? I mean, it's all just so contradictory without the "Oh my brother, you totally are taking that verse out of context." The fundamental ideals of Christian theology are really fucked up. Welcome to the truth. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalm 137) "Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof,” (Gen. 19:8). Just two examples from thousands. How does one take these "out of context"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 I'm currently exiting the anger phase of my deconversion. It's normal to be angry but after so much, you just have to let go. I like fucking cussing a lot right now because I was never that way. It's fucking liberating in a sense but at the same time it might appear kind of fucking childish and I'm aware of that, so I'm just getting it all out of my goddamn system right now. I totally understand the liberating feeling of cussing. I have to say that at this point, even though I have not officially Deconverted, I am finding freedom in the fact that I am not bound by guilt or shame for not following the "rules" and I have experienced more freedom now than I ever have as a Christian. I can cuss and I don't give a shit that I do and its so liberating. I would agree that it seems childish, but truthfully, we are kind of like children in some respects because we are learning to live all over again. "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalm 137) "Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof,” (Gen. 19:8). Just two examples from thousands. How does one take these "out of context"? I was not referring to any one thing in particular. I will be honest, and just like Ravenstar pointed out, many people are at different places in their lives and it appears that I am at the place where I am just frustrated about everything and just posting a rant about something that irritated me at that moment seemed like a therapeutic thing and whether its rational or not, I just felt the need to do so. I'm glad I did, because I feel better and apparently, my ranting helped r3alchild feel a bit better. If that's all this accomplishes, then so be it. If I make myself look like a fool. That's ok. I already feel like one anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 23, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted May 23, 2013 If I make myself look like a fool. That's ok. I already feel like one anyway. Don't you dare to feel like a fool. You have started on the road to reason and have nothing to regret or be ashamed of. Real life isn't like Christianity with its guilt and unworthiness of human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 If I make myself look like a fool. That's ok. I already feel like one anyway. Don't you dare to feel like a fool. You have started on the road to reason and have nothing to regret or be ashamed of. Real life isn't like Christianity with its guilt and unworthiness of human beings. This. There's so much that goes into what a person believes... Often times it's outside of their control. Indoctrination is atop that list and then there's the community and social support that goes into what a person may believe what they believe. One just can't look at the belief itself without all the others things it brings. There's just so many variables in the equation of belief that intellect and reason sometimes can't even influence the rest... It's only after time that the thinking, brave and courageous followers of the faith choose to address their concerns. You're one of those. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 If I make myself look like a fool. That's ok. I already feel like one anyway. Don't you dare to feel like a fool. You have started on the road to reason and have nothing to regret or be ashamed of. Real life isn't like Christianity with its guilt and unworthiness of human beings. Thanks florduh. I appreciate your candor. Its hard to not feel like a fool after having believed blindly for so long. BTW, I love that you have House as your pic. I love that show and I feel like when I read your stuff, its Hugh Laurie saying everything. Classic! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I'm currently exiting the anger phase of my deconversion. It's normal to be angry but after so much, you just have to let go. I like fucking cussing a lot right now because I was never that way. It's fucking liberating in a sense but at the same time it might appear kind of fucking childish and I'm aware of that, so I'm just getting it all out of my goddamn system right now. You don't have to take scripture out of context to know that God loves you so much he killed himself so he could save you from torment in a place he created (lake of fire!!!). You also don't have to take scripture out of context to know that God put the tree in the garden knowing full well the devastation and suffering it would bring to humanity since he knows everything and yet, he did it anyway. You don't have to take scripture out of context to know that God gives free will to those he knows are incapable of using it to make the right decision that determines their eternal destiny and yet, he gives it to them anyway, because he loves them so very much. And then there's the God is not the author of confusion bullshit and yet his book has how many versions and his church has how many denominations? That's not confusion? Huh? I mean, it's all just so contradictory without the "Oh my brother, you totally are taking that verse out of context." The fundamental ideals of Christian theology are really fucked up. Welcome to the truth. Quoted for truth ... and because I'm not able to vote this excellent post "up" 100 times! