Guest r3alchild Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Christians, I challenge you to provide proof that faith is better than facts. Here is your chance to argue for faiths sake and forever set the record strait for yourselfs and your god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Christians, I challenge you to provide proof that faith is better than facts. Here is your chance to argue for faiths sake and forever set the record strait for yourselfs and your god. I'm already expecting failure, but maybe somehow, a Christian will come up with something that is so undeniably true that it will change my mind, but I doubt it. What I expect is presuppositional arguments and something about Christianity solving the problem of evil and the other religions failing to do so, which I still don't even know what that really means. The story of Pandora's box explaining why evil exists is just as valid as a story about all humans being cursed because two people were convinced by a talking snake to eat some forbidden fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 . . . proof that faith is better than facts. Brace yourselves. Bible verses are coming. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Note: Christians you can use any method you believe in to prove that faith is better than fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 . . . proof that faith is better than facts. Brace yourselves. Bible verses are coming. Swish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Christians, I challenge you to provide proof that faith is better than facts. Here is your chance to argue for faiths sake and forever set the record strait for yourselfs and your god. I'm already expecting failure, but maybe somehow, a Christian will come up with something that is so undeniably true that it will change my mind, but I doubt it. What I expect is presuppositional arguments and something about Christianity solving the problem of evil and the other religions failing to do so, which I still don't even know what that really means. The story of Pandora's box explaining why evil exists is just as valid as a story about all humans being cursed because two people were convinced by a talking snake to eat some forbidden fruit. Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 If I had a account at carm I would have posted this thread there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I'm not sure this is the best worded challenge. After all, Christians think that their faith is fact-based, so you'd be arguing a strawman. Wouldn't it be better to challenge their assumed set of facts itself (i.e. show that Jesus wasn't resurrected from the dead)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesG Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Ill take the bait. The bible says its true and that it is the source for all knowledge. Any wisdom gained outside of it is folly and your looking for god's wrath. In fact non-believers cannot understand the bible so therefore you cant discuss it because you cant comprehend its infinite founts of wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I'm not sure this is the best worded challenge. After all, Christians think that their faith is fact-based, so you'd be arguing a strawman. Wouldn't it be better to challenge their assumed set of facts itself (i.e. show that Jesus wasn't resurrected from the dead)?If that happens to come up as a mode to argue for faith then I will argue the facts against it. I don't want to set the scene to early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Ill take the bait. The bible says its true and that it is the source for all knowledge. Any wisdom gained outside of it is folly and your looking for god's wrath. In fact non-believers cannot understand the bible so therefore you cant discuss it because you cant comprehend its infinite founts of wisdom. Let me go on the record and state that any christian who uses this argument to safe guard their beliefs from being examined know that I answered that argument. Firstly it is a very good defensive move christians sometimes take that will end the argument in a stalemate. No one wins here although the christian will have the last say and take the moral high ground. But if the bible can't be understood by any type of unbeliever then what does paul mean when he says this: 2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. So here we see that the word of god is good for demolishing arguments that set themselfs up against god and my challenge is a argument that has or will set itself up against god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Ill take the bait. The bible says its true and that it is the source for all knowledge. Any wisdom gained outside of it is folly and your looking for god's wrath. In fact non-believers cannot understand the bible so therefore you cant discuss it because you cant comprehend its infinite founts of wisdom. The perfect counter argument for that would be that a real god, at least one that is not corrupt, would not rely on people to gain knowledge from only one source of information, especially a source that could have very easily been implanted with whatever nonsense people wanted to put in. "In fact non-believers cannot understand the bible so therefore you cant discuss it because you cant comprehend its infinite founts of wisdom." I am sure many of us know that a response like this is just a cop-out used to prevent doubts, indicating that the Bible is just another "holy" book written by people who either don't know what they are talking about or are trying to control others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackCat Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 If you had posed this question to me when I was still a Christian, I would have found it a strange challenge. I never believed that faith is better than evidence or facts or things real as opposed to things we are asked to believe in that we haven't experienced - and I don't recall reading anywhere in the bible where it says that faith is 'better' than facts. So I think this challenge is a bit misleading, if you don't mind me saying. Faith is part of a process which one day will result in faith not being required - well that's how I understood it to be from reading the Bible. When I was a Christian, I very often suspended my 'faith' because what I was being asked to have faith in, very often seemed wrong. I figured that if God was real, he would