I Need Help Working This Out.

[mymistake]

The point being that just because something is illegal, does not mean there is something wrong with a person for wanting to do it. But if you would prefer that your "friend" was wracked with guilt for perfectly normal sexual feelings, that is up to you.

 

This is false.  I object to your claim that an adult actually having sex with a 15 year old isn't wrong.  You know: "If you get involved with her physically you will be treated like there is something wrong with you. There isn't, there is something wrong with the law in your country."

 

I made if very clear that there is nothing wrong with any thought as long as those thoughts do not lead to actions.  I do not want anybody to be wracked with guilt.  I would prefer that people be set free of it.  We will all find at some point that we are attracted to somebody where, for whatever reason, a relationship is not possible or would not be appropriate.  We don't have to feel guilty for being attracted.  But we must use reason to keep our actions proper.

[Galien]

I don't think it is up to governments to be telling us who we can fuck. Clearly you do. Laws are made by people just like you and me who are in a position of power to do so. I don't live by other people's MORAL constraints, but I am prepared to live by the LEGAL ones. Consequently it would be illegal and therefore pretty stupid to have sex with a fifteen year old. I don't think it would be wrong, and to be realisitic I have no interest in people that age. They grunt instead of speaking and never change their socks.

 

Society can tell me what is or is not legal, I will decide what is wrong.

[mymistake]

I don't think it is up to governments to be telling us who we can fuck. Clearly you do. Laws are made by people just like you and me who are in a position of power to do so. I don't live by other people's MORAL constraints, but I am prepared to live by the LEGAL ones. Consequently it would be illegal and therefore pretty stupid to have sex with a fifteen year old. I don't think it would be wrong, and to be realisitic I have no interest in people that age. They grunt instead of speaking and never change their socks.

 

Society can tell me what is or is not legal, I will decide what is wrong.

 

 

This thread is about the original poster.  You know, the person who asked for help.  

 

As described, the minor who is the object of this affection does not seem to show any romantic interest in the adult, seems to already be in a relationship and also, it would appear, is attracted to males.  The question was raised - what does it mean to be a creep.  I submit that "creep" means showing affection when the affection is not returned.  (Note I did not say having affection or feeling attracted.)  Showing affection inappropriately is how the word is generally used.  Every single person has the right to whatever thoughts they have.  But showing affection when it isn't appropriate can lead to all kinds of trouble.  That trouble is compounded if a relationship would be illegal even if the feelings were mutual.  Chasing somebody who isn't interested has legal and ethical ramifications.  Now hopefully that line was not crossed.  This is why I say do not give the slightest hint that this affection exists.

[JadedAtheist]

MM,

 

You chose to argue a side issue of Galien's and are now getting upset with her defending her statement? How about you stop trying to poke her with a stick?

 

Galien's comments are clear as day: Don't break the law, and no there's nothing wrong with you for having those feelings. As for her comments about an adult having sex with a 15 year old not being morally wrong, is of course your opinion to disagree with her and since you are in the US it is also backed by law (which is of course why Galien suggested not to act upon it).

 

However, it is not illegal in other countries, with some having an age of consent as low as 13 so obviously not everyone shares your views on this moral issue. What you consider to be morally wrong or right is your opinion, and what Galien considers to be morally wrong or right is hers. So, if you disagree that having sex with a 15 year old is not morally wrong, you are entitled to it but please stop attacking Galien for it as if it's something wrong to say because it's firstly off topic and obviously not backed by a majority consensus. If you wish to argue it is wrong, can you please start a new topic? Stop acting like Galien is the instigator as it's more than obvious that it is you. Take your beef with her privately.

 

Shall we get back on topic now that I've pointed out your foolish antics? 

[mymistake]

MM,

 

You chose to argue a side issue of Galien's and are now getting upset with her defending her statement? How about you stop trying to poke her with a stick?

 

Galien's comments are clear as day: Don't break the law, and no there's nothing wrong with you for having those feelings. As for her comments about an adult having sex with a 15 year old not being morally wrong, is of course your opinion to disagree with her and since you are in the US it is also backed by law (which is of course why Galien suggested not to act upon it).

 

However, it is not illegal in other countries, with some having an age of consent as low as 13 so obviously not everyone shares your views on this moral issue. What you consider to be morally wrong or right is your opinion, and what Galien considers to be morally wrong or right is hers. So, if you disagree that having sex with a 15 year old is not morally wrong, you are entitled to it but please stop attacking Galien for it as if it's something wrong to say because it's firstly off topic and obviously not backed by a majority consensus. If you wish to argue it is wrong, can you please start a new topic? Stop acting like Galien is the instigator as it's more than obvious that it is you. Take your beef with her privately.

