Reality Check

[LivingLife]

Your rant is mild but perhaps in defence of the obnoxious atheists, been debating woos for over a decade and sometimes you go to a whole lot of effort and provide back up and links and pics and a long post and you get a rebuttal from them in like 5 minutes where it took you 30min to compose the post.

Sometimes you have to be blunt and cruel to be kind and these fucktards depart from the premise if atheist gives up trying, they win by default.

Come to realise these twats are mere attention whores and thrive on the attention they get. We call them trolls. Most of them have no fucking clue what stands in their babble.

 

Then the atheists that usually are respectful, lose it and the bad stuff happens.

 

These days I just take on the assertion and rebut it from memory and give a whole load of stuff to ponder about. When you know they are itching for a fight and do not give them one, they bow out gracefully.

[Guest r3alchild]

I can't remember who I was before my conversion. I have changed so much in my old beliefs that removing them is removing me. But then do I want to go back to the old me.

[Bhim]

Norm, your post calls to my mind a related issue that I have whenever talking to most atheists.  As someone who is openly hostile to Christianity, I feel that I should have something in common with Western atheists.  I'm not an atheist myself (never have been), but atheists in Christian countries are likewise hostile to Christianity, and I feel that I should be able to talk to these people about all the things that I find harmful and destructive about Christianity.  But most people I read, whether Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, or whoever else, simply resort to open ridicule of Christianity.  It's almost to the point that they resemble stand up comedians.  And therein lies the problem.  I want to have a serious discussion about Christianity, utterly devoid of humor.  It's not that I don't appreciate humor.  It's just that to me, Christianity is a very serious force for evil in the world, and mocking it doesn't seem particularly helpful.  It poses a real threat to civilized society, and when people mock Christianity, I feel that they are essentially admitting defeat.

 

I wish there were more people, even on this forum, who would be willing to have serious discussions about the evils of Christianity without telling any jokes.  Because I'm not here to joke around.

[Guest r3alchild]

All you guys are great!

[par4dcourse]

 

I wish there were more people, even on this forum, who would be willing to have serious discussions about the evils of Christianity without telling any jokes.  Because I'm not here to joke around.

I would argue that just as you use debate and serious discussion to make points, my very nature is to make points through humor and sarcasm. Sometimes a joke with a barb relays a message as well as a debate point, usually without the tension.

I may miss the mark sometimes, just as an argument is sometimes refuted, but I have to laugh to cope.

Besides, xianity provides so much joke fodder.

[new2me]

I wish there were more people, even on this forum, who would be willing to have serious discussions about the evils of Christianity without telling any jokes.  Because I'm not here to joke around.

I'll bet that there many people on this forum who would be more than willing to have this discussion with you.  Post a thread, and spell out in your OP that you would like to have a serious discussion with no jokes.  Most people will respect the 'rules of engagement' when the intent is clearly spelled out.

 

I don't know if you've read Hitchens' God is Not Great, but I thought it did a good job of laying out the evils of Christianity and I don't remember any mocking.  

[Bhim]

Thanks for the suggestion, New2me.

 

I should be clear and say that I don't intend to complain about anyone here in particular, or the board in general.  Just as I'm here for serious discourse, there are others who are here for different reasons.  I suppose it's up to me to find the right threads and join/start the right discussions.

[wndwalkr99]

Okay, so mea culpa: I confess.

In addition to the anger phase of deconversion, there's also an option C: let's say you never believed, yet you consider it a moral obligation to respect everyone's worldview, even if it doesn't agree with yours. It's vitally important to the way people lead their lives, and agonizing to have it undone. Yet, your entire adult life is spent in the context of a "moral majority" declared "culture war" where you read in the media that some (very loud and obnoxious people) people think everything you stand for is evil, you can't stand up for what you believe without being called a baby-eating communist of some sort, and people gasp and back away looking horrified if you ever tell them you don't believe what they do. That automatically, in their minds, makes you evil, and destined to hell. And those are just the loud, irritating extremists, who go door to door, slip pamphlets in books you like to read telling you that you're worthless, yell at you on the bus or sidewalk, or have their own radio shows. A minority of Christians? Sure. But, that's when you think about it a bit, and you realize that the rest have to believe that you're going to Hell anyway, since you can't be convinced. Hell is where bad people go. And unbelievers. So, in their minds, unbelievers are bad people somehow. Just to make it work out in a way that their God isn't evil. That's when it kicks in that some 80% of your country and most of your extended family thinks that you're at least misguided, or probably evil.

 

So, all this, and you don't feel it's right to spontaneously get on your own soapbox and explain things. You have very good evidence and reasoning, and you don't want to hurt anyone. Unless, of course, they get in your face about it... at which point it's fair game. I confess I have made people cry. But, in my defence, at that point, it's a no-holds-barred debate. Still, sometimes, when the ambient static of this social climate gets too loud... something might just *snap* ... I think that's where some of this frothing at the mouth idiocy and name calling comes from, from the non-believer side. Because when the same people who would spit in your face say that they're being prosecuted when you

, it's hard to reason with people who don't value reason, and it's all too easy to fall back on blistering profane invective out of sheer frustration. I prefer to claim the high ground, play the long game, and stick to calm, logical debate. It's just more effective... still... everybody has bad days.

This.

+1

Absolutely, unequivocally THIS.

[mymistake]

Thanks for the suggestion, New2me.

 

I should be clear and say that I don't intend to complain about anyone here in particular, or the board in general.  Just as I'm here for serious discourse, there are others who are here for different reasons.  I suppose it's up to me to find the right threads and join/start the right discussions.

