◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I feel I need to rant about this because I was in church today (still have no way to successfully stop going completely) and the pastor committed massive fallacy, saying Christians were being "persecuted" in America for not being willing to conform to the ways of the "immoral" secular culture. The pastor did a bit of a rant, he didn't do a whole lot of shouting like some do, but it doesn't really matter, the things he said really angered me. He starts out by complaining about homosexuality being accepted. He said that people get angry for being told not to have sex until they are married and getting contraception stuff and that people get angry when told that homosexuality is a sin, because "they want us to conform and they hate us for living by faith." What the hell is this crap? No non-Christian or former Christian I know hates him or all Christians because they have "faith". The fact is, more and more people are discovering what Christianity is total crap and are leaving the religion or completely avoiding it all together. The only reason Christian fundamentalists anger anyone is because of the cult mentality the majority of the population in America have. People are being sick of the Christian fundamentalists in this country trying to force everyone to conform to their religion by forcing Christianity and Biblical "morality" upon them. I don't know if this pastor was ignorant of these facts or if he simply refuses to believe these facts because he's so deeply attached to his religion. That was the first part of the rant. The second part is the fact that I can't seem to avoid going to church like I would want to. Most of the time church isn't too bad, but sometimes it is the worst place to be, especially when I hear nonsense like this. The only reason I go is because I have family members that I am really close to, they are very good people, who go to this church and I don't want them to feel sad or scared of what might happen to me if I just stop going to church entirely. In order for me to be able to stop going, they would either need to die within the next week, which I do not want to happen, or I need to get hired by an employer who will have me working every Sunday morning and night, giving me an effective excuse for avoiding church, but even then, I would need to get past the whole, "But if you are a Christian, you could tell them that you believe and need to go to church." without making the employer in question sound like a corrupt person who is using extortion to keep me out of church. That's the end of the rant. It was a bit long, but I needed to get this out. I don't usually post much, actually I don't think I ever have, in the Rants and Replies section, but today I needed to. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I don't understand what specific things Xtians think constitutes persecution. They should at least look up its definition in the dictionary before accusing us of it. I have never heard of a single thing that they are prohibited from doing or required to do in the practice of their faith, unless it invades somebody else's rights or freedom, like posting the 10 commandments on the courthouse grounds. I'd wager that the vast majority of Xtians cannot name the 10 commandments. They violate the "graven images" commandment constantly. Do they even know it? I understand you perfectly about your relatives who go to church and are good people. At least at the churches I have attended in the past the vast majority were good people. That's one of the things that pisses me off so much about the charlatans who take advantage their credulity. Even so, it's hard to find an organization that has so many nice people congregated together as churches do, unless the subjects of religion or politics are brought up. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I don't understand what specific things Xtians think constitutes persecution. [...] This fits in well right here: 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExXex Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 If you do find an easy way of getting out of going to church without your family getting upset let me know right D: In the meantime, I guess it means you can talk through with them what you heard during the sermon and er... undo any of the damage? These things take time man, your people are probably going to twig you're not as Christian as you used to be sooner or later, I doubt you'll be stuck going to church forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 I feel I need to rant about this because I was in church today (still have no way to successfully stop going completely) and the pastor committed massive fallacy, saying Christians were being "persecuted" in America for not being willing to conform to the ways of the "immoral" secular culture. The pastor did a bit of a rant, he didn't do a whole lot of shouting like some do, but it doesn't really matter, the things he said really angered me. He starts out by complaining about homosexuality being accepted. He said that people get angry for being told not to have sex until they are married and getting contraception stuff and that people get angry when told that homosexuality is a sin, because "they want us to conform and they hate us for living by faith." What the hell is this crap? No non-Christian or former Christian I know hates him or all Christians because they have "faith". The fact is, more and more people are discovering what Christianity is total crap and are leaving the religion or completely avoiding it all together. The only reason Christian fundamentalists anger anyone is because of the cult mentality the majority of the population in America have. People are being sick of the Christian fundamentalists in this country trying to force everyone to conform to their religion by forcing Christianity and Biblical "morality" upon them. I don't know if this pastor was ignorant of these facts or if he simply refuses to believe these facts because he's so deeply attached to his religion. That was the first part of the rant. The second part is the fact that I can't seem to avoid going to church like I would want to. Most of the time church isn't too bad, but sometimes it is the worst place to be, especially when I hear nonsense like this. The only reason I go is because I have family members that I am really close to, they are very good people, who go to this church and I don't want them to feel sad or scared of what might happen to me if I just stop going to church entirely. In order for me to be able to stop going, they would either need to die within the next week, which I do not want to happen, or I need to get hired by an employer who will have me working every Sunday morning and night, giving me an effective excuse for avoiding church, but even then, I would need to get past the whole, "But if you are a Christian, you could tell them that you believe and need to go to church." without making the employer in question sound like a corrupt person who is using extortion to keep me out of church. That's the end of the rant. It was a bit long, but I needed to get this out. I don't usually post much, actually I don't think I ever have, in the Rants and Replies section, but today I needed to. You complain about disingenuousness from Christian preachers and yet you act disingenuously when you pretend to be a theist by going to church. And you further pretend to do so in order to "protect" others from reality. Consider getting a clue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 You complain about disingenuousness from Christian preachers and yet you act disingenuously when you pretend to be a theist by going to church. And you further pretend to do so in order to "protect" others from reality. Consider getting a clue. Now there is more too it than that. Christianity controlled our culture for centuries. Even to this day Christians slander all other positions with brainwashing that goes strait to people's core identity. Depending on who you have as relatives there can be serious social consequences for openly questioning or rejecting Christianity. