Perfect Proof for God

[Guest lvdyou]

1. Why is eternally evolving biologically or non-biologically wrong, that is, in its more encompassing meaning? Simply stated, if for eternity things have been evolving (biologically or non-biologically), by this very definition of evolving, you would have had an eternity to be perfected irrespective of when you personally started in the evolving chain. The assumption that it has always been going on in the past of eternity (many cosmologists and evolutionists believe this, biologically or non-biologically as they have told me so), therefore, then, what must follow, is that you have also had an eternity to be perfected and since you are not, this proves that such evolving eternally of the past is incorrect. We can see in just a few short years from 6000 years ago since the first Adamic man that we have changed and matured in leaps and bounds and that it will not need another 6000 years to be perfected. The pre-endemic, pre-adamic period is considered the "dust" of the ground (Gen. 2.7). It will do nothing for your spirit and your life in Christ for it can not explain initial cause, and that is where it will always fall short of the glory of God since man can not know all God's ways.

 

2. If an evolutionist or cosmologist or atheist or agnostic (thinly veiled atheism since a non-choice is still a rejection of God because it is not an acceptance) comes to you and says the big bang (or other natural means) is the beginning, again, that is false also since material (nature) doesn't happen all by itself. There is always a cause to the effects in nature. Material (or the smallest of particles) only knows how to react to the elements and its environment (or other small particles or waves or strings or quarks). It does not make a choice. But God does choose, and He chooses for a reason.

 

3. The next trick that an evolutionist or cosmologist (as apposed to a regenerated one) or atheist or agnostic tries to pull over your eyes is through the question, "why can't God have a creator?" Easy. Because that by definition no longer makes God God now does it? By definition God is uncreated. The subject is God uncreated, not a god able to be created. I have His uncreated life in my spirit which affords me eternal life, His life. You may speak of gods or idols or other mechanisms, but debasing God has eternal consequences, since God is, by the definition of God, uncreated when referring to God. You can not make the argument that someone or something created God since then you would no longer be speaking about God, but perhaps a god or idol or something in your imagination. We are speaking about the definition of the only God who has an eternal life, and perfect clarity, wisdom, righteousness and holiness, in His omnipotent, transcendent, omniscience immensity. He is incapable of sinning.

 

4. But there is yet another twist to the demented unregenerated (that I was one once) evolutionist and cosmologist's, atheist and agnostic mind that is hostile towards and independent from God. He will say "ok, so a lesser god created, so why can't he have a creator, and a creator create that creator?" This is not possible either. Why? Good question. It is because this presupposes an eternity of the past of creating gods and things and materials in causal relationships, one following after the other. This reverts us back up to #1, which if there is an eternity past of this evolving process, then you would have been perfected by now, yet you are not.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/perfectproof.htm

[webmdave]

Please refrain from copying and pasting articles from other websites. You can reference or link to them, but filling this board with other men's sermons is not helpful to discussion.

 

Thanks.

[Guest lvdyou]

This is not another man's sermon. These are my words. I wrote them. Why does this offend you? The truth has a tendency to do that.

[Saviourmachine]

1. Why is eternally evolving biologically or non-biologically wrong, that is, in its more encompassing meaning?

Evolution is about adapting, not about becoming pefect.

 

2. If an evolutionist or cosmologist or atheist or agnostic (thinly veiled atheism since a non-choice is still a rejection of God because it is not an acceptance) comes to you and says the big bang (or other natural means) is the beginning, again, that is false also since material (nature) doesn't happen all by itself. There is always a cause to the effects in nature. Material (or the smallest of particles) only knows how to react to the elements and its environment (or other small particles or waves or strings or quarks). It does not make a choice. But God does choose, and He chooses for a reason.

2.a. Do you reject my girl-friend? 2.b. What's the nature of a coause? Why is reaction to element and environment any different than indetermined action? 2.c. God doesn't have reasons to do something.

 

3. ... By definition God is uncreated...

Ha ha.

 

4. ...agnostic mind that is hostile towards and independent from God.

Show your god. Let him speak. Is Baal god or Jehova god? Set up the test, gather the stones, ask for a bit more water. And see your god fail!!

[Mr. Neil]

Dude, your use of the term "evolution" is horrendous. Saviour hit it right in the head when he said that evolution is about adaptation. Your argument amounts to a strawman, since barely anything you've had to say about evolution has anything to do with the real theory. It has nothing to do with perfection. Evolution is not a one-way road to complexity. Learn that and try again.

