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Goodbye Jesus

Adam Gets My Eve


JamesG

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@Heavenese

 

2. Yeah, who would want to try to kill someone that they think is crazy? If the person in question is not dangerous, most people would just leave him be and make jokes about him. I am really not sure what else to say about 2.

 

3. I still fail to understand what is so evil about homosexuality. It doesn't result in reproduction, so what? It doesn't hurt anyone and homosexuals are in the minority, so there is no chance of humans going extinct over it. If it is just a representation of the sinful nature of humans, then that makes slightly more sense than it being immoral or evil because it doesn't result in reproduction. I guess I may never really understand why it is such an evil action. Actions like murder and adultery actually do cause harm, because it harms the victim and the betrayed spouse.

 

If it only upsets the Christian god because homosexuality wasn't the purpose for sex, then why does he allow people that actually are homosexual to be born with a sexual orientation they can't change? Why wouldn't he make sure such a thing did not exist? It is beginning to look, once again, like the Christian god has set humans up to fail. I know you have said that grace and mercy are the reason he doesn't just send us all to Hell, but isn't this kind of like designing a robot to kill and then saying, "I forgive you, robot." when it kills? He designs the humans that he knows will not be able to stop themselves from sinning, tells them they deserve to burn in flames after they died because of it, but then at the end says, "I forgive you for not being able to resist the sinful nature I forced you to be born with."

 

If God's nature is the mark that people miss when they sin, and that his "perfection" is set, then why is it that he thinks owning other humans as slaves is okay? Why does he think it is acceptable to beat them as badly as you want for disobedience, as long as they don't die? Why did he tell the Israelites to murder entire cities, but save the virgin girls to "take as wives". I'm not sure what that means to you, but I know that most people on ex-C see it as rape, or at the very least, extortion. No virgin girl is going to want to marry some guy from a tribe that slaughtered her whole entire family and village, including the infants and the children who did no wrong. When those virgin girls were taken, they were given the option of either "become the wife of some man who killed your entire village, including the innocent children, or go off into the wilderness, with no home to go to."

 

I honestly don't and can't see your god as perfect, unless of course perfection = unchanging. If your god's nature is unchanging, then the way I see it, if he exists, he is and has always been corrupt. He is and has always been sadistic. He is and has always been a hypocrite. He is and has always been a narcissist. It just looks to me like he only does good things for those who are faithful to him, because he needs people to think he loves them so that they will worship him, to massage his massive ego, while he kills or sends the rest to Hell. His "mercy" seems like a ploy to make him seem better than he really is. His "grace" also seems like a ploy.

 

4. If the only thing it takes to get into Heaven is a desire to be made righteous, then what does "righteous" mean? Does it mean always wanting to do what is right, or does it mean only wanting to do what the Christian god says is right? I hardly see the Christian god as a good moral authority. I know you disagree with me when I say this, but I hardly see him as a good example of what "righteous" should be. His morality doesn't look any different than the subjective morality of primitive barbarians. If I can't trust him because he seems like a monster and if I would like to be righteous, but not his brand of righteous, would I go to Hell? My guess is, "Yes, I likely would."

 

6. Maybe you are right, that the message does go against human nature, at least for quite a few humans, though not all. The message is that when you do something wrong, you are off the hook if you are sorry and something innocent dies in your place, even if that innocent "thing" did not understand what was happening to it. But the thing is, the message is constantly changing. In some instances, the sinner must pay for their sin and only they can, but in others, the sinner is off the hook when someone that is innocent dies in their place. Why does it change? If it changes, it's not very straight-forward. Only one of those is the easy message and it is the comfortable message. The comfortable message is, "As long as I am sorry, I get off free because someone that was innocent was sacrificed in my place."