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted May 26, 2013 Author Share Posted May 26, 2013 I feel I need to rant about this because I was in church today (still have no way to successfully stop going completely) and the pastor committed massive fallacy, saying Christians were being "persecuted" in America for not being willing to conform to the ways of the "immoral" secular culture. The pastor did a bit of a rant, he didn't do a whole lot of shouting like some do, but it doesn't really matter, the things he said really angered me. He starts out by complaining about homosexuality being accepted. He said that people get angry for being told not to have sex until they are married and getting contraception stuff and that people get angry when told that homosexuality is a sin, because "they want us to conform and they hate us for living by faith." What the hell is this crap? No non-Christian or former Christian I know hates him or all Christians because they have "faith". The fact is, more and more people are discovering what Christianity is total crap and are leaving the religion or completely avoiding it all together. The only reason Christian fundamentalists anger anyone is because of the cult mentality the majority of the population in America have. People are being sick of the Christian fundamentalists in this country trying to force everyone to conform to their religion by forcing Christianity and Biblical "morality" upon them. I don't know if this pastor was ignorant of these facts or if he simply refuses to believe these facts because he's so deeply attached to his religion. That was the first part of the rant. The second part is the fact that I can't seem to avoid going to church like I would want to. Most of the time church isn't too bad, but sometimes it is the worst place to be, especially when I hear nonsense like this. The only reason I go is because I have family members that I am really close to, they are very good people, who go to this church and I don't want them to feel sad or scared of what might happen to me if I just stop going to church entirely. In order for me to be able to stop going, they would either need to die within the next week, which I do not want to happen, or I need to get hired by an employer who will have me working every Sunday morning and night, giving me an effective excuse for avoiding church, but even then, I would need to get past the whole, "But if you are a Christian, you could tell them that you believe and need to go to church." without making the employer in question sound like a corrupt person who is using extortion to keep me out of church. That's the end of the rant. It was a bit long, but I needed to get this out. I don't usually post much, actually I don't think I ever have, in the Rants and Replies section, but today I needed to. You complain about disingenuousness from Christian preachers and yet you act disingenuously when you pretend to be a theist by going to church. And you further pretend to do so in order to "protect" others from reality. Consider getting a clue. What you need to understand though is I don't feel like I have a choice in the matter. I could always "get a clue" and say, "Guess what family members who are Christians, I don't believe anymore!" Do you recommend me doing that? I might as well be committing suicide in front of them, based on the reactions I would get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 I feel I need to rant about this because I was in church today (still have no way to successfully stop going completely) and the pastor committed massive fallacy, saying Christians were being "persecuted" in America for not being willing to conform to the ways of the "immoral" secular culture. The pastor did a bit of a rant, he didn't do a whole lot of shouting like some do, but it doesn't really matter, the things he said really angered me. He starts out by complaining about homosexuality being accepted. He said that people get angry for being told not to have sex until they are married and getting contraception stuff and that people get angry when told that homosexuality is a sin, because "they want us to conform and they hate us for living by faith." What the hell is this crap? No non-Christian or former Christian I know hates him or all Christians because they have "faith". The fact is, more and more people are discovering what Christianity is total crap and are leaving the religion or completely avoiding it all together. The only reason Christian fundamentalists anger anyone is because of the cult mentality the majority of the population in America have. People are being sick of the Christian fundamentalists in this country trying to force everyone to conform to their religion by forcing Christianity and Biblical "morality" upon them. I don't know if this pastor was ignorant of these facts or if he simply refuses to believe these facts because he's so deeply attached to his religion. That was the first part of the rant. The second part is the fact that I can't seem to avoid going to church like I would want to. Most of the time church isn't too bad, but sometimes it is the worst place to be, especially when I hear nonsense like this. The only reason I go is because I have family members that I am really close to, they are very good people, who go to this church and I don't want them to feel sad or scared of what might happen to me if I just stop going to church entirely. In order for me to be able to stop going, they would either need to die within the next week, which I do not want to happen, or I need to get hired by an employer who will have me working every Sunday morning and night, giving me an effective excuse for avoiding church, but even then, I would need to get past the whole, "But if you are a Christian, you could tell them that you believe and need to go to church." without making the employer in question sound like a corrupt person who is using extortion to keep me out of church. That's the end of the rant. It was a bit long, but I needed to get this out. I don't usually post much, actually I don't think I ever have, in the Rants and Replies section, but today I needed to. You complain about disingenuousness from Christian preachers and yet you act disingenuously when you pretend to be a theist by going to church. And you further pretend to do so in order to "protect" others from reality. Consider getting a clue. What you need to understand though is I don't feel like I have a choice in the matter. I could always "get a clue" and say, "Guess what family members who are Christians, I don't believe anymore!" Do you recommend me doing that? I might as well be committing suicide in front of them, based on the reactions I would get. Well, it is certainly a different topic, of