United States

[crazy-tiger]

Interesting....my utopian healthcare system is no utopia....HUF

 

You crushed my dreams, CT.

 

=)~

Yeah... there needs to be some balance between cost, demand, supply and resources... though it's well known that if those who had the insurance for private care actually went private instead of staying public and pocketing the money, then the problems the system has wouldn't be as bad as they can be.

I've got a friend who pays £300 a year for insurance (cheap isn't it? but it only pays for certain things...) and he gets new glasses each year. The insurance pays £150 for them, but he uses the subsidised service to get them for free...

Now imagine a couple of million doing that each year, and you can see part of the problem.

 

 

 

Personally, if they made it a requirement that those who have insurance had to go private, then I think it'd be better... but it'll never be perfect. (at least it'd stop people abusing the system... )

[Lycorth]

Ah, America. How my views have changed over the years.

 

I used to be a flag-waving good ol' Christian boy who thought America was "God's Country". Especially when I was a Protestant for about a year's time - hoo boy. I look back and laugh at that something fierce.

 

Today, it's a mixture of both. I love America for the freedom it offers me to be what I am. I don't need to hide my religious views and worry that there is a firing squad waiting for me after I close my mouth, and I don't have to worry about secret police following me around every corner. I can choose how I want to live here and freedom is enough reason to love something.

 

But that's a double-edged sword. I wouldn't get a whole heck of a lot of support from any official organization, especially a governmental one, about my religious views. With the increase in Big Brother under both parties, I wonder if a secret police isn't just around that corner, waiting for me to show up. I can choose how I want to live here, but only to a degree anymore. With the rising costs of everything, the outsourcing of our jobs, and the growing crime and dangerousness of many areas, I sadly can't just settle down anywhere I like and live as I want. And I can't even live without paying taxes through the nose and chopping my way through a jungle of red tape each time.

 

Iraq? On one hand, I couldn't have cared less about Saddam's regime. I don't care about the Arab nations or about Israel - they're both a pack of feuding terrorists over there, killing each other ultmately on account of their nutjob religions. But we have better things to do than be over there. I am no pacifist and think it a foolish and unnatural belief, but I am pretty much against this war now. Our boys have lives over here - and families they probably have to work tooth and nail to help survive. It isn't like in WWII, where you just got a job and worked hard and put food on the table - life is way too expensive anymore. They belong here, not out in some sandy toilet sniping at religious whackadoos. If someone strikes us first, fine, I'm all for retaliation - but this is way too much already. And it was never our fight to begin with; some in our government think that, as a "Christian Nation", we have the duty to support "God's Chosen People" against the Muslims, but the reality is there are no chosen people, and siding with a rattlesnake against a cobra means you still get bitten in the end.

 

I am sick to death of both parties. The Democrats are for big government and the Republicans for big money. Either we have Washington running our lives, or we sell our souls to Wall-Mart. I have finally come to terms, after almost a decade of supporting the right wing and the Republican party, that both parties are two edges of the same vile sword. I am against them both and am sick of playing their games, especially come each election. But the sad fact is that both parties are far too large and powerful for any third party to overthrow one or both. It would be wonderful, but it won't happen in out lifetimes, I'm afraid. In fact, the way things are here will likely not change until it falls apart beyond repair.

 

Well, that's me two cents. I still fly my flag on occasion and remember what the Fathers of our nation wanted. Bits of that still live on today, but it's becoming buried under an ever-increasing mountain of crap built up by those who have forgotten that America was intended to be about freedom, independence, and honor. I don't see any of that when I turn on the national news.

 

The Fathers of our country must be spinning in their graves.

 

And since I don't have an edit button for my posts...

 

Healthcare - I am increasingly appalled at how expensive it's getting. You know, I am getting all for universal healthcare. Taxes? We already pay high taxes as it is? Just turn off the funding for most of the crap our taxes are going to now and use it to pay for universal healthcare. They want universal religion and everyone to sell their souls to Jesus, but God for-fucking-bid we get the same kind of across the board healthcare. What a joke.

 

I'm done... for now...

[ped]

"I am sick to death of both parties. The Democrats are for big government and the Republicans for big money."

 

i keep hearing this from mainstream media people/watchers.

i always had the impression that "big government" meant a sorta totalitarian government. one with hard rules and a zero telerance, sorta do as we say thing. thats totally republican (perhaps genaric dems. too).