understand why some things need proof and not just faith. He didn't mind doubting Thomas wanting proof and so I didn't worry too much about my lack of faith in much of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Ill take the bait. The bible says its true and that it is the source for all knowledge. Any wisdom gained outside of it is folly and your looking for god's wrath. In fact non-believers cannot understand the bible so therefore you cant discuss it because you cant comprehend its infinite founts of wisdom. Heh, well since Christians excel at devouring one another, I'll play the role of Christian #2 who comes to argue with his own kind. Looks like this is going to be a mock debate. All truth is God's truth. Therefore it is not folly to look outside Scripture for information. That information, however, must be subordinated to Scripture. So any knowledge that confirms Scripture is good, and any that denies it has been misinterpreted. That's one Christian response, to the best of my ability to represent it, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolaida Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Is it sad that I forgot I wasn't a Christian anymore for a moment when I read the topic. It was like the old auto response of needing to defend my beliefs and bring God to others because they were all missing out on so much. It's been a rough month, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 If you had posed this question to me when I was still a Christian, I would have found it a strange challenge. I never believed that faith is better than evidence or facts or things real as opposed to things we are asked to believe in that we haven't experienced - and I don't recall reading anywhere in the bible where it says that faith is 'better' than facts. So I think this challenge is a bit misleading, if you don't mind me saying. Faith is part of a process which one day will result in faith not being required - well that's how I understood it to be from reading the Bible. When I was a Christian, I very often suspended my 'faith' because what I was being asked to have faith in, very often seemed wrong. I figured that if God was real, he would understand why some things need proof and not just faith. He didn't mind doubting Thomas wanting proof and so I didn't worry too much about my lack of faith in much of the Bible. Well this challenge is for those christians who put faith first over facts, such as the claim of the inerrancy of the bible and many other things they claim that sets itself up against the facts. And when you read scriptures like this you can see how christians get the idea that faith is paramount Proverbs 14:14 The faithless will be fully repaid for their ways, and the good rewarded for theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Is it sad that I forgot I wasn't a Christian anymore for a moment when I read the topic. It was like the old auto response of needing to defend my beliefs and bring God to others because they were all missing out on so much. It's been a rough month, lol. You can argue your old christian view point and if your argument turns out to be a strawman, you can stand back and watch it burn as we all do when we first de-convert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Ill take the bait. The bible says its true and that it is the source for all knowledge. Any wisdom gained outside of it is folly and your looking for god's wrath. In fact non-believers cannot understand the bible so therefore you cant discuss it because you cant comprehend its infinite founts of wisdom. Heh, well since Christians excel at devouring one another, I'll play the role of Christian #2 who comes to argue with his own kind. Looks like this is going to be a mock debate. All truth is God's truth. Therefore it is not folly to look outside Scripture for information. That information, however, must be subordinated to Scripture. So any knowledge that confirms Scripture is good, and any that denies it has been misinterpreted. That's one Christian response, to the best of my ability to represent it, anyway. 1 Corinthians 4:6Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kolaida Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Is it sad that I forgot I wasn't a Christian anymore for a moment when I read the topic. It was like the old auto response of needing to defend my beliefs and bring God to others because they were all missing out on so much. It's been a rough month, lol.You can argue your old christian view point and if your argument turns out to be a strawman, you can stand back and watch it burn as we all do when we first de-convert. LOL! I've already been there. I think I'll spare myself this time around. Thanks, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackCat Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I agree 'faith' is one of the most important things mentioned in the bible, although Paul says that 'love' is more important than 'faith'. I see 'faith' (according to my understanding of the Bible) as a unique thing for each person who claims they believe God and the bible ie everyone's measure of faith is different. I remember meeting many Christians who had 'blind' faith. They didn't use their reasoning powers and just accepted whatever they were told and then there were/are 'Christians' like I was, that did test things and question stuff. Anything I came across that clashed with science (e.g Noah's flood), I would just put to one side and assume it was a parable or story that had some truth to it, but was not literally true. The Bible itself says that faith is not something you yourself can conjure up out of the air- it is supposedly given to you??? So I didn't fret about not having faith in this doctrine or faith in that bit of the Bible. If God didn't want to zap me with the faith for it, then that's not my fault. The guys that supposedly wrote the NT books, had witnessed miracles and had concrete proof for what they believed. Their faith was more to do with the future outcome and what happened after they died, so their faith was supposedly based on evidence as well as the confirmation by the Holy Spirit. We today, have none of that proof: there are no miracles or tongues of fire coming down on people etc etc. We're being asked to believe stories that are thousands of years old and don't have much bearing on our lives. If there is a God, he knows this. All I can really believe for sure, are the principles of 'love', 'kindness' and 'forgiveness' etc, which are also found in other religions. That is as far as I can go. It got too tiring trying to 'believe' or fabricate a 'relationship' with an ancient character who is as real to me as any other historical figure. I liken my forced faith, to swimming: I'm flapping my arms whilst trying to stay afloat and not drown. If I stopped flapping my arms, I would sink: If I stopped trying to believe in Jesus or trying to reach him, would he keep me afloat? No, I've well and truly sunk to the bottom, thus proving it was only I keeping the faith thing going....