Need Help - Seriously

[Open_Minded]

Hello Everyone:

 

By now I hope you all know that I am an open-minded Christian. I have a problem I'm hoping you can help me with. Am not sure which discussion to post in - if this is the wrong place just let me know where I'm suppose to move the topic and I'll comply.

 

Problem in short:

 

Our home is full of teenagers, most of the time joyous, giggling, happy girl teenagers. Our teens are your average well rounded teens brought up with a deep respect for all the world's religions and respect for all people in general. But, many of their friends have not and that is where the problem is.

 

Right now there are two teen girls - 15 and 16 who are in our house on a daily basis. They are good friends of our own 15 year old daughter.

 

Both of these girls come from dysfunctional families and have fallen prey to the local 180 youth group at a very fundamentalist church.

 

One of the girls I am particularly worried about. Her parents love her the best that they can. They are generally good people, but they are alcoholics. This child is having thoughts of suicide and the particular brand of Christianity that she has gotten pulled into is exasperating the problem.

 

Please trust me here... whatever I can do to help this child I will. If becoming agnostic, or atheist, or Buddhist, or whatever is what she needs for health, I will do whatever I can to help her. I DON"T CARE WHAT RELIGION A PERSON IS - or IS NOT (for all you atheists and agnostics out there). But, right now I just have to find a way to help her see how negative, destructive and fearful her current church is.

 

What I need from all of you are the titles of some books that a very vulnerable 15 year old girl can read. The books you suggest cannot go after Christianity in a hard-core way. She couldn't handle it right now. She needs reading material geared at a young-adult female, giving her permission to trust herself. Giving her permission to read the bible differently and look at God differently than she does now.

 

Please keep in mind that she is a female being told by her youth pastor that any major decisions she makes in her life she must talk to him about because she is just a weak female. The first thing I have to do is convince her that she can walk away from that.

 

I am open to any advice you have to offer and titles of any books geared towards a very vulnerable young teen. Thanks in advance.

 

One last thing - I put this post in the Rants and Raves section because I'd truly love to rant about the church she's involved with, but right now I'm just simply worried.

[pandora]

How well read is she for a 15 year old? I starting reading the level of books I read now at that age, so I am wondering if she has too, or if we should try to find things more along the lines middle school or high school literature.

[Open_Minded]

How well read is she for a 15 year old? I starting reading the level of books I read now at that age, so I am wondering if she has too, or if we should try to find things more along the lines middle school or high school literature.

 

Let's go with highschool for right now. She does read books off my bookcase and says that she journals about them. But she's choosing pretty basic books.

 

Thanks for asking - I'm a bit worried right now and hadn't thought to mention that

[Open_Minded]

Little Womenis a good book and the main character "Jo" is very strong.

 

I'm not sure how much empowerment you are looking for her to find but one book mentioned in the SECULAR homeschooling community is a book by Grace Llewlyn entitled "The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education" Helps teenagers realize that they have the power to make choices in this life and that it's okay to follow their own desires and passions and helps them to create a path to success. Here is the link for the book at Amazon... Teenage Liberation Handbook

 

Maybe quitting school isn't the answer but this book could help her realize all that life has to offer and that she can control it in a postitive way

 

Just so you know Open Minded, I'm a homeschooling mother of two and I'm 35 yo(at least for a couple more weeks) :-( I would never recommend some bullshit that would harm a child, I mentioned this book because of people I've known who say it has helped their teenagers decide what they want to do and how they want to do it, it's very motivational.

 

Thank you very much.... I do trust you, all of you here.

 

This young lady has two alcoholics for parents, her one place of sanity is her friendships at school. But, I will check this book out.

 

Again, thank you.

[Amethyst]

Has she read Lord of the Rings yet? Arwen is a good strong female character. It's also based loosely off of Christian mythology, so you can talk to her about what myth is.

[BlueGiant]

Don't have a whole lot in the way of books that I can think of, there is a sort of a survey out there, a copy is at http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

 

This is essentially a framework for figuring how dangerous a group is likely to be to an individual, most of the notes you should need are in there.