[nightflight]

i keep hearing this from mainstream media people/watchers.

i always had the impression that "big government" meant a sorta totalitarian government. one with hard rules and a zero telerance, sorta do as we say thing. thats totally republican (perhaps genaric dems. too).

 

No, big government can also mean "let us take care of you". The Nanny State; entitlement mentality. In every fucking crevice of our lives. The word "compassion" comes to mind.

[Open_Minded]

I keep seeing this "just show me who has better health care" statement coming up. It would be nice if any of you out there in Canada, England, Germany, or anyplace else, would weigh in on this. I can't speak from personal experience, but I worked for a large Enlglish company for a couple of years and the English guys I worked with loved their country's health system. In fact, some of them would catch a plane back to England when they were sick rather than go to an American doctor.

 

In addition to hearing from folks abroad, it would also be nice to hear from folks who live in American States trying to find state solutions to this problem. I've often thought that if my state (or federal government) would allow affordable access to the same insurance state/federal employees have access to - it would go a long way to solving the problem. How about it, does anyone live in a state pursuing this as an option? How does it work?

 

As far as my money being used to help others, I would much rather my tax money be spent on an American that needs antibiotics, than on bombs to kill innocent Iraqis.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself, thanks No Heaven

[Vigile]

Excellent. Let's take a look a Russia's health care system then. Could you give us a run down on how it all works there ?

 

Frankly I'm ambivalent about the health issue, I was just pointing out your big, stinking logical fallacy.

 

Since you asked though, the Russian system, while not perfect, is a hell of a lot cheaper than the US and unless I had to undergo majorly complicated surgery I'd trust the docs here probably more so than I would the docs in the US. Here they listen to you and take into account your diet, stress, and other factors that contribute to health problems. Then they are not quick to just write a prescription, but will work with you on lifestyle change, etc. to help you heal in a more healthy way.

[Vigile]

i keep hearing this from mainstream media people/watchers.

i always had the impression that "big government" meant a sorta totalitarian government. one with hard rules and a zero telerance, sorta do as we say thing. thats totally republican (perhaps genaric dems. too).

 

No, big government can also mean "let us take care of you". The Nanny State; entitlement mentality. In every fucking crevice of our lives. The word "compassion" comes to mind.

 

It's also turned into a corporate feeding frenzy as lobbyist "help" politicians see how they can better spend tax dollars. Anyway, I already voted with my feet so I guess I don't have much moral leverage to argue US domestic issues. I don't care what they do with the health system, but I sure as heck don't want to contribute toward it out of my pocket, especially since I'm not benefiting from it.

[Chad3232132]

I keep seeing this "just show me who has better health care" statement coming up. It would be nice if any of you out there in Canada, England, Germany, or anyplace else, would weigh in on this. I can't speak from personal experience, but I worked for a large Enlglish company for a couple of years and the English guys I worked with loved their country's health system. In fact, some of them would catch a plane back to England when they were sick rather than go to an American doctor.

Someone called...?

 

Currently, here in the UK, there is blanket health coverage... everyone is entitled to a certain level of healthcare, whether they have insurance or not. The limits are not usually financial, but chronological...

No one needs to pay a nice, huge sum just to see a GP/Dentist/Nurse or the like... It's all paid for by taxes. (and before you say anything, it's not a seperate tax... it's all lumped in together) Admittedly, some of the brand-new, super expensive treatments are not available in this system, but as time goes by, they do end up being available as the price drops. (sounds harsh... but if the price for 1 new treatment would pay for 100 people getting the old treatment, then they have to go with the 100...)

 

The time limit is due to often having to wait for less critical procedures... damn near 2 years for hip replacements, just for example, while things like heart bypass is just a few weeks to a few months. This is an unfortunate side-effect of blanket healthcare.

 

Now, you can still take out health insurance, which will often enable you to "jump the queue" as it were... sounds good in practice, but what often happens is those with insurance use the standard healthcare and claim for the procedure, pocketing the cash...

This happens mainly with dental/eye care, but extends as far as full-blown operations... This places a massive amount of strain on the system and is no more than a scam. Small wonder there are queues...

 

 

All in all, the healthcare system here is superior to the US in that no-one gets excluded.

 

Very interesting response Crazy-Tiger. In all fairness to Britain, that country is widely considered to have an under-funded state healthcare system. I believe you Brits have a relatively low priced per capita healthcare system, and this might account for longer waits for procedures, etc. I know most European countries pay a good deal more out per capita on healthcare (still far lower per person than us Americans spend though) and they of course get more in return.