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2me Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 There are stupid Christians, and also stupid non-Christians. Both of these groups are skilled in making nonsensical arguments. I do understand your frustration, though. In those kind of discussions, I prefer to see someone explain why an argument is erroneous than attack the intelligence of the person with the erroneous ideas. Sometimes I enjoy watching the formal debates between prominent religious figures and atheists, because they at least seem to generally "play nice" with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExXex Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I know where you're coming from, as someone who's experienced both sides it doesn't really make it any less annoying, you can kinda end up with the message 'you believed because you didn't read enough' and then 'you don't believe because you didn't read enough' which kinda tries to invalidate my whole experience. I grew up reading the bible, I may not have read it from cover to cover in one sitting but I know my way around it and have probably accumulated knowledge of a large chunk of it over my years of studying it, I probably know its contents better than the Harry Potter books for instance. I didn't believe it or disbelieve it because I was stupid, it's more to do with faith, the bible and Christianity points to this as something more important than knowledge (there being a large emphasis on following Jesus 'like a child', plus the vilification of the legalistic Pharisees ) - faith is what separates the believers from the non-believers, not words. I think both sides often misunderstand this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Okay, so mea culpa: I confess. In addition to the anger phase of deconversion, there's also an option C: let's say you never believed, yet you consider it a moral obligation to respect everyone's worldview, even if it doesn't agree with yours. It's vitally important to the way people lead their lives, and agonizing to have it undone. Yet, your entire adult life is spent in the context of a "moral majority" declared "culture war" where you read in the media that some (very loud and obnoxious people) people think everything you stand for is evil, you can't stand up for what you believe without being called a baby-eating communist of some sort, and people gasp and back away looking horrified if you ever tell them you don't believe what they do. That automatically, in their minds, makes you evil, and destined to hell. And those are just the loud, irritating extremists, who go door to door, slip pamphlets in books you like to read telling you that you're worthless, yell at you on the bus or sidewalk, or have their own radio shows. A minority of Christians? Sure. But, that's when you think about it a bit, and you realize that the rest have to believe that you're going to Hell anyway, since you can't be convinced. Hell is where bad people go. And unbelievers. So, in their minds, unbelievers are bad people somehow. Just to make it work out in a way that their God isn't evil. That's when it kicks in that some 80% of your country and most of your extended family thinks that you're at least misguided, or probably evil. So, all this, and you don't feel it's right to spontaneously get on your own soapbox and explain things. You have very good evidence and reasoning, and you don't want to hurt anyone. Unless, of course, they get in your face about it... at which point it's fair game. I confess I have made people cry. But, in my defence, at that point, it's a no-holds-barred debate. Still, sometimes, when the ambient static of this social climate gets too loud... something might just *snap* ... I think that's where some of this frothing at the mouth idiocy and name calling comes from, from the non-believer side. Because when the same people who would spit in your face say that they're being prosecuted when you , it's hard to reason with people who don't value reason, and it's all too easy to fall back on blistering profane invective out of sheer frustration. I prefer to claim the high ground, play the long game, and stick to calm, logical debate. It's just more effective... still... everybody has bad days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 So, all this, and you don't feel it's right to spontaneously get on your own soapbox and explain things. You have very good evidence and reasoning, and you don't want to hurt anyone. Unless, of course, they get in your face about it... at which point it's fair game. I confess I have made people cry. But, in my defence, at that point, it's a no-holds-barred debate. Still, sometimes, when the ambient static of this social climate gets too loud... something might just *snap* ... I think that's where some of this frothing at the mouth idiocy and name calling comes from, from the non-believer side. Because when the same people who would spit in your face say that they're being prosecuted when you , it's hard to reason with people who don't value reason, and it's all too easy to fall back on blistering profane invective out of sheer frustration. I prefer to claim the high ground, play the long game, and stick to calm, logical debate. It's just more effective... still... everybody has bad days. Good point. Well said. I think I sometimes forget that we are all human and we're all prone to lose it at times, and of course we all know what happens then. Nothing good. I think several people have made good points and I feel better for posting this, even though it may have been something that wasn't overly important. Its one of the things I love about this group is that with all the different perspectives, it really makes things more enriched. Everyone has something to offer and I can learn from it all. I'm not skewed by one track Christianity. I can accept or discard whatever works best for me. There's really no right or wrong. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExXex Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Apart from paedophilia, that's always wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Some Atheist dont understand what believing means to christians. They dont understand that Christians think of their belief as part of their own identity. They dont have to convince Christians, they should show them facts and let them think for themselves. Before I deconverted I liked to read debates in christian forums. Both sides disgusted me. Christian repeating same stuff over and over again and atheists being arrogant and condescending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I was not referring to any one thing in particular. I will be honest, and just like Ravenstar pointed out, many people are at different places in their lives and it appears that I am at the place where I am just frustrated about everything and just posting a rant about something that irritated me at that moment seemed like a therapeutic thing and whether its rational or not, I just felt the need to do so. I'm glad I did, because I feel better and apparently, my ranting helped r3alchild feel a bit better. If that's all this accomplishes, then so be it. If I make myself look like a fool. That's ok. I already feel like one anyway. I'm at the point where I don't believe