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So I was re-reading the story of adam and eve for some artistic inspiration. I was reminded of an epiphany that I had completely forgotten about.

 

When adam and eve were created that had no knowledge of good and evil. That is what the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil provided. So before they had eaten the fruit they had no concept of what was good and bad. This presents several problems

 

1. They did not know what deception was.

2. They did not know if they disobeying god was bad

3. God punished Adam and Eve for doing something wrong but they didn't know it was wrong.

 

The obvious counter to this argument is that god said don't eat from this fruit or surely you will die. So they knew the fruit could kill them. However this doesn't mean that they should be punished for eating it. If the fruit was truly poison and would kill them there is no need for god to punish them.

 

the next argument would be that the fruit killed them by taking them out of the garden of eden where they would live forever. This is not the case though they had not eaten of the tree of life there is no guarantee they would live forever in fact. Genesis 3:22 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” suggests that they were not meant to live forever. On a side note who is god talking to in this line Like one of us? yet more evidence of a pantheon of gods in the old testament "wink" "wink"

 

So we established that Adam and eve were mortal before the fall and they were mortal after the fall does not change this. The fruit did not kill them so the serpent did not lie, God did. In fact the serpent told them the truth and pulled a Prometheus on The Lord. It is obvious here that man was never supposed to be companions for god in fact we are his slaves. Genesis 2:15 "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it." the true hero of the story here was the serpent he martyred himself to free adam and eve from bondage. His plan failed and was unable to give them the fruit from the tree of life where they could become immortal and challenge the gods. This also establishes why god has chosen people and approves of slavery the jews of the old testament were meant to be the headmasters of the plantation of the earth. this is not a story of the fall or original sin this is the story of freedom!!!!!!!!!!! extra exclamation marks for brave heart theme.

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So I was re-reading the story of adam and eve for some artistic inspiration. I was reminded of an epiphany that I had completely forgotten about.   When adam and eve were created that had no knowled

Heavenese, I'll admit I haven't read all of your responses in this thread. To be honest I have a hard time reading long posts by believers. Just skimming through your posts I can see that you are tryi

Biblegod isn't 100% good all the time. He even says this. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."  Is 45:7   Thus doeth the Lord of th

Anyways I was getting ready to do some mythological inspired stories with a biblical origin. Small short stories in a graphic novella or animation haven't quite decided just yet =D

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So I was re-reading the story of adam and eve for some artistic inspiration. I was reminded of an epiphany that I had completely forgotten about.

 

When adam and eve were created that had no knowledge of good and evil. That is what the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil provided. So before they had eaten the fruit they had no concept of what was good and bad. This presents several problems

 

1. They did not know what deception was.

2. They did not know if they disobeying god was bad

3. God punished Adam and Eve for doing something wrong but they didn't know it was wrong.

 

The obvious counter to this argument is that god said don't eat from this fruit or surely you will die. So they knew the fruit could kill them. However this doesn't mean that they should be punished for eating it. If the fruit was truly poison and would kill them there is no need for god to punish them.

 

the next argument would be that the fruit killed them by taking them out of the garden of eden where they would live forever. This is not the case though they had not eaten of the tree of life there is no guarantee they would live forever in fact. Genesis 3:22 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” suggests that they were not meant to live forever. On a side note who is god talking to in this line Like one of us? yet more evidence of a pantheon of gods in the old testament "wink" "wink"

 

So we established that Adam and eve were mortal before the fall and they were mortal after the fall does not change this. The fruit did not kill them so the serpent did not lie, God did. In fact the serpent told them the truth and pulled a Prometheus on The Lord. It is obvious here that man was never supposed to be companions for god in fact we are his slaves. Genesis 2:15 "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it." the true hero of the story here was the serpent he martyred himself to free adam and eve from bondage. His plan failed and was unable to give them the fruit from the tree of life where they could become immortal and challenge the gods. This also establishes why god has chosen people and approves of slavery the jews of the old testament were meant to be the headmasters of the plantation of the earth. this is not a story of the fall or original sin this is the story of freedom!!!!!!!!!!! extra exclamation marks for brave heart theme.

You are dealing with fiction.  A fiction with at least one internal inconsistency/contradiction, as you have identified.

 

That's all it is.

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well I get that sdelsolray its still just another theological arrow I can put in a quiver of arguments when confronted with the irrationality of religious zealots who believe in this stuff. I am still learning to defend myself and applying reason. Just haven't really heard this as an argument before I am sure I am not the first to understand this but to me it seems to be a pretty solid case against god's goodness that moral objectivists claim.

 

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So I was re-reading the story of adam and eve for some artistic inspiration. I was reminded of an epiphany that I had completely forgotten about.