 

Shall we get back on topic now that I've pointed out your foolish antics? 

 

I've been trying to keep it on topic.  Galien is the one trying to make everything about her personal history.  I know the two of you hate me but I have good reason for standing up for the people here.  My comments are about what is specifically legal in the OP's jurisdiction.  I find it offensive that Galien would tell the original poster that there is nothing wrong with actually acting on the impulse and broad brushing the laws of the US as being wrong.  This is reckless for reasons already stated.  This didn't happen in Germany.  This didn't happen in Mexico.  It didn't happen in any other country where the AoC is under 16.

 

As for attacking her . . . stop lying about me.  Go back and read page 2.  Then read it again until you ready to be honest out who did the attacking.

[Galien]

Nobody hates you mate, but there is something wrong with you.

[JadedAtheist]

My comments are about what is specifically legal in the OP's jurisdiction.  I find it offensive that Galien would tell the original poster that there is nothing wrong with actually acting on the impulse and broad brushing the laws of the US as being wrong.

This is what Galien said:

It is best to stay away until she is old enough according to the law, otherwise you will just end up in trouble.

 

As I stated and as Galien stated and now having quoted what Galien stated, it should be clear she never told her to break the law which was what you were claiming ("please don't give my friend advice that will lead them to jail"), and have now been proven wrong, you are more than welcome to concede the point and let go. Since you disagree with Galien's opinion regarding the laws of consent (which is what you actually took issue and argued over), as you mentioned yourself it is best to create a new topic to discuss the issue rather than trying to argue it here as you have been.

 

Is it now clear that you misread Galien's comment yet or do you wish to continue to act a fool?

[mymistake]

 

As I stated and as Galien stated and now having quoted what Galien stated, it should be clear she never told her to break the law which was what you were claiming ("please don't give my friend advice that will lead them to jail"), and have now been proven wrong, you are more than welcome to concede the point and let go.

 

 

You lie.  I am claiming that Galien said the US laws were wrong.  I've backed that claim up several times.  By now you know the disagreement is over the section I quoted.  Your lies and Galien's sexual harassment will not intimidate me anymore.

 

If an ex-C member is close to getting caught up on a scandal like the one that happened in Florida that isn't a minor issue.

[JadedAtheist]

 

 

As I stated and as Galien stated and now having quoted what Galien stated, it should be clear she never told her to break the law which was what you were claiming ("please don't give my friend advice that will lead them to jail"), and have now been proven wrong, you are more than welcome to concede the point and let go.

 

 

You lie.  I am claiming that Galien said the US laws were wrong.  I've backed that claim up several times.  By now you know the disagreement is over the section I quoted.  Your lies and Galien's sexual harassment will not intimidate me anymore.

 

If an ex-C member is close to getting caught up on a scandal like the one that happened in Florida that isn't a minor issue.

 

 

Galien did say the US laws are wrong in her opinion, I am not contending that nor is she. That is besides the point though since she advocated following the law which I have already shown so I have no idea why you can't see that and make the statement that you don't want advice given that will lead your friend to jail. From that it is quite evident that you're implying she said she should break the law. I cannot see it any other way so if that is not your intended meaning, clarify it.

 

I have also already pointed out that I realize you have an issue with Galien's opinion on the laws in the US and I have already stated that her opinion on the law and your opinion on the law doesn't matter because neither of you are advocating for this person to break the law (hence no concern needed for her going to jail). Is that getting through your skull yet? If Galien isn't advocating for her to break the law and in fact telling her to obey it, why must you continue this tirade? Must she also take back her opinion of the law to satisfy your ego?

 

I am beginning to question the wisdom of engaging with you. If you feel that I am lying to you, intimidating you and that Galien is sexually harassing you (lolled so fucking hard) it is becoming clear you probably have some sort of mental health issues. I do not intend to lie to you, intimidate you and I don't even hate you but your grudge against her is so clear it's not funny. I can see no reason for you to argue with her yet you still continue to say that you have a valid reason? What is that reason? If she told her to obey the law what reason do you have to argue about? Can you seriously not see the madness in your debate here?

 

In summary, if you were to ignore everything else in my post this would be the summary:

 

If we all agree on these points why are you continuing to argue?