 

May also want to point out that any positive changes are most likely not divine intervention, but instead coming from her.

 

Good luck.

[Open_Minded]

Everyone thank you.

 

I hadn't thought of Lord of the Rings, but you're right it's great. I read it when I was about her age.

 

BlueGiant I will definitely check out the website you mentioned. (I had been thinking earlier that it would be nice if exchristian.net had a forum moderated by adults and geared towards teens. The issues teens face are so different from adults. They don't know how to trust themselves, even my own children who have been raised to think for themselves, have trouble trusting their own judgement during these teen years. Then to get caught up in the kind of destructive religion this girl is in... well it has it's own problems.)

 

And SerentityNow thank you for your suggestions and advice, I will check out the books you mentioned. I've a few friends who homeschool and I've always admired them and their approach to learning. So the things you are writing about I've had limited exposure to and they don't sound "shocking" at all. I will definitely check out Age of Reason.

 

Thanks again everyone and I'll check back in tomorrow. It's getting late now.

 

Night... and thanks again. Just doing this little bit gives me a renewed feeling that I can help this young woman. I'm still worried, but at least I have some concrete things I can do...

[ML13]

Please keep in mind that she is a female being told by her youth pastor that any major decisions she makes in her life she must talk to him about because she is just a weak female. The first thing I have to do is convince her that she can walk away from that.

 

Try to tell her that she should not to blindly trust this youth pastor. And that she should always be suspicious when someone tells her she's weak. (even a counselor) Someone in that state can be easily manipulated. I'm not sure how to convince her of this.

 

When I was getting involved with a Christian fundie church group, I was always suspicious of these people's 'sweetness'. I don't think it's normal for people to act so sweet. They're trying to hide something. I was right.

[Dianka]

One of the girls I am particularly worried about. Her parents love her the best that they can. They are generally good people, but they are alcoholics. This child is having thoughts of suicide and the particular brand of Christianity that she has gotten pulled into is exasperating the problem.

 

Oh my, she needs help. Suicide? Please take her to a professional.

 

This is a site with local chapters of an organization that works to prevent suicide

 

Additional help

 

Some people who say they are thinking about suicide really would never get to that point, but anyone who says that it has crossed their mind should be taken seriously.

 

This poor girl needs to get the hell away from that fundie church group as well.

 

Well, I suppose I will throw in a book recommendation. Wicked by Gregory Maguire. Elphaba is a good egg.

 

I hope everything works out.

[Cerise]

May I suggest Stephen Arterburn and Jack Felton's Toxic Faith for a starter?

 

The book is written by Christians for Christians in order to outline the difference between an abusive relationship with God and a healthy relationship.

 

Also "Tired of Trying To Measure Up" by Jeff VanVonderen is a good read for someone who isn't ready to break free of faith, just the controlling, joyless, expectations of those in the faith.

[Asimov]

How well read is she for a 15 year old? I starting reading the level of books I read now at that age, so I am wondering if she has too, or if we should try to find things more along the lines middle school or high school literature.

 

Let's go with highschool for right now. She does read books off my bookcase and says that she journals about them. But she's choosing pretty basic books.

 

Thanks for asking - I'm a bit worried right now and hadn't thought to mention that

 

One series that I really enjoy that has a very strong female role is The Sword of Truth series. It's a fantasy series that touches on philosophy, epistomology, faith, male and female roles.

 

It's an easy read and a good story, but I don't know if that's what you want.

[odintim]

As Pandora said, depeding on how well read she is, I do have one suggestion. Although it might be best you go over some of the more key points first, since one or two of the essays are a bit heavy scientifically, so you could avoid those to begin with.

 

The website is known as Ebon's Musings, and it's fairly easy reading and comprehensive. I used to be a music minister and "shadetree" apologist myself, so if you could let me know exactly what this youth minister is instilling, I might be of better use. In the mean time, I'll go over the website more and single out the more important essays. Don't be frightened by the title of the main page - you might be surprised.