 

When adam and eve were created that had no knowledge of good and evil. That is what the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil provided. So before they had eaten the fruit they had no concept of what was good and bad. This presents several problems

 

1. They did not know what deception was.

2. They did not know if they disobeying god was bad

3. God punished Adam and Eve for doing something wrong but they didn't know it was wrong.

 

The obvious counter to this argument is that god said don't eat from this fruit or surely you will die. So they knew the fruit could kill them. However this doesn't mean that they should be punished for eating it. If the fruit was truly poison and would kill them there is no need for god to punish them.

 

the next argument would be that the fruit killed them by taking them out of the garden of eden where they would live forever. This is not the case though they had not eaten of the tree of life there is no guarantee they would live forever in fact. Genesis 3:22 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” suggests that they were not meant to live forever. On a side note who is god talking to in this line Like one of us? yet more evidence of a pantheon of gods in the old testament "wink" "wink"

 

So we established that Adam and eve were mortal before the fall and they were mortal after the fall does not change this. The fruit did not kill them so the serpent did not lie, God did. In fact the serpent told them the truth and pulled a Prometheus on The Lord. It is obvious here that man was never supposed to be companions for god in fact we are his slaves. Genesis 2:15 "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it." the true hero of the story here was the serpent he martyred himself to free adam and eve from bondage. His plan failed and was unable to give them the fruit from the tree of life where they could become immortal and challenge the gods. This also establishes why god has chosen people and approves of slavery the jews of the old testament were meant to be the headmasters of the plantation of the earth. this is not a story of the fall or original sin this is the story of freedom!!!!!!!!!!! extra exclamation marks for brave heart theme.

You are dealing with fiction.  A fiction with at least one internal inconsistency/contradiction, as you have identified.

 

That's all it is.

 

Unfortunately, we have to give it some level of seriousness and keep on debunking it because there are people out there who believe it.

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I never thought of it that way! Yet another comtradiction to add to my list

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I never thought of it that way! Yet another comtradiction to add to my list

Likewise.

 

Personally, I like the Deist's take on Genesis http://deism.com/adamandeve.htm

 

LoL I loved that so true so very true. When I was a Christian to me it always seemed like what god was doing was just wrong somehow. when I started to de-convert I started wondering if the roles were switched >.<

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Interesting thoughts. And there is also the problem of gods omniscient. He knows that they are going to "fail" his little test and still punishes them for that.

Like putting candy infront of hungry children, going away and punishing them for eating it. ^^

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My favorite part is that quote at the end of the story when Adam and Eve are banished from the garden: Genesis 3:22 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

 

So they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but if Adam had done a juke-move, 360 spin around those angels and gotten to the tree of life, the whole history of original sin, hell, damnation, and the need for Jesus' death and resurrection could have been avoided??? Talk about a loophole in the infinite "justice of god!"   I mean, god said it was true, so it must be true!

 

Which comes back to the fact that according to the bible god COULD HAVE chosen another way to redemption (Of course, assuming he was real).  Like a truly good and decent father, he could have said to his kids, "Hey, you made a mistake, but I'm the all-powerful creator who can do anything, so I'm gonna forgive you.  If you are sorry, go over there and have an apple from the tree of life and everything will be good again and we can walk together in the garden in the cool of the day, enjoying each other's presence forever."  

 

But no, this asshole locked them out of the garden, cursed them to a life of pain, toil, and suffering for their truly innocent mistake.  Then he decided to murder all living creatures a few short chapters later, and finally create a hell to torture all humanity to doesn't worship him properly (or just a place for those who also never had the chance to hear about him).  What a good father!  God truly is love!

 

Of course it's all just a conglomeration of fables and metaphors ancient people made to explain why we have pain in childbirth and a scapegoat to bitch about after a hard day's work (i.e. women!).  

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That Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil, right from wrong before eating the fruit, does make an interesting case. I don't think I've heard any one argue that point before. Good catch. And not to mention that this all goes down in Genesis 2 which is the older of the two creation accounts.

 

So it stems to wonder how is sin even sin if the people didn't understand the concept of sin being something wrong in the first place? 

 

Why would the Elohim pantheon of "Gods" order two people with no concept of right or wrong NOT to do something and then punish them for making, well, the wrong choice and label that wrong choice sin? 

 

These pantheon Gods were not all knowing at this point, just for the record, because at this point the evolved concept of a monotheistic universal YHWH with all of his attributes had not yet evolved. The content of Genesis is much earlier than the all-knowing, ever-present, and all-powerful YHWH. That's one mistake that we tend to make when looking back at Genesis from the perspective of this day and age and as former Christians who assume that sort of thing into the pages of Genesis. So the all-knowing God who knows the future and yet created Adam and Eve anyways knowing that they would sin suffer's a problem when the technicalities of the evolving theology of monotheism is applied to that reasoning. 