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I agree 'faith' is one of the most important things mentioned in the bible, although Paul says that 'love' is more important than 'faith'. I see 'faith' (according to my understanding of the Bible) as a unique thing for each person who claims they believe God and the bible ie everyone's measure of faith is different. I remember meeting many Christians who had 'blind' faith. They didn't use their reasoning powers and just accepted whatever they were told and then there were/are 'Christians' like I was, that did test things and question stuff. Anything I came across that clashed with science (e.g Noah's flood), I would just put to one side and assume it was a parable or story that had some truth to it, but was not literally true. The Bible itself says that faith is not something you yourself can conjure up out of the air- it is supposedly given to you??? So I didn't fret about not having faith in this doctrine or faith in that bit of the Bible. If God didn't want to zap me with the faith for it, then that's not my fault. The guys that supposedly wrote the NT books, had witnessed miracles and had concrete proof for what they believed. Their faith was more to do with the future outcome and what happened after they died, so their faith was supposedly based on evidence as well as the confirmation by the Holy Spirit. We today, have none of that proof: there are no miracles or tongues of fire coming down on people etc etc. We're being asked to believe stories that are thousands of years old and don't have much bearing on our lives. If there is a God, he knows this. All I can really believe for sure, are the principles of 'love', 'kindness' and 'forgiveness' etc, which are also found in other religions. That is as far as I can go. It got too tiring trying to 'believe' or fabricate a 'relationship' with an ancient character who is as real to me as any other historical figure. I liken my forced faith, to swimming: I'm flapping my arms whilst trying to stay afloat and not drown. If I stopped flapping my arms, I would sink: If I stopped trying to believe in Jesus or trying to reach him, would he keep me afloat? No, I've well and truly sunk to the bottom, thus proving it was only I keeping the faith thing going.......I have very strong doubts about the originality of the nt stories and what the apostles really did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackCat Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I have very strong doubts about the originality of the nt stories and what the apostles really did. I doubted the whole thing. There is no proof that any of that stuff happened or is still happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Christians read your challenge as: "Please don't throw me in the brier patch." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesG Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Ill take the bait. The bible says its true and that it is the source for all knowledge. Any wisdom gained outside of it is folly and your looking for god's wrath. In fact non-believers cannot understand the bible so therefore you cant discuss it because you cant comprehend its infinite founts of wisdom. Heh, well since Christians excel at devouring one another, I'll play the role of Christian #2 who comes to argue with his own kind. Looks like this is going to be a mock debate. All truth is God's truth. Therefore it is not folly to look outside Scripture for information. That information, however, must be subordinated to Scripture. So any knowledge that confirms Scripture is good, and any that denies it has been misinterpreted. That's one Christian response, to the best of my ability to represent it, anyway. Your just not a real Christian and you are misrepresenting scripture. You are obviously demon possessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Ill take the bait. The bible says its true and that it is the source for all knowledge. Any wisdom gained outside of it is folly and your looking for god's wrath. In fact non-believers cannot understand the bible so therefore you cant discuss it because you cant comprehend its infinite founts of wisdom. Heh, well since Christians excel at devouring one another, I'll play the role of Christian #2 who comes to argue with his own kind. Looks like this is going to be a mock debate. All truth is God's truth. Therefore it is not folly to look outside Scripture for information. That information, however, must be subordinated to Scripture. So any knowledge that confirms Scripture is good, and any that denies it has been misinterpreted. That's one Christian response, to the best of my ability to represent it, anyway. Your just not a real Christian and you are misrepresenting scripture. You are obviously demon possessed. Ill take the bait. The bible says its true and that it is the source for all knowledge. Any wisdom gained outside of it is folly and your looking for god's wrath. In fact non-believers cannot understand the bible so therefore you cant discuss it because you cant comprehend its infinite founts of wisdom. Heh, well since Christians excel at devouring one another, I'll play the role of Christian #2 who comes to argue with his own kind. Looks like this is going to be a mock debate. All truth is God's truth. Therefore it is not folly to look outside Scripture for information. That information, however, must be subordinated to Scripture. So any knowledge that confirms Scripture is good, and any that denies it has been misinterpreted. That's one Christian response, to the best of my ability to represent it, anyway. Your just not a real Christian and you are misrepresenting scripture. You are obviously demon possessed.Who is a real christian? At what point do you really know you are one? Answer: Death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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