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Modesty And Thought Crimes


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Kinda lengthy exploration of the problem, but hey: to me, it's not the fact people are / are not / whatever considered hot. It's the way society deals with it after the fact. Someone (usually female) is dressing scantily, is considered hot, and everyone decides that that's a bad thing (WTF?). She's a fallen woman, seductress, defined as an "objectified" victim, etc. The problem, of course, for a girl, is that there's no way to win this: "nice girls don't, but fun girls do." And then, as the other side of the coin, society at large ignores female sexuality entirely. Sure, there's the assumption that fun girls do, but very little concessions are made as to what fun girls actually like (implying that the fun girls that do are there in the function of a blow-up doll sad.png ). (Yes, this is, in fact, a major disincentive to hopping into bed with people: why bother if they don't care about what you like in the sack and are just using you anyway? In other terms, cultural attitudes "objectifying" women as living sex toys yet treating men as non-sexualized are actually restricting opportunities for sex. Ironic, I know.) Boobies? The moral guardians get all in a tizzy. But there's not so much mention or attention given to men dressing sexily. Which, in my opinion, is a cryin' shame. (On the other hand, it slips past the radar when it happens, which is a nice bonus.)

The example: video games.

Remember the furore over Lara Croft's booty and gazongas in Tomb Raider? Nice retrospective, so you can see the character model. Lara Croft isn't the only sexualized female in video games, to be sure, but she's the one that anti-video game moral crusaders seem to latch on to. Yet, sexualized characters aren't necessarily a bad thing. Dead or Alive, for example, is a rather good fighting game, "jiggle physics" (yes, really) aside. (It works sort of like rock-paper-scissors, with a circular system of move priority.)

Yet, there's no mention of the many, many, sexualized males in video games. (I, for one, am glad they're there. It won't save a bad game, but it does add a little extra incentive to play.) Vagrant Story, for example, an excellent game for the old Playstation, had practically the entire male cast in various bondage gear, arm armour yet bare chests, metal codpieces, and the protagonist in tight sheer shirt-apron-thing and a thong and assless chaps. "Harlot" indeed. In other news, Hideo Kojima likes nice butts. Play the Metal Gear Solid games, and you'll be spending hours looking at Snake's taught, spandex-covered butt framed in harness straps. You can't not look at it. There's a reason, too, that the Legacy of Kain series has a large female fanbase. It's not just about a perpetual struggle against fate, and tight storytelling. It has to do with perpetual shirtlessness, and tight leather pants.

The reason for this? Same reason for Lara Croft's short shorts. A lot of ladies play Male!Shepard in MassEffect, and there was clamouring for male romance options for him. (Yes, the male/male romance options were originally deleted, then reinstated in later content, after much to-do. Yet, there was always Liara as an option for Female!Shepard. This is what I mean: the guys and lesbians can have their girl on girl, but guy on guy is (even more) controversial.) The reason for this? The same one as for Lara Croft's short shorts: the camera is centred on the character, and, if I'm going to spend 40+ hours staring at someone's butt, it would be nice if it were a hot one.

What does all this have to do with cultural issues and modesty? Well, I, for one, would appreciate it if female sexuality weren't invisible. I am not a sex toy. Perhaps, the first step is exactly this: visibility. Yes, women are sexual creatures too. They check people out, just as much as men do. Yet, culturally denying that sexuality, in calls for more "modesty" or less "objectification" of women, is not dealing directly with the real problem. It's the attitude of denial of female sexuality that has to go. Therefore, to remedy the situation, I call for sluttier clothing for everyone!

(P.S. Yes, gentlemen, this does imply that wearing sharp outfits, tight pants and sexy clothes will help your love life. It implies, subtly, that you care what she likes in bed, and, therefore, are a safer emotional bet than others in a hostile cultural environment. P.P.S. Some historical background, to clarify on the point of "feminazis.") //end rant.