 

You have God (El Elyon?) walking around in the garden looking for Adam and Eve NOT already knowing where they were and asking them what they had done, giving the impression that the God didn't already know what they had done. There's evidence of the God and Gods not knowing about certain things. There was no plan of salvation at this point either. All of that stuff had to come as later editions to the myth in order to try and give greater depth as people pondered the myths generations later. There was no fall of Lucifer from heaven either, that had to be added later as well. The serpent is just a joe average trickster type character similar to all of the other serpent mythology from around the ancient world. They all had it. The native Americans even had it. So that's something to steer clear of when arguing with apologists even though they don't have the ability to call you on it. To call you on it they would have to admit that the Bible started out polytheistic and there was no evolved concept of YHWH as an all-knowing supreme deity, which, is to shoot themselves in the foot. 

 

The apologists will usually answer that God allowed them to sin knowing in advance that they would sin because he gives freewill. And then more arguments will stem from there about freewill and whether or not it was ever freewill to begin with if there was no other possible outcome than sin. It's a vicious cycle which is unflattering to apologists any which way you spin it. However, the above observation about the evolution of monotheism prohibits the vicious cycle. If they want freewill then they can only get it by accepting that the "Gods" of Genesis were not all-knowing and didn't know that Adam and Eve would sin in advance of it happening. All of the stupidity then comes into focus. These "Gods" were, quite literally, complete dumbasses in certain ways. 

 

Why?

 

Well because the old "Gods" are the projections of dumb ass ancient human beings trying to explain the world and contradicting themselves and others who wrote before them over and over again in the process.

 

The result is the Bible...

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So I was re-reading the story of adam and eve for some artistic inspiration. I was reminded of an epiphany that I had completely forgotten about.

 

When adam and eve were created that had no knowledge of good and evil. That is what the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil provided. So before they had eaten the fruit they had no concept of what was good and bad. This presents several problems

 

1. They did not know what deception was.

2. They did not know if they disobeying god was bad

3. God punished Adam and Eve for doing something wrong but they didn't know it was wrong.

 

The obvious counter to this argument is that god said don't eat from this fruit or surely you will die. So they knew the fruit could kill them. However this doesn't mean that they should be punished for eating it. If the fruit was truly poison and would kill them there is no need for god to punish them.

 

the next argument would be that the fruit killed them by taking them out of the garden of eden where they would live forever. This is not the case though they had not eaten of the tree of life there is no guarantee they would live forever in fact. Genesis 3:22 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” suggests that they were not meant to live forever. On a side note who is god talking to in this line Like one of us? yet more evidence of a pantheon of gods in the old testament "wink" "wink"

 

So we established that Adam and eve were mortal before the fall and they were mortal after the fall does not change this. The fruit did not kill them so the serpent did not lie, God did. In fact the serpent told them the truth and pulled a Prometheus on The Lord. It is obvious here that man was never supposed to be companions for god in fact we are his slaves. Genesis 2:15 "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it." the true hero of the story here was the serpent he martyred himself to free adam and eve from bondage. His plan failed and was unable to give them the fruit from the tree of life where they could become immortal and challenge the gods. This also establishes why god has chosen people and approves of slavery the jews of the old testament were meant to be the headmasters of the plantation of the earth. this is not a story of the fall or original sin this is the story of freedom!!!!!!!!!!! extra exclamation marks for brave heart theme.

 

 

Hi!  I'm new here and still a Christian.  I would like to have some discussion here on your points.

 

 

When Adam and Eve were created, they had knowledge.  They were God conscience, or conscience of their relationship with God.  No, they didn't have knowledge of good and evil, but anything going against God would have been considered evil to them.  A lot of times we look at those words "good and evil" in an absolute sense.  That before Adam and Eve ate of this tree, they didn't have no concept of right or wrong.  Yet what it really means is having your own sense judgement about things.  Determining for yourself whether something is good or bad.  So Adam's conscience was on God before the eating of that tree, and the things God spoke was good to him.  That was why God punished Adam and Eve for eating of the tree, because they went against that original conscience.

 

 

 

To your next point concerning Adam and Eve weren't meant to live forever, you have to realize God's statements about not having them eat from the tree of life came after the incident here.  Before hand, they were free to eat of this tree, as God stated they could freely eat of any tree in the garden except the one of the knowledge of good and evil.  So why does God not want them to eat of this tree now?  Well, here's my opinion on it.  Whatever state Adam and Eve were in, once they eat of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Now with them being corrupt, God didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life to remain corrupt forever.  If they did, they could never be in God's presence again.  So those are my thoughts based on what we have in the story.  They could have certainly eat from the Tree of Life before the incident, but God's words indicate they never ate from this tree before.  The only reason for not wanting them to eat and live forever now, is because they would remain as they are forever.

