There Are Places In The World Where...

[ContraBardus]

There are places in the world where...insert inane claim of torture and/or persecution of people of Christian faith here.

 

Where? Seriously. Where?

 

I hear this all the time, about how Christians have to hide in caves and act like drug dealers on street corners. Where cops pull them over and check their rides for copies of the KJB to see if they're not ridin dirty. Places they are chained to rocks and whipped before being raped, having their limbs chopped off, and then being burned at the stake.

 

This has become the stock answer for denial that they are 'persecuted' in America along with a long list of exactly why they aren't. If they were 'persecuted' they wouldn't be allowed to build huge mega churches, protest the funerals of American Soldiers, stand on street corners screaming at traffic, or run for public office spewing about how they'll 'bring God back' to America. Though, I can kind of understand why he might have wanted a break and took off for a while.

 

It's supported by the pulpits of Churches everywhere who relate horror stories that may or may not be true. Even when they are, they are examples of abnormality, not 'how it is' wherever they are talking about. They are also fond of using places in the past where persecutions did happen. Such as Mexico, where they had a bit of trouble a while back with the secularist government had to deal with a group of Christian terrorists and admittedly overreacted to deal with it. [see the film 'For Greater Glory', well, don't see it. It's horrible, but it's an example of Christian propaganda that tries to alter history.] Yet many Christians like to cite it as an example of 'how persecuted they are' as if it was still going on to this day. Seriously, if you go to Mexico, there are more pictures of Mary and Jesus in a city block in that country than there are in the whole of the Vatican City. I fail to see how citing 'persecution' that happened almost a century ago is relevant, and they often go on about things much older than that as if they still happen to this very day.

 

Da Muslims! Most Muslim countries allow Christians to worship. The Qua'ran commands that they be tolerated. Most Muslim countries adhere to this.

 

There are a few places where being Christian is actively illegal. Saudi Arabia, though they allow for foreigners to worship in specific areas, and North Korea, where you worship Mr. Potato Head or are executed for dissent.

 

The thing is, even in these places, or countries deemed 'dangerous' for Christians, the average number of deaths in a year is often less than 30. If that's their measure of how 'persecuted' they are then we definitely persecute them, because almost two million Christians die in the US every year. Arrests and other incidents have a similar rate. They aren't actually that bad, and there are very few places where they aren't simply put up with, even if they aren't allowed to stand on the corners of streets and scream at people while trying to hit them in the forehead with a thick black book.

 

I won't deny that there are places where it's not exactly great to be Christian, but they are a Minority, and the level of misery and danger that Christians claim in those places is largely extremely exaggerated. They act as if they are still tossed to the lions and ground under the boot heels of any government that exists outside of America, and that isn't true. Even in places where Christianity is an extreme minority, they are mostly tolerated and accepted as long as they obey the law.

 

To be honest, I'm pretty sure there are far more places where it is dangerous to -not- be Christian than places where it is dangerous to be one.

 

It's simply yet another bubble outside of reality created by Christians, and it irritates the hell out of me.

[Bhim]

Yes, I absolutely agree that Christians make a lot of false claims of persecution.  In addition to Saudi Arabia there is Iran, where a Christian pastor was recently jailed.  But even here there are mitigating details.  He's a convert from Islam (which is illegal there), lives in the US, and comes back to convert more Muslims.  Sounds like he wouldn't have gotten in trouble if he just left them alone.

 

There are instances where Christians claim persecution without telling you the details.  I remember a few years back (when I was steeped in Christianity) that there was a bout of sectarian violence against Christians in the Indian state of Orissa.  Following the death of an anti-proselytizing Hindu priest, Christians were blamed for the incident (no idea if they really were or not) and many Christian homes and business were burned down.  Now admittedly, India has a major problem with sectarian violence between Hindus, Muslims, and occasionally Christians.  What you may not know, however, is that northeast India has a problem with Christian terrorism.  The National Liberation Front of Tripura, a terrorist organization, is funded by Baptists!