[Chad3232132]

I'd like to respond to one other little thing that Megistias keeps throwing up in our faces. He keeps asking us which cookie cutter model we in the U.S. should pattern a potential healthcare system after. My response: NONE! Who says we have to copy anyone's model? Why can't we have an open public debate in America on the state of healthcare and come up with a realistic solution, drawing from what we consider the best aspects of other nation's healthcare systems, while leaving out the worst. And maybe add in a little American ingenuity and uniqueness to boot. That's my ideal scenario. There is no need to import any one system. Unfortunately the corporate lobbies are so large and powerful in the Republican Party and to a lesser degree the Democratic Party, that this debate may not occur anytime soon. Fortunately the backlash towards corporate healthcare is growing quickly and the sheer magnitude of the costs involves with having even minimal coverage will eventually demand fundamental change.

[No Heaven for Kevin]

I'd like to respond to one other little thing that Megistias keeps throwing up in our faces. He keeps asking us which cookie cutter model we in the U.S. should pattern a potential healthcare system after. My response: NONE! Who says we have to copy anyone's model? Why can't we have an open public debate in America on the state of healthcare and come up with a realistic solution, drawing from what we consider the best aspects of other nation's healthcare systems, while leaving out the worst. And maybe add in a little American ingenuity and uniqueness to boot. That's my ideal scenario. There is no need to import any one system. Unfortunately the corporate lobbies are so large and powerful in the Republican Party and to a lesser degree the Democratic Party, that this debate may not occur anytime soon. Fortunately the backlash towards corporate healthcare is growing quickly and the sheer magnitude of the costs involves with having even minimal coverage will eventually demand fundamental change.

 

Very good comment. After all, wasn't our original goverment formed in the same fashion? Our founding fathers didn't copy anyone's system exactly, but mixed the best principles of other governments and made some of it up their selves.

[Chad3232132]

I'd like to respond to one other little thing that Megistias keeps throwing up in our faces. He keeps asking us which cookie cutter model we in the U.S. should pattern a potential healthcare system after. My response: NONE! Who says we have to copy anyone's model? Why can't we have an open public debate in America on the state of healthcare and come up with a realistic solution, drawing from what we consider the best aspects of other nation's healthcare systems, while leaving out the worst. And maybe add in a little American ingenuity and uniqueness to boot. That's my ideal scenario. There is no need to import any one system. Unfortunately the corporate lobbies are so large and powerful in the Republican Party and to a lesser degree the Democratic Party, that this debate may not occur anytime soon. Fortunately the backlash towards corporate healthcare is growing quickly and the sheer magnitude of the costs involves with having even minimal coverage will eventually demand fundamental change.

 

Very good comment. After all, wasn't our original goverment formed in the same fashion? Our founding fathers didn't copy anyone's system exactly, but mixed the best principles of other governments and made some of it us their selves.

 

Basically yes. Borrowed a little from Britain (English Common Law especially), a little from the Roman Empire, a little from Ancent Greece, etc.

[Ro-bear]

Well, I haven't visited this thread since the first day, and boy has it turned ugly. Some good points have been raised, but they are almost drowned in the vitriol that pervades this thread. Why is it necessary to insult those with whom we disagree?

 

I think some people are more interested in stirring up emotions in others than in intelligently discussing the issues.

 

Just my $.02.

[Checkmate]

Well, I haven't visited this thread since the first day, and boy has it turned ugly. Some good points have been raised, but they are almost drowned in the vitriol that pervades this thread. Why is it necessary to insult those with whom we disagree?

 

I think some people are more interested in stirring up emotions in others than in intelligently discussing the issues.

 

Just my $.02.

Well, you know what they say: "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few heads eggs."

 

Seriously, though, has there EVER, in the known history of the World, EVER been any positive advances made in society WITHOUT violence/warfare? I'm hard pressed to think of any. Even the vaunted quest for peace is shamefully accompanied by violence.

 

I suppose this is our unfortunate lot in life.

 

Oh well. I'm going back to hide underneath my covers. Someone let me know when the war is over, willya?

[Dianka]

I'd like to respond to one other little thing that Megistias keeps throwing up in our faces. He keeps asking us which cookie cutter model we in the U.S. should pattern a potential healthcare system after. My response: NONE! Who says we have to copy anyone's model? Why can't we have an open public debate in America on the state of healthcare and come up with a realistic solution, drawing from what we consider the best aspects of other nation's healthcare systems, while leaving out the worst. And maybe add in a little American ingenuity and uniqueness to boot. That's my ideal scenario. There is no need to import any one system.