poop stinks until I step in it, but I came down the deconversion highway like most here. No foul intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 Par, Thanks for your input. I am open and willing to do what it takes to be the best I can be. I fall short at times. I didn't take anything you posted negatively. Its all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolaida Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Can definitely relate to your frustration. It's like your mind set completely shifts and it's hard to get a grasp on it and not feel angry, frustrated, and sad. But now you know you can do what you wanna do and not wait around for God to answer your prayers or try to map your life out constantly with that WWJD slogan. I always found it odd as a Christian that some Christians CAN actually do that without deconversion; they say God is most important and they probably believe it or think they do, but they still do what they wanna do and somehow fit it into that being what God wanted them to do. I never really understood why they went on believing. It is good, though, to feel that freedom of doing what you want, but most of us all regret some decisions we made while Christians. As pointed out, being a Christian is considered a big part of your identity. I don't think people who were never Christians (or true believers) can really relate in that sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 Can definitely relate to your frustration. It's like your mind set completely shifts and it's hard to get a grasp on it and not feel angry, frustrated, and sad. But now you know you can do what you wanna do and not wait around for God to answer your prayers or try to map your life out constantly with that WWJD slogan. I always found it odd as a Christian that some Christians CAN actually do that without deconversion; they say God is most important and they probably believe it or think they do, but they still do what they wanna do and somehow fit it into that being what God wanted them to do. I never really understood why they went on believing. It is good, though, to feel that freedom of doing what you want, but most of us all regret some decisions we made while Christians. As pointed out, being a Christian is considered a big part of your identity. I don't think people who were never Christians (or true believers) can really relate in that sense. I agree completely. I have to say that if god truly had the power to change lives, why don't we see more change? Most Christians I know, who I would consider "strong" Christians, really just live day by day doing their own thing and I don't see any change or genuine power in their lives. They believe they are living in god's will, but they are just winging it like the rest of us. I know its probably been said to death, but I really feel like I left the Matrix and here is the reality. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. The burden of knowledge is great and life changing. I don't think I've ever felt so free and so encumbered at the same time. Every part of my life was so wrapped up in Christianity. I just don't know what else there is. I've never done anything but be a Christian. I have no non believing friends. I don't know how to do anything without the Christian spin. And worst of all, I have no one to talk to about how I really feel because they are all Christian and they will all just try to get me to come back to their side and I don't think I really could. And that is frustrating because these have been great friendships and I just don't know how I can go on without them. It looks like I'm starting another rant...oh man. so many emotions. Its crazy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker001 Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 This is the "Rants and Replies" section of the forum, rant away it is best to get it out of your system. This is part of the healing process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 So, all this, and you don't feel it's right to spontaneously get on your own soapbox and explain things. You have very good evidence and reasoning, and you don't want to hurt anyone. Unless, of course, they get in your face about it... at which point it's fair game. I confess I have made people cry. But, in my defence, at that point, it's a no-holds-barred debate. Still, sometimes, when the ambient static of this social climate gets too loud... something might just *snap* ... I think that's where some of this frothing at the mouth idiocy and name calling comes from, from the non-believer side. Because when the same people who would spit in your face say that they're being prosecuted when you , it's hard to reason with people who don't value reason, and it's all too easy to fall back on blistering profane invective out of sheer frustration. I prefer to claim the high ground, play the long game, and stick to calm, logical debate. It's just more effective... still... everybody has bad days. Good point. Well said. I think I sometimes forget that we are all human and we're all prone to lose it at times, and of course we all know what happens then. Nothing good. I think several people have made good points and I feel better for posting this, even though it may have been something that wasn't overly important. Its one of the things I love about this group is that with all the different perspectives, it really makes things more enriched. Everyone has something to offer and I can learn from it all. I'm not skewed by one track Christianity. I can accept or discard whatever works best for me. There's really no right or wrong. You have a good attitude and seem well equipped to deal with intellectual and emotional issues that will likely arise as you deconvert. Much of the intellectual change will deal with your increased use of rational thinking and related tools. You can certainly move through that process yourself by, for example, sharpening your skills in the identification of logical fallacies and truly learning how to say, "I don't know." On the emotional/psychological side, a standard tool is the ability to identify a particular feeling or emotional state in real time and process it. This can take practice. Whether I am sad, glad, mad or afraid about any particular situation/thing is usually quite normal behavior and being able to feel those emotions and deal with them is healthy behavior. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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