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Having read some of the OP's articles blogs other posts, I've gotta say, the writer of the blog is clearly anything but modest. She comes acrossed as arrogant and selfabsorbed. Even in the article, th

The whole "modesty"  thing keeping men in line is bullshit.  Go to the middle east and you will see men leering at a woman if they catch a glimpse of her wrist or ankle.  Men lusting after women is hu

I hate the word objectify, its so vague and imprecise. And is used to mean several different things. I can see using it to mean seeing women solely as a sex object, which I agree is wrong, but its suc

Stop reading my posts and telling my parents. This site is supposed to be confidential. You're a jerk and a jack ass whoever you are. Thanks also for hurting my folks. Good Christian actions. NOT.

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Therefore, to remedy the situation, I call for sluttier clothing for everyone!

 

Hear hear! yellow.gif

I mean I think often female sexuality is seen as something a woman has to give rather than something she enjoys for herself. Which is why I'd like to add to that; big obnoxious vibrators hanging out of your pockets for everyone!

 

Also I loved Lara Croft - she could kick butt while not letting her massive boobs get in her way; sexy and capable! Some people might see her as just a short shorted bottom but that didn't negate her jumping off rocks and battling piranha skills. Which is why the whole rapey origin story they put in there kinda irked me, but I digress!

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I hate the word objectify, its so vague and imprecise. And is used to mean several different things. I can see using it to mean seeing women solely as a sex object, which I agree is wrong, but its such an overused word. It doesn't even apply to half of what its applied to.

 

 

Thought crime sucks.  How do you know if somebody's thoughts are criminal?  You can't read their mind.  What should we do if somebody's thoughts are wrong?

 

The whole thing is problematic.  I prefer to focus on actions.  Actions are objective.  They can be measured and recorded.

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Eh, I'm not so sure about that. One of the most horrifying things to me, admitting to myself that I prefer women, was that I found myself looking at other women the way I always hated it when men looked at me. But it's not something I can just stop, so I had to figure out what's really going on and what my ethical reaction to this new aspect of reality should be. And here's how it works for me:

 

Some days I'm more in the mood to lust than others. Some clothes trigger lust in me more than others, but from talking to hetero men I've realized that not everyone's lust triggers are the same. If I see a hot stranger walking along, I don't know enough about them to want them as a person; all I know of them is their body. And my body reacts to that. So does some portion of my mind, throwing up images of what I'd like to do with that body.

 

But the mintue one of those people I've been lusting after makes eye contact, or gets close enough to me that we're in conversation range, things... change. It's that shifting gears feeling you get when startled. The lust drops off, and the social part of my brain takes over and treats them like a real human being instead of a lust object. As long as that shift remains in place, and I never act on the lust (not saying that it's wrong to ask someone out - what I mean is that if I want any of my fantasies to be fullfilled with that person, I have to keep my physical distance and use words to ask, and take no for an answer, and just generally realize that I have absolutely no right to have any of my lust desires fulfilled by that other person), then it's ok.

 

I'd say that even among commited, loving couple objectification can happen sometimes, and that's not always a bad thing. I'm sure there's some days where a partner says "I love you so much, I want to express that physically", and other days where it's "I want a physical release, and you're here, so you wanna help?" We are animals, after all. The problem is when you don't override the objectification with all the social stuff about consent and politeness and all that, when you think that your objectification is The Way Things Should Be and the entire purpose and function of some other human being. The lust, the objectification, is a fantasy inside your own head that doesn't reflect reality. Nothing wrong with having an imagination, but there's a serious problem when you can't tell your daydreams from reality.

 

 

I think women use certain phrases as code words.  If you were holding an assault rifle you wouldn't have felt right shooting that person your were "objectifying" prior to making eye-contact.  You were treating them like a real human being the whole time.  You have instincts to mate just like the rest of us.  When you feel one of those instincts in your mind that isn't objectification.  It's desire.  Objectifying is what serial killers do to their victims just prior to killing those victims.  Okay, contemplating rape with intent would be objectification too.  Wanting to have mutually-affectionate sex isn't objectification.

 

Other code phrases I've seen:

 

"like a piece of meat"  Uh, ladies I don't think this one communicates the idea you are getting across.  I see so many women use that phase and when they do it sounds to men like "I sure wish I wasn't attractive".  Why would a woman wish that she wasn't attractive?  Maybe instead women are trying to say "Please don't stare because it is rude".  Well if so then perhaps it would be better to say that instead.  "He looked at me like I was a piece of meat" doesn't convey "staring is rude" at least not to a man.