 

In fact, I'm going to ask you kindly to only use the word evolution in reference to adaptations in biology. It has nothing to do with changes in universe. If you insist on using such layman terms as "non-biological evolution", then you will have made it clear that you insist on using a strawman argument in order to attack something, which you obviously don't know anything about in the first place.

 

Clickity-click!

 

 

"I know this is painful for you to hear"

 

Your overconfidence is unwarranted. Personally, I don't hear anything at all, but that could have a whole lot to do with the fact that this is a web forum, for which there is not audio.

 

And while we may not be able to hear anything, I think you should prepare yourself for the merciless onslaught of sound refutations to everything you just typed.

 

God, I love corny puns! Yuck yuck!

[Reach]

This is not another man's sermon. These are my words. I wrote them. Why does this offend you? The truth has a tendency to do that.

What is offensive is your coming in here and pontificating on subjects we have already studied, many of us, extensively. If you had better manners it might have ocurred to you that you should sit down and listen awhile because your "students" have gone farther in their studies than you have. If you had better manners you might have introduced yourself instead. Your approach is appalling and lacks both diplomacy (the art of the ambassador) and any sense of decorum.

 

Of course, it also helps tremendously when the "teacher" has the facts straight.

[Guest Gothicrip]

This is not another man's sermon. These are my words. I wrote them. Why does this offend you? The truth has a tendency to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Truth? What truth? >_> I don't see no truth, just someone explaining how a story book really tells us the truth without any hard evidence.

 

And if god is uncreated, doesn't that mean god doesn't exist? Or was god actually self creating?

 

Just because god is god doesn't suffice because that would mean he doesn't exist (uncreated) or god was created by another being that was self creating...

 

As for evolution, of course we're not perfected if we were, we'd look like clones of one another and die out when a giant volcano erupts or something because we don't change then.

 

Besides, what is perfected? Tougher skin? Fangs? Fairy wings?

[Reach]

Besides, what is perfected? Tougher skin? Fangs? Fairy wings?

Some people like the Spock look.

 

Welcome Gothicrip, good to have you with us.

 

Excuse me, I need to go trim my nails.

[Vixentrox]

Your right! There must be a god! Since Ra has a cool name, he must have created the world. How come you don't belive it was Ra that made the world? Or how about Odin?

[atheist_thinker]

Ok, I'll drop all commen sense and reasoning and jump on board. I got my rattle snakes so lets dance.

[Java]

PROOF?

 

Put that into actual proof form (you know, with > and < and = and {~A}) and I MIGHT read your perfect proof. Otherwise all you have delivered is a monstrosity of raped grammar and, as Mista Neil said, strawmen.

 

...I REALLY need coffee now. >_<

[Mr. Neil]

Not only is it loaded with strawmen attacks, but I fail to see how attacking atheists, evolution, and cosmology effectively proves God. Sounds like the classic argument from ignorance to me.

 

Christian logic: Obliterate the opposition, and you win without actually providing an argument in favor of Christianity.

 

Try something new, Mr. Christian.

[white_raven23]

1. Why is eternally evolving biologically or non-biologically wrong, that is, in its more encompassing meaning? Simply stated, if for eternity things have been evolving (biologically or non-biologically), by this very definition of evolving, you would have had an eternity to be perfected irrespective of when you personally started in the evolving chain.

 

First, let me start by saying I think you are a sanctimonious snot. Even truly wise people do not speak down their noses at others. Even when they know they are the most intelligent creature in the room. Your biblebook says that the meek shall inherit. If you are an example of the meek, then I'm grabbing my towel and hitching my way out of here (gotta have your towel).

 

Second, the universe has not had an eternity to evolve. I thing our sun is what 6 billion years old? I can't recall. Hopefully someone else can help me out there. Either way, the universe (as we know and comprehend it currently) has not been around "forever" a concept spanning a length of time beyond our own ability to fully grasp. Or perhaps you don't know the definition of eternity? I'm not sure

 

But God does choose, and He chooses for a reason.

 

Okay, I'll give you that. BUT as the biblebook, religion, and everything in our power to grasp is only that which is present in the living world, AND only on this planet, we have NO concept of what God is really up to, or how we fit into the scheme of it all. You'll note I'm not going to argue the existence of god. It's not beyond possible that there is such an intelligence. But do I know it's nature? Do you? We CANNOT know those things because our available information only covers this plane of existence.