 

1. Galien did not advocate breaking the law

2. Galien said that she should obey the law

[ExXex]

This situation sounds a bit similar to one my friend got into, and not like all things are the same but it ended pretty badly.

It's not bad to fancy her, you are both young people, and although the difference in maturity at 15 and 18 can be pretty big you are only 3 years apart.

But, what's worrying is 18 year olds are often looking for a different type of relationship to 15 year olds and coupled with her depression this can make for a pretty unequal balance of power. It could easily get to the point where she's relying on you to get her through her depression - and you're her shining angelical idealised figure. That's a big burden on you and will make things painful for her when things inevitably end and you're not there to lean on anymore and I don't think it's healthy for a girl just starting out with relationships (and her on-off thing with this boy sounds like she is just finding her feet) to get stuck into something like that.

You sound like you're having difficulty controlling your feelings, and it's not going to get better until you distance yourself from her and occupy yourself with other things, at least until you get things sorted in your head, as to your bisexuality or lack of, you'll sort it out eventually, often sexuality isn't a case of absolutes.

 

Just my 2 cents, hope you figure this out!

[qadeshet]

Your obsession with an underage girl is not healthy. Find a girl your own age who returns your feelings.

[Voice]

You're not sick, and yes, you're probably bi.

I didn't see whether you thought she liked you at all. If someone is on and off with a boyfriend/girlfriend,, you should investigate that. I'm not saying specifically this one girl, but anyone. Know whether they like you before you invest feelings and heart into it.

 

As to the underage arguments flailing about, read and weep. America sucks. Natural things are made illegal, and unnatural things are required by law.

Nature decrees that soon after a woman begins to bleed she may bear children. When humans enter puberty they become capable of passion, love, feelings for others, even building independent, functional relationships with one another.. Deny humans these things and they get all twisted up. It's not natural. It's a good thing <i>someone</i> is making money off of prison inmates these days. Leave it to good christian standards to fuck with nature. They do it well.

[Lilith666]

Your obsession with an underage girl is not healthy. Find a girl your own age who returns your feelings.

Thanks for your advice, but I'm just "finding my feet," like someone said. Everybody has crushes and everybody gets over them. And she has said she returns my feelings. And she will be my age in three years.

[mymistake]

 

 

Galien did say the US laws are wrong in her opinion, I am not contending that nor is she. 

 

Then don't make a big deal about it when I ask her to stop.  Are we done hijacking this thread?  I hope so.

[Galien]

 

Galien did say the US laws are wrong in her opinion, I am not contending that nor is she.

 

Then don't make a big deal about it when I ask her to stop. Are we done hijacking this thread? I hope so.

See, that's the bit you don't seem to understand. You are not my mother, but pretty well every time I express an opinion on anything, you try and tell me what to do, say or think. Voice agrees with me, you gonna tell him off too?

[JadedAtheist]

 

Galien did say the US laws are wrong in her opinion, I am not contending that nor is she.

Then don't make a big deal about it when I ask her to stop. Are we done hijacking this thread? I hope so.

You're the one hijacking it you moron and you haven't answered my question either. If she isn't telling her to break the law why are you trying to force Galien into doing what you want to do? Why accuse her of giving your friend advice that will lead them to jail? How can you still not see you are at fault? 

You are the one hijacking it and you are the one who is making a big deal. It's all you. Every single bit. Yet, you are trying to make it seem Galien is the one trying to make it about her? Can you not see this is what you are doing? If Galien didn't tell her to break the law as you've agreed to then your idiocy is simply over not liking her opinion on the law and causing this whole thread to become you and Galien fighting than about Lithith. This is all your selfish behaviour you prat and I won't let up till you stop passing the buck and admit it. At the very least take your own advice and try forcing Galien to submit to your opinion in another thread and for the record, you trying to force people to believe what you believe isn't normal behavior and most people would make it a "big deal" when others are trying to force them to do what they want. This isn't normal behavior MM, and you need to stop.  

[midniterider]

Galien gave good advice. She advised Lilith to follow the law even though US laws are rather retarded in some cases as they dont really take into account teenagers not too far apart in years getting interested in each other and having sex, which when you think of it is pretty normal sexual attraction. What is the really horrible crime - an 18 year old with a teen maturity having sex with a 15 year old with a teen maturity ... or a sophisticated 40 year old who knows exactly what to do to seduce a 15 year old? I think we both know, yet some asswipes have pressed courts to permanently assign registered sex offender status to 18 year olds forever because they did nothing more than have sex with a 15 year old. On the other hand when someone gets out of prison for homicide or any other non-sex crime no such registration is required.