 

7. If someone would like to dispute any of your previous responses to #7, I hope they do. However, I do still think that both Satan and Yahweh were in the wrong. Whether or not Satan was supposed to be at the meeting, they did both conspire together to destroy Job's entire life, when he never even sinned, and the only reason was so that Yahweh could prove to Satan that Job would remain faithful no matter what. Even if it turns out that Satan and Yahweh weren't friends, maybe they were just competitors and liked to play Chess with each other, using humans as pieces on the board, throwing the ones into flames that get taken off.

 

8. It looks like we may continue to disagree with point #8, though you and I do agree about some things, such as, if Adam and Eve had known the snake was lying, they would not have done what the snake told them to do. I really don't know what else could be said about #8.

 

9. I personally think that you saying, "We can't ever begin to know why" as the answer to why people must be tortured endlessly in Hell is a cop out. Even if I thought that your god was real, maybe if I saw enough evidence to be convinced, I would, I wouldn't settle with the answer, "You won't ever begin to understand why."  If your god is real and wants me to trust him, then he can't justify every barbaric action he commits with, "I had to, you would never understand." If I decided to become a serial killer right now and tortured my victims before I killed them, why should I expect everyone, the victims' families, the judge in the courtroom, the prosecutor, and the jury, to trust me and release me based on the justification of, "I had to kill and torture my victims, you would never understand why"? If I used that as a justification, the whole court room would be in an uproar and the judge would be calling for order. My attorney would have told me I was a moron and I would have given the jury one more reason to convict me.

 

10. I do see the system as unjust. Everyone is being forced to suffer for the actions of Adam and Eve, supposedly. It doesn't matter if the suffering will seem worth it or absolutely nothing, compared to some significant thing we might see or understand after we die. It is not justice for people to be punished for the actions of others. Case closed. If I was a father and I had three kids, if I decided to brutally spank all of my children because one of them did something I told them not to, would that be justice? No. Does it become justice if I buy them fancy cars when they learn to drive? I don't think so. What if I tell them that they have inherited millions of dollars and that I had to punish all of the children for the actions of one, in order for them to get it, at the ages of 18, does that make it just? Nope, not in the least. What that looks like is I punished them all for the actions of one of them, simply because I could, and made up some random excuse to justify it later on down the road.

 

All of these things that you say your god is giving believers and that it is the holy spirit's job to declare it ours, sound nice. However, to me, it looks like a bribe, to get people to be better slaves and more obedient sheep. It looks as though the purpose of his "gifts" are to make us worship him without question, but if we don't accept the gift and do what he wants us to do, we get burned in fire and the torture never ends. All I have to say to your god, if he is real, is, "Stop trying to butter me up. It is not going to make you look any nicer in my eyes. Your actions and your justifications make you appear corrupt and I can't trust you. I don't want control of the universe. I would rather burn in Hell as a rebel, than live in paradise, as an enabler, simply ignoring the evil you do and not objecting to it."

 

It has been quite an interesting discussion, Heavenese, and still is. I don't know how much longer this will go, though. Our discussion could go on for 10 more pages lol.

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Man Heavenese does your brain hurt after all that mental gymnastics?

 

This is the overall picture of God throughout the Bible.  We see it particularly with the giving of the Law.  (Exodus 34 verses 6-7)  That God has mercy for thousands, but by no means clearing the guilty.  We are also told that God doesn't lie, and that His word is as good as His name or better.  So I connect all those things together.

 

 

 

God lies

Genesis 6:2

 

2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose

 

John 3:16

 

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

Spoiler alert there are more lies.

 

 

Well, Jesus is one of a kind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 One, when I look at Israel, I find it similar in how the prophecies speak concerning it.  The fact they exist in the land today is interesting to me.  There's no real reason why they should have come back into the land and occupy it.  It would be like a persecuted people group in the US, going somewhere and making their own country on occupied land.  Something like that wouldn't happen in today's world without a war in the least.  Another reason deals with certain scientific hypotheses and theories concerning string theory.  It's believed concerning how these cosmic strings vibrate, that dictates everything around us and it's properties.  The vibration part always catch my ear because documentaries are always comparing this vibration to that of strings on a musical instrument.  I'm not necessarily saying the strings of string theory makes sound, but sense it's visualized in that context, the Bible states God brought creation in by speaking it into existence.  Certainly a voice makes sound, or sound waves travel.  I consider stuff like this to be circumstantial, and worthy to look into.  In Daniel, it's prophecied that knowledge would increase as the time of the end drew near, and I believe that is general knowledge. (And interesting enough, the "word" science means knowledge)  So those are a couple of my reasons.