 

This is not another man's sermon. These are my words. I wrote them. Why does this offend you? The truth has a tendency to do that.

 

These were your words in response to our Webmaster. I went to your link "Troy". How was he, or any of us supposed to equate "Troy" with "Lvdyou"? And how DARE you respond like such an ASS when he called you for something you didn't fully disclose in the first place?

 

Pond scum is more highly evolved than you are.

 

THANK GOD!!

 

[Merlinfmct87]

I make the best coffee mum has ever tasted,

it has evolved to perfection,

therefore I am God.

 

Merlin

[Caretaker]

If you are going to prove something, you must state your axioms first. I see no axioms for which to base your arguments from. You also need to make definitions known. Maybe you should consider enrolling in a formal logic class in your nearest University and study axiomatic systems before you attempt to throw a poorly-constructed proof at us.

[Heimdall]

Simply stated, if for eternity things have been evolving (biologically or non-biologically), by this very definition of evolving, you would have had an eternity to be perfected irrespective of when you personally started in the evolving chain.

And you know what the Creator (I do not recognize your primitive Hebrew War God or his bastardly get, being a follower of the true religion – Deism) considers perfection or how long it takes for him to finish the creation process of that perfection? Some how I doubt that you as a mere human have the ability to understand even the lowest of the Creator’s musings, much less his plans or higher-level thoughts!

 

what must follow, is that you have also had an eternity to be perfected and since you are not, this proves that such evolving eternally of the past is incorrect.

Quite the contrary, it shows that you are making assumptions based on inadequate data and antique mythology that has been shown repeatedly to be erroneous! That there has been cosmic evolution and biological evolution in the past and that it is continuing as part of the cosmic cycle has been demonstrated innumerable times. The only thing incorrect here is your assertion.

 

We can see in just a few short years from 6000 years ago since the first Adamic man that we have changed and matured in leaps and bounds and that it will not need another 6000 years to be perfected

The man of 6000 years ago is identical, both physically and genetically, in shape and intelligence to modern man. What you seem to be obliquely referring to is social evolution and in all actuality, primitive man seems to have had fairly evolved social concepts. There has only been one period of mankind’s history that has been a setback in his social evolution and progress towards perfection and that was from 4th century CE to 16th century CE. During this period (from the adoption of the Christ Cult as the official religion of the Roman Empire to the full blooming of the Reformation and the Renaissance) mankind was repressed to almost animalistic levels by the clergy and the clergy-supported nobility. During this point, mankind actually devolved socially. The Church denied all but an extremely small handful of people any education at all, and only those of the highest station received more than basic education. With the reformation and renaissance, social evolution started slowly inching forward, until finally in the late 19th century and the full 20th century (with the slow and still continuing dissolution of the Christ Cult), social evolution once again began surging forward. Everything that you hold dear about American is not from your much vaunted Cult, but from individuals that had little or no use for the Christ Cult or the God of your Bible!

 

that is false also since material (nature) doesn't happen all by itself.

As a Deist, I too do not believe that there is no Creator, but I contend that although he is the initiator, he worked through the “Big Bang”, evolution, and such other scientific laws. As a skeptic, I must point out that your statement does not qualify for more than mere personal opinion, as does mine. However, if science (see how easy it is not to throw out titles in insulting ways) were to come up with definitive evidence that the universe was self-starting, I would accept it instead of railing at the “godless”!

 

"why can't God have a creator?"

Really, this is about the stupidest thing you have brought up. Most individuals (What the hell is an evolutionist or cosmologist, never hear of anyone calling themselves that and it smacks of a small minded Christ Cultist attempting to insult those more intelligent and less dogmatic) that I have debated or discussed such with have only mentioned this in passing. It you accept an “uncreated” God, then a self-starting universe is just as viable. Doesn’t you Cult teach to do more than mouth what you have been told?

 

  We are speaking about the definition of the only God who has an eternal life, and perfect clarity, wisdom, righteousness and holiness, in His omnipotent, transcendent, omniscience immensity. He is incapable of sinning.