 

Galien is correct that in the USA the attitude is prevalent that underage yet consensual sex is horrific and worse than any other crime. This is standard yet bad cultural programming. And when we apply logic, reason and critical thinking to this attitude we see it for the absurdity that it is.

 

Not all laws make sense in all cases. It is quite absurd to allow alcohol to be sold when so many people drive drunk and kill people. It's not right. Yet it's legal anyway cuz alchol manufacturers lobby to make sure it stays legal. It is still wrong to sell alcohol when so many people kill other people while drunk driving. It is our bad cultural programming that says alcohol is ok. But marijuana is the Devil's weed.

 

I think one of Galien's main point was that while you ought to follow the law so you don't go to jail there is sometimes a difference between right vs legal and wrong vs illegal.

 

From what I've read Lilith gets the point, understands the law (if she didnt before) and it is doubtful she will be driving several states away to immediately pursue sexual relations with an underage 15 year old whether Galien had responded or not.

 

That's my take on it. Hijacking the thread became irrelevent after the first few replies concerning the possible legal issues.

[mymistake]

Galien gave good advice. She advised Lilith to follow the law even though US laws are rather retarded in some cases as they dont really take into account teenagers not too far apart in years getting interested in each other and having sex, which when you think of it is pretty normal sexual attraction. What is the really horrible crime - an 18 year old with a teen maturity having sex with a 15 year old with a teen maturity ... or a sophisticated 40 year old who knows exactly what to do to seduce a 15 year old? I think we both know, yet some asswipes have pressed courts to permanently assign registered sex offender status to 18 year olds forever because they did nothing more than have sex with a 15 year old. 

 

 

I don't know.  Can you explain it?  Why should 18 year olds be allowed to pass all the risks of sex to 15 year olds?  What are the ethics of it?  Are you saying that an older person knows it is a dirtbag thing to do but the 18yo still can't understand the ramifications?

[mymistake]

 

 

Galien did say the US laws are wrong in her opinion, I am not contending that nor is she.

Then don't make a big deal about it when I ask her to stop. Are we done hijacking this thread? I hope so.

You're the one hijacking it you moron and you haven't answered my question either. If she isn't telling her to break the law why are you trying to force Galien into doing what you want to do? Why accuse her of giving your friend advice that will lead them to jail? How can you still not see you are at fault? 

You are the one hijacking it and you are the one who is making a big deal. It's all you. Every single bit. Yet, you are trying to make it seem Galien is the one trying to make it about her? Can you not see this is what you are doing? If Galien didn't tell her to break the law as you've agreed to then your idiocy is simply over not liking her opinion on the law and causing this whole thread to become you and Galien fighting than about Lithith. This is all your selfish behaviour you prat and I won't let up till you stop passing the buck and admit it. At the very least take your own advice and try forcing Galien to submit to your opinion in another thread and for the record, you trying to force people to believe what you believe isn't normal behavior and most people would make it a "big deal" when others are trying to force them to do what they want. This isn't normal behavior MM, and you need to stop.  

 

 

I asked her for something.  I even said please.  My motive was the ultimate self-centeredness of not wanting L666's real name dragged into a media circus and I didn't want her to face prison time.  How selfish of me.  Is disagreeing with Galien a crime?  Does disagreeing make everything you do and everything she does my fault?

 

Did I deserve to have her tell me "Bends over and regales you with her pretty pink asshole. Take some meds before you have another fit of apoplexy you silly anal retentive control freak. Doesn't take you long to bite does it sweetheart?"  Is that the level of respect that human beings rate?  Was that a reasonable response?

 

What exactly is it that makes me insane?  Is it that I think you are responsible for your posts?  Is it that I asked for something?  I've never tried to force Galien to do anything.  

[Voice]

You might not be bi, anyway; it's possible you're going through an exploratory phase and could end up something else.

[Lilith666]

Everyone: Galien does not think that I should break the law. She has said that will get me in trouble. MM misunderstood what Galien was trying to say and people's feelings got hurt. JadedAtheist is just defending Galien. Can we please get back on topic?

[JadedAtheist]

I asked her for something. I even said please. My motive was the ultimate self-centeredness of not wanting L666's real name dragged into a media circus and I didn't want her to face prison time. How selfish of me. Is disagreeing with Galien a crime? Does disagreeing make everything you do and everything she does my fault?