 

Right, this was my thought. Good point.

 

Well, you know what they say: "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few heads eggs."

 

Seriously, though, has there EVER, in the known history of the World, EVER been any positive advances made in society WITHOUT violence/warfare? I'm hard pressed to think of any. Even the vaunted quest for peace is shamefully accompanied by violence.

 

I suppose this is our unfortunate lot in life.

 

Oh well. I'm going back to hide underneath my covers. Someone let me know when the war is over, willya?

 

Social conflict theorist, aye?

 

Nothing wrong with that, I agree. Busting a few skulls is a necessary element in social change.

[odintim]

Well, I suppose since I was the one that started this thread, I should chime in as a - ahem - "foreigner". Sorry, but speaking of healthcare, I've not been feeling well, therefore not on the pc as much these past few days.

 

Chad hit it right on the head about changing U.S. healthcare. I suppose that goes with many things in the country, as well. The only way things will change for the better is if we wear the Constitution on our foreheads, take the bull by the horns (repubs and democrats), and start taking back what is ours - "By the people, for the people . . . "

 

I can't say Norway's healthcare is the best, since I haven't experienced ones from other countrys, but it certainly beats the U.S. - hands down. Whether you make 10,000 a year or 1,000,000 a year, you will not go broke for making a dr. visit, hospital visit, or from prescriptions. I've had 5 knee surgeries over the past 5 years, and combining fuel to the hospital, the surgeries, stay and prescriptions, I'm out around $200. That's in 5 years - not one day.

 

Healthcare is one of the many reasons I left the U.S. - if this makes me unpatritotic, then so be it. I worked my fingers to the bone, gave everything I had, and the government stripped me bare. I wasn't about to let them break me. I suppose I could spew philospophy, because I've had the schooling. You want my view and calculations on politics and economics, I can give you that as well. No diplomatic or kind answer will convey my disgust for your point of view and disrespect of your fellow man, Megistias, then turn around and say you've experienced the same hardships that we have. You sir, are no better than the fundamentalists and anti-separationsists or politicians that trash and - for no better word - SHIT on this planet and the rest of us humans.

 

*My 2 Kroner,

 

OT

[ped]

Well, I suppose since I was the one that started this thread, I should chime in as a - ahem - "foreigner". Sorry, but speaking of healthcare, I've not been feeling well, therefore not on the pc as much these past few days.

 

Chad hit it right on the head about changing U.S. healthcare. I suppose that goes with many things in the country, as well. The only way things will change for the better is if we wear the Constitution on our foreheads, take the bull by the horns (repubs and democrats), and start taking back what is ours - "By the people, for the people . . . "

 

I can't say Norway's healthcare is the best, since I haven't experienced ones from other countrys, but it certainly beats the U.S. - hands down. Whether you make 10,000 a year or 1,000,000 a year, you will not go broke for making a dr. visit, hospital visit, or from prescriptions. I've had 5 knee surgeries over the past 5 years, and combining fuel to the hospital, the surgeries, stay and prescriptions, I'm out around $200. That's in 5 years - not one day.

 

Healthcare is one of the many reasons I left the U.S. - if this makes me unpatritotic, then so be it. I worked my fingers to the bone, gave everything I had, and the government stripped me bare. I wasn't about to let them break me. I suppose I could spew philospophy, because I've had the schooling. You want my view and calculations on politics and economics, I can give you that as well. No diplomatic or kind answer will convey my disgust for your point of view and disrespect of your fellow man, Megistias, then turn around and say you've experienced the same hardships that we have. You sir, are no better than the fundamentalists and anti-separationsists or politicians that trash and - for no better word - SHIT on this planet and the rest of us humans.

 

*My 2 Kroner,

 

OT

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

im mean........THANK YOU!

[Amethyst]

I have finally come to terms, after almost a decade of supporting the right wing and the Republican party, that both parties are two edges of the same vile sword.

 

Almond to that!

 

The time is ripe for a third party candidate to win in 08, IMHO. Maybe even a dark horse write-in candidate.

 

 

 

My response: NONE! Who says we have to copy anyone's model? Why can't we have an open public debate in America on the state of healthcare and come up with a realistic solution, drawing from what we consider the best aspects of other nation's healthcare systems, while leaving out the worst. And maybe add in a little American ingenuity and uniqueness to boot. That's my ideal scenario. There is no need to import any one system.