 

Let's be clear.  Acts of violence against people are never acceptable.  And it's unfortunate when a person is targeted due to actions by others who are at best weakly affiliated with him (e.g. Christian families being attacked because some Western missionary came over and started converting people).  However, in most of these cases it seems that Christians aren't being targeted because of their beliefs.  Most Indians I know don't care if you believe in Jesus, go to a church, and study the Bible with people.  But what no one likes is when Western missionaries, funded by American tithe dollars, come in and try to destroy peoples' belief system by converting vulnerable individuals to Christianity.  No, it should never result in violence, but really acts like these are rare.

 

Christians often complain about India's anti-conversion laws, which make it difficult for missionaries to convert locals.  An American watchdog group recently even called India out for violation of religious freedom because of this.  I find it grossly hypocritical that Christians don't seem to have a problem with the fact that proselytizing is illegal in Israel too.  I wonder if this is because we're a bunch of pagans whereas Israeli Jews are God's chosen people.

 

In any case, in both India and Israel there are many churches, and people are free to worship however they please.  What people are not allowed to do is convert others to Christianity.  In America we see that Christians say they're persecuted for not being allowed to have faculty-led Bible study in public schools (mind you, student prayer/worship in school has always been legal), not being allowed to call America a Christian nation, and not forcing all Americans to be Christian.  And yet Christian senators objected when a Hindu delivered the opening prayer in the US Senate, to say nothing of the Christians who verbally heckled the man and were escorted out.  Christians would deny the same rights they reserve for themselves.  And if they are treated as equal to people of other religions, they call it persecution.

 

Christians have a fine definition of persecution.  A Christian is persecuted when he is denied the right to dominate a non-Christian.

[OpheliaGinger]

And then they hate it when you bring up places like Uganda where the Christians are continuing inquisitional practices.

[Gamecock1973]

Yeah, i live in China...you know an evil, atheistic, communist, xtian persecuting nation (according to my parents).  Back in my xtian missionary days (like 10 years ago, not 30) I heard all sorts of stories about how the underground church in China was exploding with revival and it was perhaps the largest growing church in the world..millions were coming to jeebus in house churches while people were being hauled away to jail and unnamed martyrs were  dying for their faith!  Let me assure you, this was/is utter bullshit and propaganda.  Xtians love to exaggerate and pass around a story when it fits their fictional worldview.

 

There is no massive underground church in China.  You're hard-pressed to find xtians at all.  You do occasionally run into them, and after lots of conversations with my few xtian college students I have learned that they all pretty much worship openly in the church down on the corner every sunday. They are never stopped or discouraged from evangelism by the authorities (nor have they ever been told by anyone in their church that "witnessing" might be dangerous or illegal!), and they have never heard of the idea that xtians in China are being persecuted by the government at all.  You can go into the big bookstore in my city and buy a bible in chinese or english (or both for you language learners!).  I guess if Brother Andrew had just held off and let greedy capitalism do it's work, he wouldn't have needed to smuggle all those Bibles here!

 

Actually, there are some cults here in China that are monitored and arrests are made, but it is because they have a political agenda of overthrowing the government, not because of their religious practices.  There is no demand that people be atheists, nor does the government really care about how people worship as long as it doesn't hinder a "harmonious society."  Now FOREIGNERS evangelizing is not kosher...which can hardly be blamed when one studies the ugly history of foreign missionaries in China.  As well, the Vatican has not been allowed to get its priests back into China.  There is a chinese Catholic church that is not under the Pope's jurisdiction.

 

I love living in a place where there are no mormons or jehovah witnesses knocking on my door, no religious nutcases constantly trying to dictate how I should live both personally and via legislation.  China has PLENTY of it's own issues.  But I'm pretty damn happy not dealing with religion on a daily basis.

 

In my experience, the Christians who get persecuted TODAY, often work hard (i.e. do obnoxious things) to put themselves in that position....like the South Korean guy in jail right now in North Korea.  Turns out he is a missionary with YWAM.  Go figure.

[Thurisaz]

Remember, it's only persecution if Them Ones do it!

[inorbit]

Ha, yeah. I can empathize with the missionary thing. And I also was in China for a bit. Looking back now, I can see the BS. I sincerely believed it before, like so many other things in Christianity... I've thought about moving back to China, too.