 

Quit misrepresenting the situation, you have an uncanny ability to project your actions as the actions of others. Galien did not tell her to break the law, you misrepresented that. You chose to argue over Galiens opinion while accusing her of being the one detracting from the topic. You are the one who is doing all he can to not admit to fault. You are the instigator and because of your grudge against Galien have turned this thread into selfish vendetta to attack her under the delusion that you are some white knight protecting the masses from Galien. You're obsession over her, your projecting your actions on others and your inability and unwillingness to see the truth is what makes me think you have mental issues. Your fantasy isn't real and it isn't healthy. If you say on one hand you want her to stop arguing her opinion and on the other hand say you aren't forcing her to do anything, that is a blatant lie that you can't see or are unwilling to admit. Leave Galien alone and get help.

[JadedAtheist]

Also, since Lilith and midniterrider have pointed out that they understood Galien's point so your whole tangent has been proven to be a misunderstanding so STFU and quit falsely accusing her.

 

I'm sorry for what's happened in this thread Lilith but I felt it wasn't right to let MM continue to harass Galien and build up this fantasy that he is protecting you from her. I'm glad you understood what she said and I will respect your wishes and will not engage MM further dispute his delusional tirades.

[Galien]

I guess some people have a very black and white view of the world and can only see things one way. This whole topic is extremely emotive, and if I hadn't pretty well been seduced by a 16 year old when I was 45 I may have held similar views. The world is not a one size fits all affair and things are not always black and white. Sometimes it takes experience and intelligence to see that. Some people won't see it even then. To assume that when there is a relationship between an older and younger person, that the power is always in the hands of the older person is ridiculous, but some people want to believe that.

 

I think some people still think sex is dirty even after leaving christianity. Sex is the most natural thing in the world. It is a shame human beings have managed to pollute it so badly.

 

Good thing Lilith is a smart girl to start with

[Galien]

 

 

 

Galien did say the US laws are wrong in her opinion, I am not contending that nor is she.

Then don't make a big deal about it when I ask her to stop. Are we done hijacking this thread? I hope so.

You're the one hijacking it you moron and you haven't answered my question either. If she isn't telling her to break the law why are you trying to force Galien into doing what you want to do? Why accuse her of giving your friend advice that will lead them to jail? How can you still not see you are at fault? 

You are the one hijacking it and you are the one who is making a big deal. It's all you. Every single bit. Yet, you are trying to make it seem Galien is the one trying to make it about her? Can you not see this is what you are doing? If Galien didn't tell her to break the law as you've agreed to then your idiocy is simply over not liking her opinion on the law and causing this whole thread to become you and Galien fighting than about Lithith. This is all your selfish behaviour you prat and I won't let up till you stop passing the buck and admit it. At the very least take your own advice and try forcing Galien to submit to your opinion in another thread and for the record, you trying to force people to believe what you believe isn't normal behavior and most people would make it a "big deal" when others are trying to force them to do what they want. This isn't normal behavior MM, and you need to stop.  

 

 

I asked her for something.  I even said please.  My motive was the ultimate self-centeredness of not wanting L666's real name dragged into a media circus and I didn't want her to face prison time.  How selfish of me.  Is disagreeing with Galien a crime?  Does disagreeing make everything you do and everything she does my fault?

 

Did I deserve to have her tell me "Bends over and regales you with her pretty pink asshole. Take some meds before you have another fit of apoplexy you silly anal retentive control freak. Doesn't take you long to bite does it sweetheart?"  Is that the level of respect that human beings rate?  Was that a reasonable response?

 

What exactly is it that makes me insane?  Is it that I think you are responsible for your posts?  Is it that I asked for something?  I've never tried to force Galien to do anything.  

 

 

Thing is mate, EVERY time I express an opinion on anything, you have a little hissy fit. The debacle last time over the porn thing caused me quite a bit of distress. I might bite hard but I am a pretty emotionally fragile person, and I don't appreciate being hauled over the coals every time I open my mouth like I am a naughty student and you are my headmaster, and it is your job to tell me what to think. I'd kind of like it if you would stop that too.

 

It is unlikely you will ever get a reasonable response out of me when you choose to take that path. I have my own issues with perfectionism and it is pretty clear you do too. You remind me of the scrupulousness I had as a christian and I can spot it pretty quickly. You need to take a look at how the topics we discuss hook into that and why. You don't seem to have much insight into that, and it causes us some problems when we discuss things.