 

 

I disagree they were mortal before the fall.  What we have from the story doesn't indicate they were.  For one, anything dealing with death only applied if they ate from the tree they weren't supposed to eat from.  So if they never ate of this tree, death wouldn't have come.  So this is also why I speculate whatever state they were in, once they ate of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Adam and Eve chose the wrong tree.cool.png

 

 

Finally, when God said Adam and Eve would die in the day they ate of this tree, did He mean they would fall down dead?  I understand completely why it should be viewed this way.  Or better yet, I understand why any attempt to try to find a deeper meaning to what God was saying is seen as a copout.  So I won't explain what I think here unless you want me to.

 

 

I do have another theory surrounding this story as well, and I'll share it if you want me to.

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Before hand, they were free to eat of this tree, as God stated they could freely eat of any tree in the garden except the one of the knowledge of good and evil.  So why does God not want them to eat of this tree now?  Well, here's my opinion on it.  Whatever state Adam and Eve were in, once they eat of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Now with them being corrupt, God didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life to remain corrupt forever.  If they did, they could never be in God's presence again.  So those are my thoughts based on what we have in the story.  They could have certainly eat from the Tree of Life before the incident, but God's words indicate they never ate from this tree before.  The only reason for not wanting them to eat and live forever now, is because they would remain as they are forever.

 

There is still a problem here. The tree they were not to eat from only gave them a sense of right and wrong, not an overwhelming desire, that they could not resist, to do wrong. Their god never mentioned anything before hand about, "If you eat from this tree, I will punish you both unfairly, so that the gullible woman, who I made gullible in the first place, would receive the worst punishment for being gullible enough to listen to the snake. I will curse every human after you so that they will all die and they will all be born with an irresistible desire to do evil." Clearly their god did not let them "read the fine print on the contract" so he is equally as corrupt as Adam and Eve became, which he forced them to become.

 

What happened was El became upset because the humans in the story learned things that only El and the other gods were supposed to know, so he forced Adam and Eve to become corrupted because they "knew too much".

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Hi!  I'm new here and still a Christian.  I would like to have some discussion here on your points.

 

 

When Adam and Eve were created, they had knowledge.  They were God conscience, or conscience of their relationship with God.  No, they didn't have knowledge of good and evil, but anything going against God would have been considered evil to them.  A lot of times we look at those words "good and evil" in an absolute sense.  That before Adam and Eve ate of this tree, they didn't have no concept of right or wrong.  Yet what it really means is having your own sense judgement about things.  Determining for yourself whether something is good or bad.  So Adam's conscience was on God before the eating of that tree, and the things God spoke was good to him.  That was why God punished Adam and Eve for eating of the tree, because they went against that original conscience.

 

 

 

To your next point concerning Adam and Eve weren't meant to live forever, you have to realize God's statements about not having them eat from the tree of life came after the incident here.  Before hand, they were free to eat of this tree, as God stated they could freely eat of any tree in the garden except the one of the knowledge of good and evil.  So why does God not want them to eat of this tree now?  Well, here's my opinion on it.  Whatever state Adam and Eve were in, once they eat of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Now with them being corrupt, God didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life to remain corrupt forever.  If they did, they could never be in God's presence again.  So those are my thoughts based on what we have in the story.  They could have certainly eat from the Tree of Life before the incident, but God's words indicate they never ate from this tree before.  The only reason for not wanting them to eat and live forever now, is because they would remain as they are forever.

 

 

I disagree they were mortal before the fall.  What we have from the story doesn't indicate they were.  For one, anything dealing with death only applied if they ate from the tree they weren't supposed to eat from.  So if they never ate of this tree, death wouldn't have come.  So this is also why I speculate whatever state they were in, once they ate of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Adam and Eve chose the wrong tree.cool.png

 

 

Finally, when God said Adam and Eve would die in the day they ate of this tree, did He mean they would fall down dead?  I understand completely why it should be viewed this way.  Or better yet, I understand why any attempt to try to find a deeper meaning to what God was saying is seen as a copout.  So I won't explain what I think here unless you want me to.

 

 

I do have another theory surrounding this story as well, and I'll share it if you want me to.

 

 

So you take this story literally as if it mentions a real event?

 

You are quite right about the tree of life.  The Children of El did not care about that until after the forbidden fruit had already been eaten.  However it is unfair to punish somebody for making a moral call when they are ignorant of good and evil.  In this story the Children of El make no effort to be fair nor show justice.  For example they would leave Adam and Eve's grandchildren to be born of incest and they allow the additional generations to be inbred.

 

You can't find a deeper meaning to this story unless you can find it's original form.  We lack that evidence.  We can see hints at the original but without knowing what was changed we can't tell what the editor was really doing.  That is to say we can't be sure which political or religious group the original composer supported.