 

Almond to that, too.

[godlessgrrl]

 

Seriously, though, has there EVER, in the known history of the World, EVER been any positive advances made in society WITHOUT violence/warfare? I'm hard pressed to think of any. Even the vaunted quest for peace is shamefully accompanied by violence.

 

Yes, oddly enough.

 

A few discoveries made without violence include:

 

--agriculture

--animal domestication

--pottery

--the wheel

--textiles

--harnessing of fire

--the alphabet

--early religion

--egalitarian models of society

--cooking

--beer!

 

I've been doing a lot of reading lately on the possibility that civilization actually got its start in the Stone Age, not later on. And there was plenty of stuff that got humanity off the ground back then. The implications are that the social model we know now - based on warfare and violence - was not actually how we got started, it just sort of ended up that way.

 

I'll post sources if anybody's interested; in the meantime I'll shut up and avoid further thread hijack.

[Amethyst]

A few discoveries made without violence include:

 

--agriculture

--animal domestication

--pottery

--the wheel

--textiles

--harnessing of fire

--the alphabet

--early religion

--egalitarian models of society

--cooking

--beer!

 

What about art, poetry, literature, music, etc.? Surely not all early art or songs came from war.

[godlessgrrl]

What about art, poetry, literature, music, etc.? Surely not all early art or songs came from war.

 

True - that list was just what I could come up with off the top of my head.

 

Oh yeah, though, here's a few others...

 

--city planning (see Catal Huyuk in Anatolia)

--public sanitation

--metalworking

--woodworking

[Taphophilia]

The war: We should not be there. We had no reason to be there. We need to get out.

$180,000,000.00 plus would have fixed a lot of our problems. Now our childrens, children are going to have to pay off this debt.

 

We were already there. You were aware of that I hope. We've been there since the first Gulf war in '81.

 

Do you think it's a coincidence that both Bushes attacked Iraq?

 

 

Healthcare: In order to afford it you have to be either poor, very wealthy or extremely lucky to have good heathcare coverage. Anything else is a struggle to pay for it.

 

So you're bitching that the poor get good healthcare ? If you take it from them it might be cheaper for you. Is that an option ?

 

How in the world did you get that I was bitching about the poor in this statement? I am poor. I am a divorced, single working mother. Medicaid IS my health insurance and it's not good healthcare but I can afford it. I have a spend down.

 

Jobs: When Clinton was president, I was a fundy and hated him. However, when he was president I had my pick of $30K a year jobs. Bush becomes president, my company downsizes I lose my job. I have trouble finding a job because I am competing with people with Masters degrees who are stepping down to take any work they can get. One company, where I used to live, expanded and had 50 job openings, over 2000 people applied.

 

Then a Masters degree is the new standard. Move, get a Masters degree, of find another line of work.

 

I said people with Master's degrees were stepping down to take lower jobs.

 

However, one company let me go after a week because my allergies were acting up. I had a hard time talking on the phone without coughing, so they let me go.

 

What did you expect them to do ? You couldn't do your job. The problem was you and your allergies, not the President or an evil corporation.

 

How do you know if I could preform the job or not? How do you know how much of the job I did without talking on the phone? The point I was trying to make is that there are so many people out of work that not being about to do 5% of the job temporarily was enough to get me replaced. I'm not bitching. I'm stating fact.

 

Look, Taph, I like you (and the others I'm respondng to) - your posts are good reading, but the problem I'm seeing is your allergies, not a hopeless business world.

[ped]

from what i gather when hundreds of thousands maybe millions of people are out of a job or in shit jobs, the're all supposed to pick up and move. then probably move again and again. not everyone can be expected to pick up and move to a blue state especially when they dont make enough to gather the gas money up.

[Amethyst]

--public sanitation

 

Ah, yes, the toilet! Whatever would we do without it?

[Chad3232132]

--public sanitation

 

Ah, yes, the toilet! Whatever would we do without it?

 

Just curious... but what did people use before toilet paper came about? Did they use twigs and leaves or something?

[Taphophilia]

 

Just curious... but what did people use before toilet paper came about? Did they use twigs and leaves or something?

 

I think that in the days of outhouses they used pages of the Sears catalog or newspager. In a town that I used to live in some of the older houses still had an outhouse in the backyard, though the houses had long converted indoor plumbing to them and the outhouse had long been abandoned. I could not imagine having to get up in the middle of cold winter night, walk 50 feet in 20 below zero weather to use an outhouse.

 

Taph