Any deity that would destroy the world to get rid of a handful of sinners (he could have used a tailored plague that would have taken out only the targeted species and spared the rest) is either stupid or loves to kill innocent victims, which is a sin. Christ Cultists unsuccessfully try to explain this away as being “God’s prerogative”, but I say logically that is Male Bovine Manure of the highest quality!

 

This reverts us back up to #1, which if there is an eternity past of this evolving process, then you would have been perfected by now, yet you are not.

You are repeating yourself here, so just go back and reread my rebuttal to that point! If you ever learn to phrase your thoughts coherently and base your arguments on what you have learned and not dogma, come back and see me, I love to debate the stupidity of the Christ Cult! - Heimdall

[Kryten]

The pre-endemic, pre-adamic period is considered the "dust" of the ground (Gen. 2.7). It will do nothing for your spirit and your life in Christ for it can not explain initial cause, and that is where it will always fall short of the glory of God since man can not know all God's ways.

So you define your position from the start as one who will only go as far as your doctrine allows, until you get to the point where "you cannot know God's ways", then weasel out.

. . . If an evolutionist or cosmologist or atheist or agnostic (thinly veiled atheism since a non-choice is still a rejection of God because it is not an acceptance)...

That assertion provides us with evidence of your ignorance. Agnostics do NOT have enough information to believe in God one way or another, although (generally) they DO HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE to REJECT the god of the bible, since things written therein about him are blesphemous, and describe a petty, ignorant, intollerant, unskilled, and immoral diety. (I will gladly back up each of those claims with evidence from your bible if you desire.) You apparently are unclear on the difference, or do not wish to understand.

. . . He is incapable of sinning.

Only because when He does, it then becomes okay. Like murdering countless babies, sending Satan to destroy Job's family (all innocent), and being jealous.

. . . This reverts us back up to #1, which if there is an eternity past of this evolving process, then you would have been perfected by now, yet you are not.

Humans in general are not perfected because many of them still believe in ancient superstitions that encourage murder, discrimination, torture, intollerance, and irrational belief. Once Christians and Muslims are gone we will be a lot closer.

[quicksand]

Perfect proof for God? How is that capable? Since when can humans do anything perfect. LOL.

 

Dear me.

[Java]

I'd like to suggest that anyone who uses the phrase "evolutionist" get a special second-avatar. The proper term is "scientist" TYVMGTFOMI.

[Dio]

lvdyou, I actually praised your essay on regeneration, but this one sucks.

[Guest lvdyou]

I reject your modernist war god.

 

A sinner says there is not such thing as perfecting for he needs to believe this since he has had an eternity to get right so he thinks, so instead of asking why he is not perfected yet with an eternity and instead of realizing we have not been evolving for eternity, therefore, we were created.

 

God is not destroying the world to get rid of a handful of sinners. The world will eventually because that is its last 1000 years left. And it finalizes the removal of all sin as Satan is let out one last time for a brief period at that time.

 

An unloving god would abandon his creation. But God of the Bible is not deistic since He is actively working and indwelling His own by the Holy Spirit. It as God that hardened the Pharoh's heart who was already hostile to God.

 

Since nothing in creation happens all by itself, we know you were created.

 

You mind can not see right now but point #3 is not the same as #4. #3 is for the purposes to show God by definition is uncreated, while #4 is to show that if you want to take the position God is a god with gods before him that created him, then you have to revert back to #1 of an eternity past.

 

It is the 4 point perfect proof for God. Thank you Jesus Christ!

[quicksand]

I reject your modernist war god.

So your bible does not include the OT? Well?

 

God is not destroying the world to get rid of a handful of sinners. The world will eventually because that is its last 1000 years left. And it finalizes the removal of all sin as Satan is let out one last time for a brief period at that time.

Goal posts baby! Goal posts! Tim, James, Peter, John, Paul. 7th Day Adventists, and yourself!

 

In another 1000 years, you will move the goal posts again!

[Mr. Neil]

You forgot about the part where God brought about plagues upon the people of Egypt. Why? Because Pharoh wouldn't let the people go. Why? Because God hardened his heart. Oops!

[quicksand]

You forgot about the part where God brought about plagues upon the people of Egypt.  Why?  Because Pharoh wouldn't let the people go.  Why?  Because God hardened his heart.  Oops!

32 or 37 times if I remember correctly.

[Vixentrox]

Your god is a demon god who revels in blood, murder, retribution and war. Just read your bible for a change and you'll see what a monster your god is.