 

 

To your second response, certainly Solomon's temple existed prior to the Babylonian captivity. (Scholars possibly argue that)  If the temple existed, it's not a stretch to say all the instruments and items such as the ark existed prior to the captivity as well.  Those things would go back to Moses, or the traditions of Moses and the giving of the Law.  I also believe the accounts that make up Genesis would also have an existence prior to the captivity.  I consider all that information to be closely related.  So if there was a temple, there was an ark.  If there was an ark, there were the tablets that contained the Ten Commandments.  All all traditions, including that of Genesis, are related to that time period of the giving of the Law.

 

 

{snip}

 

To you last reference, if we want to get technical, no adultery was committed.  This was like artificial insemination

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to cut out all the issues where we are not making progress.  It's been established that you will just repeat theology so no headway can be made there.

 

Modern Israel has nothing to do with ancient Israel.  The similarity in name is only a coincidence.  The closest you can get to ancient Israel are the Palestinians who's ancestors survived the Roman purge only to be over run by the Muslim Jihad.  Those who survived converted to Islam.  Modern Israel did come about as the result of a war.  World War II was quite a big one.  Afterwards the United Kingdom decided to draw the maps differently and disposed of their extra land as they saw fit.  There is nothing prophetic about it.  Modern Israel is a European culture.  It's a democracy rather than a monarchy or theocracy.  You could not be more wrong about this.

 

String theory therefore the voice of God?  That is ridiculous.  You reject science except to give you buzz words that you use to fit your own needs without regard to their real meaning.

 

Daniel really went out on a limb "prophesying" that knowledge increases over time.  That is almost as good as prophesying that water is wet.  Have you not noticed that human knowledge increases over time?  Hasn't everybody?  I'm going to prophesy that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.  I'm a prophet of God.  However no matter how many thousands of years go by the end never draws near.  It's never the last days.  

 

The fact that there was a temple doesn't mean it had an ark or that the ark was authentic nor that the Patriarchs such as Moses had ever lived.

 

Artificial insemination was invented thousands of years later.  It didn't exist back then.  People living back then could not have seen the events using a concept invented in modern times.  However they did understand young ladies getting pregnant when the law said they shouldn't and hearing all kinds of weak excuses.  According to "God's law" Mary was the property of Joseph and God violated that.  Mary was suppose to be stoned to death for "playing the harlot" or drink biohazard from the tabernacle floor as required by the torah.    If we found some roadkill that had been out in the sun for a while and scooped up the dust underneath it and you drank that maybe you too would earn "God's jealousy curse" with no grain offering or prayer from any priest required.  It isn't magic and it isn't divine power.  Drink something so very yuck and you will get sick.

 

You suspend disbelief when your religion is silly.  I'm sure you can explain all of this away with some good hand waving.

 

 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you a bit.  Yet those are my reasons for my wanting to search this out for myself.  I'm sure you understand that feeling.  Even if my understanding is nonsense, should I come to that conclusion without looking into it for myself?  I'm still confident I'll stumble across something big, in spite of my understanding right now.  Yet if I'm right, and find evidence to the things I've been speaking on, well, that will speak for itself.  Of course some of those reasons I listed was a few and didn't go into much detail. (Being why I would disagree with you)

 

 

 

 

 

As for the verse, I don't see a contradiction.  The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.  We basically earn death, but if we receive God's gift, we can have eternal life.  In that case upon receiving the gift, we have eternal life.  So it's not a matter of being both dead and having eternal life, it's an either/or.  If you want what you earn, you will get death.  If you want the gift of God, you will receive life.