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Before hand, they were free to eat of this tree, as God stated they could freely eat of any tree in the garden except the one of the knowledge of good and evil.  So why does God not want them to eat of this tree now?  Well, here's my opinion on it.  Whatever state Adam and Eve were in, once they eat of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Now with them being corrupt, God didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life to remain corrupt forever.  If they did, they could never be in God's presence again.  So those are my thoughts based on what we have in the story.  They could have certainly eat from the Tree of Life before the incident, but God's words indicate they never ate from this tree before.  The only reason for not wanting them to eat and live forever now, is because they would remain as they are forever.

 

There is still a problem here. The tree they were not to eat from only gave them a sense of right and wrong, not an overwhelming desire, that they could not resist, to do wrong. Their god never mentioned anything before hand about, "If you eat from this tree, I will punish you both unfairly, so that the gullible woman, who I made gullible in the first place, would receive the worst punishment for being gullible enough to listen to the snake. I will curse every human after you so that they will all die and they will all be born with an irresistible desire to do evil." Clearly their god did not let them "read the fine print on the contract" so he is equally as corrupt as Adam and Eve became, which he forced them to become.

 

What happened was El became upset because the humans in the story learned things that only El and the other gods were supposed to know, so he forced Adam and Eve to become corrupted because they "knew too much".

 

 

 

They knew what God said, and they knew the consequences.  The punishments could have been the result of the blaming game they played afterward, and or their attempt to hide themselves from God.  Adam didn't just blame the woman, he also blamed God as well.

 

Another way of looking at it could be, those punishments were actually God's mercy on them.  If God really did mean they would fall down dead after they ate of this tree, the punishments He gave them instead was His mercy on them.  For instance if we had a contract, and you broke that contract, I'm free to hold you accountable on that thing.  Yet I don't have to, and I could be lenient in how I take action against you.  Eve received the promise that her seed would crush the serpent's head, giving her (and all of mankind if you believe this is a reference to Jesus) redeemption.  So the punishments could have actually been God's leniency.

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Hi!  I'm new here and still a Christian.  I would like to have some discussion here on your points.

 

 

When Adam and Eve were created, they had knowledge.  They were God conscience, or conscience of their relationship with God.  No, they didn't have knowledge of good and evil, but anything going against God would have been considered evil to them.  A lot of times we look at those words "good and evil" in an absolute sense.  That before Adam and Eve ate of this tree, they didn't have no concept of right or wrong.  Yet what it really means is having your own sense judgement about things.  Determining for yourself whether something is good or bad.  So Adam's conscience was on God before the eating of that tree, and the things God spoke was good to him.  That was why God punished Adam and Eve for eating of the tree, because they went against that original conscience.

 

 

 

To your next point concerning Adam and Eve weren't meant to live forever, you have to realize God's statements about not having them eat from the tree of life came after the incident here.  Before hand, they were free to eat of this tree, as God stated they could freely eat of any tree in the garden except the one of the knowledge of good and evil.  So why does God not want them to eat of this tree now?  Well, here's my opinion on it.  Whatever state Adam and Eve were in, once they eat of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Now with them being corrupt, God didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life to remain corrupt forever.  If they did, they could never be in God's presence again.  So those are my thoughts based on what we have in the story.  They could have certainly eat from the Tree of Life before the incident, but God's words indicate they never ate from this tree before.  The only reason for not wanting them to eat and live forever now, is because they would remain as they are forever.

 

 

I disagree they were mortal before the fall.  What we have from the story doesn't indicate they were.  For one, anything dealing with death only applied if they ate from the tree they weren't supposed to eat from.  So if they never ate of this tree, death wouldn't have come.  So this is also why I speculate whatever state they were in, once they ate of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Adam and Eve chose the wrong tree.cool.png

 

 

Finally, when God said Adam and Eve would die in the day they ate of this tree, did He mean they would fall down dead?  I understand completely why it should be viewed this way.  Or better yet, I understand why any attempt to try to find a deeper meaning to what God was saying is seen as a copout.  So I won't explain what I think here unless you want me to.

 

 

I do have another theory surrounding this story as well, and I'll share it if you want me to.

 

 

So you take this story literally as if it mentions a real event?

 

You are quite right about the tree of life.  The Children of El did not care about that until after the forbidden fruit had already been eaten.  However it is unfair to punish somebody for making a moral call when they are ignorant of good and evil.  In this story the Children of El make no effort to be fair nor show justice.  For example they would leave Adam and Eve's grandchildren to be born of incest and they allow the additional generations to be inbred.

 

You can't find a deeper meaning to this story unless you can find it's original form.  We lack that evidence.  We can see hints at the original but without knowing what was changed we can't tell what the editor was really doing.  That is to say we can't be sure which political or religious group the original composer supported.

 

 

 

They did have knowledge of God, and the things He said.  To them, that was good, and to go against it was bad.  After that, they made their own judgments.  Later on we see this for being one of the reasons the Law was needed.  I agree we don't have any original copies of Genesis.  Of course I know about the documentary hypothesis and all those things as well.  Those things might be getting more detailed and may go off topic. 