[Gamecock1973]

Oh, just read that a politician in Kansas is pushing a bill to protect xtian American troops from being persecuted by the government! Turns out, soldiers are not allowed to have bible  verses engraved on the scopes of their rifles!!!  Persecution!!! hehe

[R. S. Martin]

Oh, just read that a politician in Kansas is pushing a bill to protect xtian American troops from being persecuted by the government! Turns out, soldiers are not allowed to have bible  verses engraved on the scopes of their rifles!!!  Persecution!!! hehe

 

Okay this is where my ignorance shows but aren't the scopes the things you look through to aim straight? If so, engraving something on them would distort vision. Making it illegal to distort the vision of a soldier shooting his rifle just makes so much sense. If the soldier thinks he can see better when looking through inscribed words of scripture--it just seems like there's something seriously the matter with his/her reality perception on such a fundamental basis. Either that, or they're inventing something so they can say they're being persecuted in order to fulfill the word of Christ.

[R. S. Martin]

There are places in the world where...faith healing works and limbs are restored.

 

That's what I was going to say before reading the OP.

 

When I asked whether anyone ever checked it out with medical proof, etc., I was told, "I choose to believe it."

[Thurisaz]

To be fair, I'd suppose they want to scratch their majic spells on the outer casings of the scopes, not on the lenses. But yeah, as ludicrous as everything coming from morontheists.

[ContraBardus]

To be fair, I'd suppose they want to scratch their majic spells on the outer casings of the scopes, not on the lenses. But yeah, as ludicrous as everything coming from morontheists.

 

Yeah, it's on the casings, not the lenses. It doesn't affect the performance of the weapon.

 

The problem isn't that they are using Bible verses, it's that those scopes are not the personal property of the troops. They are government issue gear, not personal belongings. That's where the crux of the issue lies, the defacing of government property, the fact that they are using Bible verses is actually irrelevant unless you're a fundy moron who doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about and just wants to be angry for the Gubment for oppressing the beliefs of America's Greatest Heroes because you just want an excuse to be angry at the Gubment in general so you can revel in how awful Christians are treated by everyone else and how it will soon be illegal for you to practice your faith because the Gubment is made of evil Muslim Socialist Secularists that worship Hitler [The most leftist socialist dictator ever] and Charles Darwin so you can wallow in your persecution complex and feel oppressed enough to make Jesus pleased with you for being so righteous. The writing is on the wall, and it's obvious that the rest of the country is just blind to it all.

 

It's not the government suppressing their religious beliefs. If you've ever been in the military you'd know how stupid even suggesting that is. It's kind of like being in the Boyscouts, you don't have to believe in God, but it's...encouraged. They won't punish you for what you believe or don't for the most part, you are free to worship as you please, but they will get in your face and scream at you about how much they love Jesus when you fuck up enough. It's not as bad as it sounds as they get in your face and scream at you about everything anyway when things don't go well for whatever reason. It's especially bad during training as you don't even have to fuck up to get yelled at it's just how they tell you to do stuff.

 

It's not about a religious issue, it's the military cracking down on troops vandalizing government property as if it was their personal belongings. The military has always had a strong conformist attitude anyway. Anything that makes you or your gear stand out as different than everyone else's is not cool with them. You are a soldier, your weapons will be immaculate, your uniform will be regulation and only regulation, and you are not an individual anymore until you retire or die, you are a machine, you are one of many from the same mold, and you will follow your orders in the same manner as your brothers in arms without question. You might be leading, but you are still following, do you understand me you low life maggot scumbags?

 

Sorry, had a bit of a flashback there, anyway...

 

The idiots who've never served don't understand this and get angry over 'oppression of faith' when it's really got nothing to do with it. It's the military doing what the military has always done, and there are very good reasons why it does. Civilians who have never served will have a hard time understanding it. The military doesn't like you engraving shit into your scope for the same reason public schools don't like you carving or drawing graffiti into the top of your desk.

[R. S. Martin]

Thanks, Thurisaz and Contra for clarifying the engraving of rifle scopes.

[Thurisaz]

Glad to have helped