 

Tim

 

Ebon's Musings : http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/index.html

[Vigile]

What I need from all of you are the titles of some books that a very vulnerable 15 year old girl can read. The books you suggest cannot go after Christianity in a hard-core way. She couldn't handle it right now. She needs reading material geared at a young-adult female, giving her permission to trust herself. Giving her permission to read the bible differently and look at God differently than she does now

 

I have the perfect book! Seriously.

 

It's a christian book, so no red flags. She can buy it in the christian bookstore.

 

Wisdom Hunter, by Randall Arthur.

 

It's a book about a strict fundementalist pastor who lost everything due to his heard headedness. He then goes on a journey to find his granddaughter, his only living relative and through the journey he learns to question fundementalism and to seek a more pure true relationship with god.

 

This book caused me to start asking questions, which ultimately led down a road that brought me to where I am today (I'm sure that wasn't the writer's intention). This book is a great read and if she has any depth to her personality she will surely walk away from it inspired to at least question harsh fundementalism.

 

I can't recommend it enough.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159052259...glance&n=283155

[All Gods Fail]

Oh my, she needs help. Suicide? Please take her to a professional.

 

This is a site with local chapters of an organization that works to prevent suicide

 

Additional help

 

Some people who say they are thinking about suicide really would never get to that point, but anyone who says that it has crossed their mind should be taken seriously.

 

Absolutely, I agree 100%! Even if she's just throwing that out to see what kind of reaction it gets, that's a VERY serious sign. I would STRONGLY recommend getting the girl some professional counseling. And if she's suffering from depression, too (not normal, situational depression, but chemical/clinical), suicide might be a very real possibility.

 

BTW, books may not help at all. If someone is in a serious depression, getting involved in a book may simply be impossible because of lack of interest or concentration. Or it may even increase the anxiety (she could see the positive characters/messages as confirmation that she's 'beyond help').

 

I don't want to sound too alarmist, but trust me - I know what I'm talking about when it comes to depression.

[Poonis]

Please keep in mind that she is a female being told by her youth pastor that any major decisions she makes in her life she must talk to him about because she is just a weak female. The first thing I have to do is convince her that she can walk away from that.

 

I am open to any advice you have to offer and titles of any books geared towards a very vulnerable young teen. Thanks in advance.

 

You just posted your answer!

 

Tell that poor girl she can be anything she wants to be, and she is stronger than she realizes. You tell her the opposite of what that cunt pastor is filling her head with! People are prone to suicide when they are told they are worthless, helpless, weak, and unable to do anything for themselves without help from an imaginary friend. If you work on getting her to start seeing she is able to do what she sets her mind to, she will reject that filthy advocate of the church.

[Joyous1]

Dear open minded, I recommend you check out Free Spirit Publishing

 

http://www.freespirit.com/catalog/catalog_...l.cfm?cat_id=13

 

They specialize in self-help books for children and teens, and in my experience they have been quite secular. There is nothing in them that would offend a Christian, but there are plenty of tools for helping teens cope with anything from manners to suicide.

 

As a last resort, if things are getting scary call Child Protection Services. With 2 alcoholic parents she may need a foster home.

[Open_Minded]

Hello Everyone:

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you...

 

First, my daughter is working with this girl to do two things:

 

1. To convince her friend that if she talks to me and tells me all the details I won't go to child and family services and try to remove her from the home she is in. She's afraid that if I, or other adults, know her parents are alcoholics that we will try to remove her from the home. Her parents don't abuse her, they just drink, excessively and neglect her....

2. Talk to the school counselor, who is in a much better position than I am get her professional assistance.

 

This girl and I have had some short discussions about religion... but she's never confided the details of her home life to me. I know details because my own daughter is her friend and concerned enough to come and ask for my advice.

 

As I said before this young woman has asked to borrow books from me, it's the one thing she's willing to discuss with me - books. So, I thought if I could get some books and offer them to her, it would open the door to more conversation.