 

 

I can understand if it isn't your cup of tea.  I certainly will respect any request I see for serious conversation.  You might also try the Colosseum or even the Arena which have tighter rules against jokes.

 

The main reason religious jokes are part of my life is because they fight against the negative emotions.  There are plenty of people who struggle with irrational emotions that came from the Christian indoctrination.  So I enjoy both the serious debate that tests for truth and the jokes that fight bad emotions.

[mymistake]

I can't remember who I was before my conversion. I have changed so much in my old beliefs that removing them is removing me. But then do I want to go back to the old me.

 

Before my conversion I was five years old.  Don't look back.  Ask yourself who would you like to be now.  All living things change.  Life is change.  Right now you are more experienced than you have ever been before so use that experience to forge a new path.

[Guest r3alchild]

 

 

I can't remember who I was before my conversion. I have changed so much in my old beliefs that removing them is removing me. But then do I want to go back to the old me.

Before my conversion I was five years old. Don't look back. Ask yourself who would you like to be now. All living things change. Life is change. Right now you are more experienced than you have ever been before so use that experience to forge a new path.

I think I want to be a 37 level mage with +12 Ac and a full range of elemental spells oh wait thats d&d, who am I again?

[RenaissanceWoman]

I am so new to my de-conversion that the jokes and absurdities about the sky god and all that... very helpful for me. I think of it as a giant pendulum. My pendulum had swung so far to the side of Christianity that it couldn't go any further, and now it has swung back the other way. I need to see the other extreme; I want to be knocked upside the head with it. Once I have all that anger out of me and start to find the mocking less fulfilling, I know I will come back to a healthy medium place. For right now, I am happy to go down every rabbit hole on the other side of my pendulum swing: logic, anger, absurdities, mocking, wherever it leads.

 

I hope this makes sense. It's all part of each person's journey out of the pit we were once in.

 

So take those people and their jokes for what they are worth. Maybe not helpful for you, but maybe a necessary jolt for others. I'm happy to see that you are aware of what it is that you need and don't need right now, and you are actively seeking it. Peace to you on your journey, my friend.

[Bhim]

Hi RW. If joking is helpful to you in making sense of your departure from Christianity, then be my guest. After all, this is why we're all here, I think.

 

I've been contemplating this more, and I believe there is another reason to my aversion to jokes about Christianity. My former church is very jovial. Every sermon began with an anecdote or joke, and sermons were interspersed with jokes. The college ministry was largely about having a good time and joking around.

 

And all the while, they taught that you go to hell if you don't believe in Jesus.

 

If you think there really is a place where people who die without faith in Jesus go to burn for all eternity, then you should be spending your time teaching Christians the gospel and constantly winning new converts. You should be serious all the time, because hell is a serious threat, indeed the most serious of threats.

 

I may no longer believe that hell is real, but I do believe that it's serious. Individuals and societies have been done great harm on account of this doctrine, and the teaching of hell is a serious threat, even though going to hell isn't. In my former church, I heard enough jokes to last me a lifetime, and perhaps this is why I'm not interested in hearing jokes about Christianity right now. I'd rather talk seriously about how awful of a religion Christianity is, and how fraudulent a savior Jesus is.

[RenaissanceWoman]

Excellent points, Bhim. You are dead on! I don't joke about Christianity myself, but I do chuckle when I read or hear it. It somehow lets me know I'm not alone in my disgust, if that makes sense.

 

Once I have reached a point of healing of my own self, I look forward to "saving" other Christians still stuck in their nonsense. You are correct to point that out. I love the irony I have read here several times that atheism is the only thing that takes away our "sin". LOL

 

Thanks for your response, Bhim. It is great inspiration for me at this point in my recovery. Peace to you.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

I am so new to my de-conversion that the jokes and absurdities about the sky god and all that... very helpful for me. I think of it as a giant pendulum. My pendulum had swung so far to the side of Christianity that it couldn't go any further, and now it has swung back the other way. I need to see the other extreme; I want to be knocked upside the head with it. Once I have all that anger out of me and start to find the mocking less fulfilling, I know I will come back to a healthy medium place. For right now, I am happy to go down every rabbit hole on the other side of my pendulum swing: logic, anger, absurdities, mocking, wherever it leads.

 

I hope this makes sense. It's all part of each person's journey out of the pit we were once in.

 

So take those people and their jokes for what they are worth. Maybe not helpful for you, but maybe a necessary jolt for others. I'm happy to see that you are aware of what it is that you need and don't need right now, and you are actively seeking it. Peace to you on your journey, my friend.

 

That is good that jokes help you. By the way, have you ever heard of the joke about why the rapture never happened?

[RenaissanceWoman]

That is good that jokes help you. By the way, have you ever heard of the joke about why the rapture never happened?

 

 

I have not heard that, but would love to! (Begging the pardon of the OP, of course.)

[Bhim]

Excellent points, Bhim. You are dead on! I don't joke about Christianity myself, but I do chuckle when I read or hear it. It somehow lets me know I'm not alone in my disgust, if that makes sense.

 

Once I have reached a point of healing of my own self, I look forward to "saving" other Christians still stuck in their nonsense. You are correct to point that out. I love the irony I have read here several times that atheism is the only thing that takes away our "sin". LOL

 

Thanks for your response, Bhim. It is great inspiration for me at this point in my recovery. Peace to you.

 

Any time.  And may I say that I completely share your disgust for Christianity, the gospel, and the evangelical church itself.  Christianity has done a good number of people a great deal of harm.  It truly bothers me to see evangelicals joking about their beliefs, when the implications of their religion would be so severe, were it not a false religion.