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Before hand, they were free to eat of this tree, as God stated they could freely eat of any tree in the garden except the one of the knowledge of good and evil.  So why does God not want them to eat of this tree now?  Well, here's my opinion on it.  Whatever state Adam and Eve were in, once they eat of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Now with them being corrupt, God didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life to remain corrupt forever.  If they did, they could never be in God's presence again.  So those are my thoughts based on what we have in the story.  They could have certainly eat from the Tree of Life before the incident, but God's words indicate they never ate from this tree before.  The only reason for not wanting them to eat and live forever now, is because they would remain as they are forever.

 

There is still a problem here. The tree they were not to eat from only gave them a sense of right and wrong, not an overwhelming desire, that they could not resist, to do wrong. Their god never mentioned anything before hand about, "If you eat from this tree, I will punish you both unfairly, so that the gullible woman, who I made gullible in the first place, would receive the worst punishment for being gullible enough to listen to the snake. I will curse every human after you so that they will all die and they will all be born with an irresistible desire to do evil." Clearly their god did not let them "read the fine print on the contract" so he is equally as corrupt as Adam and Eve became, which he forced them to become.

 

What happened was El became upset because the humans in the story learned things that only El and the other gods were supposed to know, so he forced Adam and Eve to become corrupted because they "knew too much".

 

 

 

They knew what God said, and they knew the consequences.  The punishments could have been the result of the blaming game they played afterward, and or their attempt to hide themselves from God.  Adam didn't just blame the woman, he also blamed God as well.

 

Another way of looking at it could be, those punishments were actually God's mercy on them.  If God really did mean they would fall down dead after they ate of this tree, the punishments He gave them instead was His mercy on them.  For instance if we had a contract, and you broke that contract, I'm free to hold you accountable on that thing.  Yet I don't have to, and I could be lenient in how I take action against you.  Eve received the promise that her seed would crush the serpent's head, giving her (and all of mankind if you believe this is a reference to Jesus) redeemption.  So the punishments could have actually been God's leniency.

 

If he doesnt want the fruits to be eaten why didnt he plant the tree somewhere else?Why does he need this tree anyway, if he has the knowledge already? The whole thing looks like a test to me. A cruel trap if you believe that god is all-knowing.

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Before hand, they were free to eat of this tree, as God stated they could freely eat of any tree in the garden except the one of the knowledge of good and evil.  So why does God not want them to eat of this tree now?  Well, here's my opinion on it.  Whatever state Adam and Eve were in, once they eat of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Now with them being corrupt, God didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life to remain corrupt forever.  If they did, they could never be in God's presence again.  So those are my thoughts based on what we have in the story.  They could have certainly eat from the Tree of Life before the incident, but God's words indicate they never ate from this tree before.  The only reason for not wanting them to eat and live forever now, is because they would remain as they are forever.

 

There is still a problem here. The tree they were not to eat from only gave them a sense of right and wrong, not an overwhelming desire, that they could not resist, to do wrong. Their god never mentioned anything before hand about, "If you eat from this tree, I will punish you both unfairly, so that the gullible woman, who I made gullible in the first place, would receive the worst punishment for being gullible enough to listen to the snake. I will curse every human after you so that they will all die and they will all be born with an irresistible desire to do evil." Clearly their god did not let them "read the fine print on the contract" so he is equally as corrupt as Adam and Eve became, which he forced them to become.

 

What happened was El became upset because the humans in the story learned things that only El and the other gods were supposed to know, so he forced Adam and Eve to become corrupted because they "knew too much".

 

 

 

They knew what God said, and they knew the consequences.  The punishments could have been the result of the blaming game they played afterward, and or their attempt to hide themselves from God.  Adam didn't just blame the woman, he also blamed God as well.

 

Another way of looking at it could be, those punishments were actually God's mercy on them.  If God really did mean they would fall down dead after they ate of this tree, the punishments He gave them instead was His mercy on them.  For instance if we had a contract, and you broke that contract, I'm free to hold you accountable on that thing.  Yet I don't have to, and I could be lenient in how I take action against you.  Eve received the promise that her seed would crush the serpent's head, giving her (and all of mankind if you believe this is a reference to Jesus) redeemption.  So the punishments could have actually been God's leniency.

 

If he doesnt want the fruits to be eaten why didnt he plant the tree somewhere else?Why does he need this tree anyway, if he has the knowledge already? The whole thing looks like a test to me. A cruel trap if you believe that god is all-knowing.

 

 

 

It wasn't so much a test, it was an exercise.  I'm sure you heard all about how God gave man free will.  Yet it's hard to say that if God already knows what's going to happen.  That's just it however, God did not know Adam and Eve would disobey His command, precisely because man had free will.