 

Right now my biggest goal is to get her away from this youth pastor, from what little I know her relationship with that pastor and church is not healthy. She's a bright, young, beautiful, capable girl and she doesn't need anyone telling her she can't make decisions for herself.

 

Thank you again.

 

I appreciate all of your suggestions, and although I must be away today - I will start acting upon your advice tomorrow.

[Amethyst]

I first read LoTR at age 14 or so. It opened the door to my life-long love of fantasy and my love of creative writing.

[Joyous1]

Alateen might be a helpful resource for her as well:

 

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/

[Checkmate]

May I suggest Stephen Arterburn and Jack Felton's Toxic Faith for a starter?

 

The book is written by Christians for Christians in order to outline the difference between an abusive relationship with God and a healthy relationship.

 

Also "Tired of Trying To Measure Up" by Jeff VanVonderen is a good read for someone who isn't ready to break free of faith, just the controlling, joyless, expectations of those in the faith.

Excellent resources, Cerise. I have read both books. (However, be advised that "Toxic Faith" has since been renamed. I can't recall the new title, but it is the same book. It can still be found under this title, however.)

 

Also, from the Grinch library, I can heartily recommend:

 

"The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen

"I'm So Tired of Acting Spiritual" by Melinda Fish

"When Bad Christians Happen to Good People" by Dave Burchett

"12 Steps for the Recovering Pharisee (like me)" by John Fischer

"Fearless Faith" by John Fischer

"Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up" by David Bercot

 

Each and every one of these books are written by CHRISTIAN authors, exposing what they believe is wrong and sick in the church. They aren't trying to destroy anyone's faith. They are just being honest about the obvious evil and deviltry being committed in the name of "Jesus".

 

Also, Open_Minded, it seems that your young lady has been caught in the grips of the "shepherding movement". This is a cult within the Fundy cult. You can read up on it here at Let Us Reason. Once again, Christians blowing the whistle on other "Christians".

 

Hope this helps.

[Cerise]

One thing Open Minded, and I really hate to say it...

 

please be on the look-out for signs of sexual or physical abuse from this pastor. It starts so slowly; a few hints about your general worthlessness, a sign or two that helping in your church makes you more special, a lot of attention from your spiritual "guide" about how you look, what you do, what you say, maybe a "correction" or two and then...

 

Make sure she knows she can talk to you about anything.

[Alice]

I'd always be cautious about promising a child or young person you will not contact the child protection services ~ they might tell you something you really should report. If you promise not to tell - it's easy to get drawn into the web of collusion and lies that collect around abuse. (of course I'm a bit biased in this respect!)

 

Books -

 

I'd suggest 'Finding faith' by Brian Mclaren. it's simply written and its not exactly a threatening title but its where I lost my fundamentalist faith forever and found a way out. it just gives an alternative view about religion and highlights the nonsense of literal interpretation of the Bible.It doesn't deal specifically with the kind of heavy sheparding she's up against but I think its a book that widens the outlook. It still promotes a faith in God and has a christian feel, but given what I know of your own views I would think it would sit fairly comfortably with you. (which always makes recommending someone else read it easier)

[loves_learning]

You know, this is a very unfortunate and scary situation.

 

I was one of those kids...just like the girl you are so worried about. I, too, worried about telling anyone about my own home situation, thought I could just deal with it on my own. I was pretty messed up by 7th grade, and did all sorts of bad things to myself, and school was my only outlet.

 

Anyway, I STRONGLY SUGGEST... no wait...BEG YOU to talk to the school counselor about the situation. Get a feel for the counselor though, because sometimes they suck. I wish someone had done this for me as a child...no one suspected that there was anything that seriously wrong with me because I was an overachiever in school...my school counselor, when I finally admitted what had been going on with me as a senior in high school, told me that it was one of the typical traits of a child in an alcoholic family...some kids react by throwing themselves into school and trying to be the best at everything they have control over. I must also say that right before my senior year of high school was when my brain was hijacked by southern baptists....