 

Humans mate because we are mammals.  Looking is the early stage of the courtship rituals for humans.  The vast majority of this looking results in one party not being interested in the other.  The ritual doesn't progress when it's not mutual attraction.

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Other code phrases I've seen:

 

"like a piece of meat"  Uh, ladies I don't think this one communicates the idea you are getting across.  I see so many women use that phase and when they do it sounds to men like "I sure wish I wasn't attractive".  Why would a woman wish that she wasn't attractive?  Maybe instead women are trying to say "Please don't stare because it is rude".  Well if so then perhaps it would be better to say that instead.  "He looked at me like I was a piece of meat" doesn't convey "staring is rude" at least not to a man.

 

I thought the "piece of meat" phrase meant "he views me as he would view at item in the supermarket that has no thoughts and desires of its own".

 

And yes, sometimes women wish they weren't attractive at that moment, that it was something that you could turn off with a switch when you didn't want to deal with the attention. The way you dress helps a little, but it's not a guarantee. At least other animals change their physical appearance much more drastically during mating season. There's not a damn thing I can do to stop being recognizably female (I'm too curvy to pull off androgenous - baggy t-shirt and jeans gets less attention but not zero). In fact, that whole "I wish I wasn't attractive" led to me having bad posture for years, because good posture means waving your boobs around and I didn't want them to stick out that much. I have heard a few other women make similar comments, so I can't be the only one who feels that way.

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I think the piece of meat thing is more like 'he's staring at me like he doesn't realise I've noticed he's staring at me and would feel a bit uncomfortable being sized-up like that, unlike a piece of meat who wouldn't feel uncomfortable due to not having a working brain and it exists to be consumed rather than also walk around feeling uncomfortable about things' instead of anything to do with attractiveness. Like you look at meat a certain way because it's sole existence is for you to eat, but some women aren't there for you to eat. I unno, it makes sense to me. Like sometimes women get comments like 'I'd fuck you' as if that's a question they've asked of the random douchebag who has just said it by their mere presence.

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LOL - I had the exact same reaction this morning on my commute when someone posted a link on FB. Some days I just want to drop all my christian friends - they post such bullshit and I 'have to' keep quiet (for now) because most of them don't know I'm atheist yet...

 

Yep, that's what I'm dealing with too. I don't think it would be a good idea to "come out" by blasting them on Facebook...although it is tempting sometimes!

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Therefore, to remedy the situation, I call for sluttier clothing for everyone!

 

Hear hear! yellow.gif

I mean I think often female sexuality is seen as something a woman has to give rather than something she enjoys for herself. Which is why I'd like to add to that; big obnoxious vibrators hanging out of your pockets for everyone!

 

Also I loved Lara Croft - she could kick butt while not letting her massive boobs get in her way; sexy and capable! Some people might see her as just a short shorted bottom but that didn't negate her jumping off rocks and battling piranha skills. Which is why the whole rapey origin story they put in there kinda irked me, but I digress!

 

 

My whole impression as a Christian girl was that girls didn't have any sexuality at all, it was only the guys who had that and they had diminished ability to control it. That was our responsibility as godly women -  to help the guys not to struggle with this heavy burden they carried. Once you were married it was supposed to switch on like a a lightbulb of course. 

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I found that too! Maybe because the pastors etc. in churches are generally male, I dunno whether they were ignorant of young females possessing libidos or just found the idea of it icky. It always made me laugh when they talked about porn etc. and suggested it was a primarily male issue that we needed to be understanding about, and the frustrations of being an unmarried Christian woman were simply those of not having someone to share their lives with. It was like we were expected to have an understanding of male sexuality while completely ignoring our own. Which I see as a handy tool to keep women subjugated!

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Other code phrases I've seen:

 

"like a piece of meat"  Uh, ladies I don't think this one communicates the idea you are getting across.  I see so many women use that phase and when they do it sounds to men like "I sure wish I wasn't attractive".  Why would a woman wish that she wasn't attractive?  Maybe instead women are trying to say "Please don't stare because it is rude".  Well if so then perhaps it would be better to say that instead.  "He looked at me like I was a piece of meat" doesn't convey "staring is rude" at least not to a man.