 

 

As for should we see what Jesus did really being a sacrifice, from my reading Jesus could have failed His mission.  He could have gave over into temptation like Adam did, and become corrupt.  So that was a risk.  Another thing is Jesus didn't have to do what He did.  He could have let man earn what he got. (And if God decided to go that route, then Adam and Eve would have been judged right there, and we wouldn't have existed)  So it was a sacrifice from that perspective.  Yeah, God was well able to pay for our way, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a sacrifice.  If a soldier goes in to save his comrade, and ultimately both survive, does that mean the heroic soldier didn't sacrifice his life for another?  If you say the soldier risked his/her life, Jesus also risked Himself as well, because He could have gave in to temptation and fell like Adam.

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the wages of sin is death .... The very act of being born.... You are condemned to original sin. Sorry, I've committed no crime. I'd rather not worship something that condemns me upon birth for something my great great great....grandfather did. That's like me going to jail because my Dad stole a car. Makes no sense and you wouldn't see this scenario in a courtroom either.

 

If God is angry because it is in our DNA to sin, then change our DNA.

 

And then after condemning us to death via original sin God says we can  be saved thru Jesus. Why not just repeal the original sin thing? Is God off his meds? Why would you want to live eternity in heaven knowing he would probably blow his stack again at some point? I'll take death.

 

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Let's see, the father, the son, the holy spirit. The triune god. The three-in-one god. The trinity. How could Jesus have his own will separate from God if he was one and the same as God? If Jesus had decided, "I know I created myself here on Earth to hang myself on the cross, but now I don't wanna and so I refuse." He would be defying his own self since he is the trinity of the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Or does god just have multiple personality disorder (father, son, holy ghost)? To say that he could have gone against his own will is absurd.

 

The comparison of Jesus to a human soldier does not apply. Jesus is supposed to be immortal, being God and all. Why would Jesus fear suffering on the cross a few hours? He was supposed to die, resurrect, and then live eternal life after that in heaven. A soldier on the other hand knows life could just end by putting himself in harms way. In no way would Jesus ever suffer a loss because he is immortal right? A soldier isn't.

 

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The more we talk about how God comes up with convoluted solutions to simple problems the more I am convinced that someone on an acid trip wrote the bible.

 

 

 

It's more like us growing up in a bad home.  Even though it played a part in our development, we are still held accountable for crime that's committed, if we understand what we're doing.  In the courtroom, it wouldn't matter if I grew up in a bad home, I would still be held accountable if I broke the law.  In the same way, God doesn't hold us accountable to Adam's actions and the results of it.  God solved the DNA problem.  Our choices after that will be what's judged.

 

 

God doesn't have multiple personalities, but is three distinct persons.  The best way to describe it, is to look at the concept of spirit/soul/body.  According to the Bible, we are all made up of these three distinct parts, yet are one.  So it's like that, but in a more powerful sense.  Yet all in all, Jesus risked His own status and nature for us.  Just because He successfully accomplished His part, doesn't mean He couldn't have lost it.  That's the definition of a sacrifice.  Putting something on the line that you can lose for someone or something else.  Jesus could have fell just like Adam, just like Adam could have obeyed God.

 

 

God is three persons. So Christianity is polytheistic? Three distinct parts could make one whole but three distinct persons would make up three wholes. :-)

 

It would be impossible for God (Jesus) to be unable to fulfill his own purpose if he were all powerful. Unless we are to say Jesus was merely a human being. By saying Jesus 'could' have lost it would indicate to me that Jesus was not God but just a human. To me if God were all powerful, he couldn't just "lose it." And if we follow what the bible said, he accomplished his part so hypothetical non-scenarios of losing it is irrelevant. imho.

 

Jesus was supposed to be God incarnate while Adam was not God incarnate. At least that's my understanding.

 

Anyway, I hope you have enjoyed the thread and the various points and counterpoints and hope you have found some things here to help make life better no matter what direction you take. :-)

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