sorts. I suppose you need to choose between being honest (telling folks) and continuing to act disingenuously (not telling folks). My point was you were complaining about someone (a preacher) being disingenuous when you were being disingenuous at the same time. Pot calling the kettle black and such. Your response failed to address this point. On another level, why are you codependent with the religious beliefs of certain family members? What are your fears in being honest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted May 27, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted May 27, 2013 The only reason I go is because I have family members that I am really close to, they are very good people Very good people accept other people; even those who disagree with them. Very good people consider every person entitled to draw their own conclusions and form their own opinions. Very good people will love and respect you as an equal. Apparently, you don't really think they are such very good people after all. Give them a chance to know and love the real you. At this juncture, they don't even know you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 Well, it is certainly a different topic, of sorts. I suppose you need to choose between being honest (telling folks) and continuing to act disingenuously (not telling folks). My point was you were complaining about someone (a preacher) being disingenuous when you were being disingenuous at the same time. Pot calling the kettle black and such. Your response failed to address this point. On another level, why are you codependent with the religious beliefs of certain family members? What are your fears in being honest? I know that I am doing what the pastor was doing by pretending to still believe, but I don't want to be and feel like I need to be. I failed to address much of anything in my response, since it was an emotional outburst and that was about it. To answer why I am codependent and why I am afraid of being honest is in the response I'm going to give to Florduh later on in this same post. The only reason I go is because I have family members that I am really close to, they are very good people Very good people accept other people; even those who disagree with them. Very good people consider every person entitled to draw their own conclusions and form their own opinions. Very good people will love and respect you as an equal. Apparently, you don't really think they are such very good people after all. Give them a chance to know and love the real you. At this juncture, they don't even know you. I do consider them good people and I don't think they will think any less of me knowing that I no longer believe. I just don't want them to feel afraid and grieve over me for the rest of their lives because they think I'm going to Hell. They certainly would never want me there, regardless of whether or not I have faith, but they would believe that I was going there because the buybull says so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 Deception in order to not aggravate the delusions of people you care about and deception in order to enslave people so you can squeeze money out of them by brainwashing them with hate are two very different animals. I largely agree with Floriduh, however it depends on the personal response of each family members. Some of them could be secret atheists, agnostics, ex-Christians and so on. Some of them might be way out there in Whacky Land. Sometimes it might not be possible to fix. Best of luck to you Crazyguy. I hope you get to a place where you can finally be yourself. I can understand why that isn't always possible. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 It is better for people to not like you for what you are than to love you for what you are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamecock1973 Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 Heck, I moved to Asia so I wouldn't have to go to church anymore! I can relate! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 Ugh. I remember feeling "persecuted" as a believer. However, I now realize that "feeling threatened because the world isn't turning out my way" is certainly not the same thing as persecution. When will Christians realize their worldview is but one of many equally legitimate (or not) perspectives? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 ...and I agree with the others who said that it's socially complicated to come out as a non-believer. My in-laws are elderly and the last thing I want is for them to spend their last years on this earth on their knees interceding for me. I don't lie, and I don't fake it, but I'm not coming out in so many words. I can talk the talk well enough to have cogent discussions as needed, but I openly 'pass' on praying and other behaviors that I can no longer do honestly. They know we don't attend church but don't know the real reason (that I'm an atheist). I would be seriously pained and troubled if I had to attend church on any sort of regular basis. Some people here at Ex-C play chess on their iPhones, surf Ex-C on their iPhones, or write great inane church stories for us here at Ex-C on their iPhones. Gosh, iPhones are the church-going atheists best friend! :-) Keep us posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantophobia Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 Ugh. I remember feeling "persecuted" as a believer. However, I now realize that "feeling threatened because the world isn't turning out my way" is certainly not the same thing as persecution. When will Christians realize their worldview is but one of many equally legitimate (or not) perspectives? It's the equivalent of the biggest bully on the playground running and crying to the teacher that "everyone is being mean to me!" when one of the little kids pushes back. Few things piss me off more than this myth of Christian persecution. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceWoman Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 I don't understand what specific things Xtians think constitutes persecution. They should at least look up its definition in the dictionary before accusing us of it... Exactly, Bill! Even when I was deep in the church stuff, I would cringe a little when this topic would come up. I remember thinking, "Really? The only persecution I am feeling is from the devout people sitting here in the music pit with me (who tell me that they "love me deeply")." Sheesh. In other words, instead of accusing atheists of it (from outside their bubble), they should at least look around themselves and see the true source of it from within their own organization. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expat674 Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Xtians in the UK love to wail about how their faith is under threat from the government and the state. This is the same state that has as its head the Queen who is the defender of the (christian) faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExXex Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 I remember people in my old church getting hysterical because 'omg they stopped doing christian christmas stamps D:' when it turned out you just had to ask for them specifically or something. Uk Christians have it so easy they have to make up things to be persecuted about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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