 

I thought the "piece of meat" phrase meant "he views me as he would view at item in the supermarket that has no thoughts and desires of its own".

 

 

Not even a rapist does that.  A rapist realizes that his victim has desires and will say no.  The rapist chooses to use some method to overcome the desires of the victim.  I've never met a man who wants to have sex with a pork roast.  It's the standard Mars vs. Venus miscommunication.

 

 

And yes, sometimes women wish they weren't attractive at that moment, that it was something that you could turn off with a switch when you didn't want to deal with the attention.

 

 

I didn't realize that.  So sorry.

 

 

The way you dress helps a little, but it's not a guarantee. At least other animals change their physical appearance much more drastically during mating season. There's not a damn thing I can do to stop being recognizably female (I'm too curvy to pull off androgenous - baggy t-shirt and jeans gets less attention but not zero). In fact, that whole "I wish I wasn't attractive" led to me having bad posture for years, because good posture means waving your boobs around and I didn't want them to stick out that much. I have heard a few other women make similar comments, so I can't be the only one who feels that way.

 

 

 

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Guess what hetro guys like boobs. It's a fact. I bet Jesus liked boobs too.

 

 

It really doesn't matter what women are wearing.

 

Actually, I have read somewhere (not sure how accurate the source was, but I might look for it and share it here) that says it's not actually natural for men to be attracted to boobs and that it's actually a learned attraction that appeared at one time and then remained as a part of modern culture and now seems natural because of how many men are attracted to them.

 

Well, now I can't find the source I found about this a while back.

 

Ah, wait, I found it: http://broadblogs.com/2010/11/04/men-aren%E2%80%99t-hard-wired-to-find-breasts-attractive/

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Wait a second, have I been reading this wrong?

 

When women say "objectification" are they talking only about the desire for men to not look at them?  That is to say it is nothing else sexual?

 

I've never met a man who thinks that it is wrong to look at a woman in public.  Touching without permission is wrong.  Invading privacy is wrong.  But looking at people in public is fair game in the mind of all men.  I would wager the only men who don't look at an attractive women are avoiding it because they think it will actually get them laid.  Hetero men look at attractive women simply because doing so makes them feel good.

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Which is what objectification is. Did we say you could look at us so you can "feel good". Dirty perves. Go check out a sunset or something. Fuck.

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Which is what objectification is. Did we say you could look at us so you can "feel good". Dirty perves. Go check out a sunset or something. Fuck.

 

So you think you have the right to tell men what they can do with their bodies?  Interesting.  What gives you that right?

 

Personally I've never wanted to have a sexual relationship with a sunset.  Not that it is even possible.  Not that I would have to do what you tell me.

 

By the way you are using shame as a weapon, again.  I didn't design human sexuality, nor human mating rituals, nor cause men to enjoy looking at women.  It was the way I was born.  I merely shared information with you.  This is not decent behavior. 

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Which is what objectification is. Did we say you could look at us so you can "feel good". Dirty perves. Go check out a sunset or something. Fuck.

 

So you think you have the right to tell men what they can do with their bodies?  Interesting.  What gives you that right?

 

Personally I've never wanted to have a sexual relationship with a sunset.  Not that it is even possible.  Not that I would have to do what you tell me.

 

By the way you are using shame as a weapon, again.  I didn't design human sexuality, nor human mating rituals, nor cause men to enjoy looking at women.  It was the way I was born.  I merely shared information with you.  This is not decent behavior. 

 

 

Neither is it decent behaviour to have a conversation with my rack instead of me. But hey, you are men, the world is your oyster.

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Wait a second, have I been reading this wrong?

 

When women say "objectification" are they talking only about the desire for men to not look at them?  That is to say it is nothing else sexual?

 

I've never met a man who thinks that it is wrong to look at a woman in public.  Touching without permission is wrong.  Invading privacy is wrong.  But looking at people in public is fair game in the mind of all men.  I would wager the only men who don't look at an attractive women are avoiding it because they think it will actually get them laid.  Hetero men look at attractive women simply because doing so makes them feel good.