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Before hand, they were free to eat of this tree, as God stated they could freely eat of any tree in the garden except the one of the knowledge of good and evil.  So why does God not want them to eat of this tree now?  Well, here's my opinion on it.  Whatever state Adam and Eve were in, once they eat of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Now with them being corrupt, God didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life to remain corrupt forever.  If they did, they could never be in God's presence again.  So those are my thoughts based on what we have in the story.  They could have certainly eat from the Tree of Life before the incident, but God's words indicate they never ate from this tree before.  The only reason for not wanting them to eat and live forever now, is because they would remain as they are forever.

 

There is still a problem here. The tree they were not to eat from only gave them a sense of right and wrong, not an overwhelming desire, that they could not resist, to do wrong. Their god never mentioned anything before hand about, "If you eat from this tree, I will punish you both unfairly, so that the gullible woman, who I made gullible in the first place, would receive the worst punishment for being gullible enough to listen to the snake. I will curse every human after you so that they will all die and they will all be born with an irresistible desire to do evil." Clearly their god did not let them "read the fine print on the contract" so he is equally as corrupt as Adam and Eve became, which he forced them to become.

 

What happened was El became upset because the humans in the story learned things that only El and the other gods were supposed to know, so he forced Adam and Eve to become corrupted because they "knew too much".

 

 

 

They knew what God said, and they knew the consequences.  The punishments could have been the result of the blaming game they played afterward, and or their attempt to hide themselves from God.  Adam didn't just blame the woman, he also blamed God as well.

 

Another way of looking at it could be, those punishments were actually God's mercy on them.  If God really did mean they would fall down dead after they ate of this tree, the punishments He gave them instead was His mercy on them.  For instance if we had a contract, and you broke that contract, I'm free to hold you accountable on that thing.  Yet I don't have to, and I could be lenient in how I take action against you.  Eve received the promise that her seed would crush the serpent's head, giving her (and all of mankind if you believe this is a reference to Jesus) redeemption.  So the punishments could have actually been God's leniency.

 

 

So cursing all of humanity was mercy? If Adam and Eve just fell over dead, that would have been mercy. Instead, their god holds all humans accountable for their actions. Because of them, war, disease, death, natural disasters, and every other bad thing that happens are forced upon all humans, not just Adam and Eve. Normally, justice is when people who commit a crime pay for their own crimes and face the consequences. Injustice is when people innocent of the crime are also punished for it. El takes it a whole step further and forces all humans to be corrupt, against their will, because of Adam and Eve's disobedience.

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They knew what God said, and they knew the consequences.  The punishments could have been the result of the blaming game they played afterward, and or their attempt to hide themselves from God.  Adam didn't just blame the woman, he also blamed God as well.

 

Another way of looking at it could be, those punishments were actually God's mercy on them.  If God really did mean they would fall down dead after they ate of this tree, the punishments He gave them instead was His mercy on them.  For instance if we had a contract, and you broke that contract, I'm free to hold you accountable on that thing.  Yet I don't have to, and I could be lenient in how I take action against you.  Eve received the promise that her seed would crush the serpent's head, giving her (and all of mankind if you believe this is a reference to Jesus) redeemption.  So the punishments could have actually been God's leniency.

 

 

You are right about Adam and Eve being told to not eat the Forbidden Fruit.  So this could have been a test of obedience.  However you are wrong about the humans knowing the consequences.  In the story the gods lied to the humans regarding the consequences.  As for the punishment being a response to the blaming - the gods never said "don't blame".  If it was a punishment for blaming then that is further injustice from the gods.  I take it that you do not blame all the suffering of the world on this fruit eating?  If you do then it can't be mercy because billions of innocent people suffered for what Adam and Eve did.

 

No, there is no reference to Jesus in the Garden of Eden.  Whoever told you that lied to you.  

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It wasn't so much a test, it was an exercise.  I'm sure you heard all about how God gave man free will.  Yet it's hard to say that if God already knows what's going to happen.  That's just it however, God did not know Adam and Eve would disobey His command, precisely because man had free will.

 

He gave them freewill but also made them gullible and curious. Even if he didnt know what was going to happen, he could have done a better job creating them.

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Omnipotent god( s) and a lousy first attempt at creation. Should've shook the etch- a-sketch and started over. Flood and plague and the whole convoluted self/son sacrifice could have been avoided. This way is a much better fairy tale.

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And welcome to this forum, heavenese.

.