 

Anyway, at the age of 15, unless she is extraordinarly mature, I would try fictional stories with strong female characters. If she isn't into fantasy (LOTR has been mentioned a couple of times here...I personally wouldn't suggest it yet, but that's just me) try something by Barbara Kingsolver. "The Bean Trees" is a great one, and is actually on the reading list for many high schools. I think I read it as a junior...it has a very strong TEENAGE female character in it, and directly addresses the ridiculous nature of fundamentalists. If she's up to it, "The Poisonwood Bible" is even better...but longer.

 

What about movies? Other things to spark a conversation? Probably one of the best things you can do right now is try to encourage her in whatever way you can, tell her she's great, ask her opinions of things, push her to think for HERSELF. Also...I wanted to throw this in...make sure you talk to your own daughter A LOT about this too. It can be a lot for a 15 year old to handle, even one with a great family and support base. It could be messing her up a bit, having a friend who is so messed up.

[Open_Minded]

Hello Everyone:

 

I wish I could answer all of you individually, but time does not allow that. So I'll do the best I can here, and If you've any questions or further advice please feel free to jump in. First a few facts about the situation, just so you have the "bigger picture".

 

1. This young woman lives a few blocks from us and knows she is welcome in our home anytime.

 

2. I agree with all of you who have expressed concerns about her needing professional help and will do my best to make sure she gets it. But the situation is complicated by the fact that we live in a small community and her father works at the school. Her mother works at a well known business in town. In other words - everyone in town knows the family. From what my daughter is telling me, this dynamic is adding to the girl's concerns about reaching out for help.

 

3. Right now - I'm just trying to get things to the point where this girl will consent to sit down and talk with me in depth about the situation. From the few discussions we've had about religion - there is a connection. I've never judged her and I hope she remembers this as my daughter talks to her about trusting me now.

 

4. Hesitent, and others, you've mentioned the possibility that I may have to call in child protective services. This is on my mind a lot. I've not made any promises yet, and will try not to. But here are the facts of the situation. Given these facts, as I know them right now, I believe it is possible for her to make it until 18 years of age. I will do my best to earn her trust without making promises I can't keep.

 

Her parents do not physically abuse her

Her main support base is friendships at school, if I called in child and family services she would be removed from this support system.

She is always welcome in this home - so she has a place to escape to if she can't take her home environment.

She really does love her parents and does not want to cause them pain.

 

5. To the ones who suggested alateen. Thank you, this is a resource I had wanted to pursue, but didn't quite know where to start.

 

6. Cerise, I've been worried about sexual abuse as well. It's one of the reasons I really want to talk with her in more depth.

 

7. I have been busy researching all the resources suggested in this thread. Thank you again. I will keep you posted.

 

8. Loves Learning thank you so much for relating your personal experiences. My daughter is talking to her about seeing the school counselor, but as I said the fact that her father works at the school does complicate things. But relating your own experience helps more than you know.

 

9. Mr. Grinch, thanks for mentioning the shepherding movement, I'd not heard of it and had been wondering what kind of crackpot group this is. After reading up on the shepherding movement I've a better idea.

 

This whole shepherding movement thing and Loves Learning's willingness to relate her own teen experience brings me to another request. Since I am trying to get this young woman to trust me more, I need to be very intuitive about what she is dealing with both at home and at church. So... anything any of you can tell me about the following I'd appreciate.

 

* Shepherding movement from the perspective of being a teen girl.

* Life with alcoholic parents

* How did either of these situations impact your view of yourself and your willingness to trust adults?

 

Looking back on things now, what terminology should I avoid in trying to get her to face facts both about her parents and the church she's in.

 

As many of you know, I was not raised in a literalistic way. So, on many levels, I can not comprehend what her mind is putting her through now. And any advice to help me be more intuitive will be appreciated.

 

If any of you know of a teen forum out there that she could go on line and talk with peers that would be helpful too.

 

Thank you again, this is appreciated more than you know.

[Pariah]

As many of you know, I was not raised in a literalistic way.

 

What does this sentence mean? Are you reffering to the Bible?

 

Good luck with her, by the way.