 

Thanks, I'm happy to be here.cool.png   Most Christians are traditional, not allowing yourself to ask questions and better yet, to seek answers.  Most in depth conversations I've had were with athiests.  Perhaps I can have even deeper conversation here among ex-Christians.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Before hand, they were free to eat of this tree, as God stated they could freely eat of any tree in the garden except the one of the knowledge of good and evil.  So why does God not want them to eat of this tree now?  Well, here's my opinion on it.  Whatever state Adam and Eve were in, once they eat of the Tree of Life, they would remain in that state forever.  Now with them being corrupt, God didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life to remain corrupt forever.  If they did, they could never be in God's presence again.  So those are my thoughts based on what we have in the story.  They could have certainly eat from the Tree of Life before the incident, but God's words indicate they never ate from this tree before.  The only reason for not wanting them to eat and live forever now, is because they would remain as they are forever.

 

There is still a problem here. The tree they were not to eat from only gave them a sense of right and wrong, not an overwhelming desire, that they could not resist, to do wrong. Their god never mentioned anything before hand about, "If you eat from this tree, I will punish you both unfairly, so that the gullible woman, who I made gullible in the first place, would receive the worst punishment for being gullible enough to listen to the snake. I will curse every human after you so that they will all die and they will all be born with an irresistible desire to do evil." Clearly their god did not let them "read the fine print on the contract" so he is equally as corrupt as Adam and Eve became, which he forced them to become.

 

What happened was El became upset because the humans in the story learned things that only El and the other gods were supposed to know, so he forced Adam and Eve to become corrupted because they "knew too much".

 

 

 

They knew what God said, and they knew the consequences.  The punishments could have been the result of the blaming game they played afterward, and or their attempt to hide themselves from God.  Adam didn't just blame the woman, he also blamed God as well.

 

Another way of looking at it could be, those punishments were actually God's mercy on them.  If God really did mean they would fall down dead after they ate of this tree, the punishments He gave them instead was His mercy on them.  For instance if we had a contract, and you broke that contract, I'm free to hold you accountable on that thing.  Yet I don't have to, and I could be lenient in how I take action against you.  Eve received the promise that her seed would crush the serpent's head, giving her (and all of mankind if you believe this is a reference to Jesus) redeemption.  So the punishments could have actually been God's leniency.

 

 

So cursing all of humanity was mercy? If Adam and Eve just fell over dead, that would have been mercy. Instead, their god holds all humans accountable for their actions. Because of them, war, disease, death, natural disasters, and every other bad thing that happens are forced upon all humans, not just Adam and Eve. Normally, justice is when people who commit a crime pay for their own crimes and face the consequences. Injustice is when people innocent of the crime are also punished for it. El takes it a whole step further and forces all humans to be corrupt, against their will, because of Adam and Eve's disobedience.

 

 

 

Yes, it's because of Adam's disobedience, everything became corrupt.  Yet God made it so by one man's obedience, everything will be better than it was when Adam was perfect.  These days here we are living in, yes they're tough and filled with grief.  However, there's hope.  There's something I want to say about this, but I don't know how to say it.  As for the point that God should have let Adam and Eve die, that word means more than just falling over dead I believe.  If Adam and Eve were dealt the full punishment, not only would it mean the end of the human line, but Adam and Eve wouldn't just cease existing.  They would continue to exist, but outside of the presence of God, which would be considered great torment.  God loved them too much.  So He was merciful on them.

 

 

 

 

 

They knew what God said, and they knew the consequences.  The punishments could have been the result of the blaming game they played afterward, and or their attempt to hide themselves from God.  Adam didn't just blame the woman, he also blamed God as well.

 

Another way of looking at it could be, those punishments were actually God's mercy on them.  If God really did mean they would fall down dead after they ate of this tree, the punishments He gave them instead was His mercy on them.  For instance if we had a contract, and you broke that contract, I'm free to hold you accountable on that thing.  Yet I don't have to, and I could be lenient in how I take action against you.  Eve received the promise that her seed would crush the serpent's head, giving her (and all of mankind if you believe this is a reference to Jesus) redeemption.  So the punishments could have actually been God's leniency.

 

 

You are right about Adam and Eve being told to not eat the Forbidden Fruit.  So this could have been a test of obedience.  However you are wrong about the humans knowing the consequences.  In the story the gods lied to the humans regarding the consequences.  As for the punishment being a response to the blaming - the gods never said "don't blame".  If it was a punishment for blaming then that is further injustice from the gods.  I take it that you do not blame all the suffering of the world on this fruit eating?  If you do then it can't be mercy because billions of innocent people suffered for what Adam and Eve did.

 

No, there is no reference to Jesus in the Garden of Eden.  Whoever told you that lied to you.  

 

 

 

I don't know if God lied about the consequence.  Of course the reasons I give might be seen as a copout, and I don't blame you if you saw it that way.  Would you like me to list reasons why God wasn't lying when He said they would die once they ate of the tree?  Some Christians see Eve's seed as a reference to Jesus.  Also the animal God killed in order to clothe Adam and Eve, could be a reference the sacrificial system, ultimately referencing Jesus. (Because it was God who killed the first animal to clothe us.  That God did the first sacrifice for human's sake)

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