 

Depends what you mean by "looking at", and no, that's not all of it. Men who stare, leer... yeah, that's aggressive behavior. Humans (like many other animals) consider long periods of staring to be threatening, aggressive behavior. Would you maintain that kind of eye contact with a man and expect him not to think you were trying to start a fight? It's as much the dominance games and aggressive body langage as it is the sexual content. A guy thinks you're going to beat him up, and woman thinks you're going to rape her.

 

In other areas of life, objectification is when men refuse to acknowledge women's equality. There's a lot of times in a business setting where a woman will express an idea, be ignored, then later in the same meeting a man will "come up with" the same idea and get praise and credit for it (not that that doesn't happen to men who are lower on the pecking order too). Objectification is about the glass ceiling, about men keeping women employees around as eye candy and coffee fetchers with no expectation of them advancing their career. Objectification is when men in positions of authority expect the women under them to be sexually available. It's when a woman goes to a tech meeting and is treated as an outsider who can't possibly be skilled at that stuff. Basically, whenever guys treat women as sexual being only, and refuse to also treat them as human beings with valid ideas to contribute. (Where some women overreact is failing to realize that some guys are capable of doing both at once; after too many experiences with guys who treat "hot" and "intelligent" as mutually exclusive categories, it's easy to get cynical.)

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If you want to ease us off, dress modestly.  It's common sense.  If you want to dress super sexy, do it with a man at your side or with your loyal man servants who will guard you, or with your girlfriends. 

 

 

This is a parody, right? Right? Please?

 

I guess it's good to sometimes have a reminder that rejecting Christianity doesn't confer upon a person any other particular positive attributes.

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Which is what objectification is. Did we say you could look at us so you can "feel good". Dirty perves. Go check out a sunset or something. Fuck.

 

So you think you have the right to tell men what they can do with their bodies?  Interesting.  What gives you that right?

 

Personally I've never wanted to have a sexual relationship with a sunset.  Not that it is even possible.  Not that I would have to do what you tell me.

 

By the way you are using shame as a weapon, again.  I didn't design human sexuality, nor human mating rituals, nor cause men to enjoy looking at women.  It was the way I was born.  I merely shared information with you.  This is not decent behavior. 

 

 

Neither is it decent behaviour to have a conversation with my rack instead of me. But hey, you are men, the world is your oyster.

 

 

I have done nothing of the kind.  You claim you are not judgmental but your actions have been very judgmental.  Can we have an adult conversation without personal attacks?

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Wait a second, have I been reading this wrong?

 

When women say "objectification" are they talking only about the desire for men to not look at them?  That is to say it is nothing else sexual?

 

I've never met a man who thinks that it is wrong to look at a woman in public.  Touching without permission is wrong.  Invading privacy is wrong.  But looking at people in public is fair game in the mind of all men.  I would wager the only men who don't look at an attractive women are avoiding it because they think it will actually get them laid.  Hetero men look at attractive women simply because doing so makes them feel good.

 

Depends what you mean by "looking at", and no, that's not all of it. Men who stare, leer... yeah, that's aggressive behavior. Humans (like many other animals) consider long periods of staring to be threatening, aggressive behavior. Would you maintain that kind of eye contact with a man and expect him not to think you were trying to start a fight? It's as much the dominance games and aggressive body langage as it is the sexual content. A guy thinks you're going to beat him up, and woman thinks you're going to rape her.

 

In other areas of life, objectification is when men refuse to acknowledge women's equality. There's a lot of times in a business setting where a woman will express an idea, be ignored, then later in the same meeting a man will "come up with" the same idea and get praise and credit for it (not that that doesn't happen to men who are lower on the pecking order too). Objectification is about the glass ceiling, about men keeping women employees around as eye candy and coffee fetchers with no expectation of them advancing their career. Objectification is when men in positions of authority expect the women under them to be sexually available. It's when a woman goes to a tech meeting and is treated as an outsider who can't possibly be skilled at that stuff. Basically, whenever guys treat women as sexual being only, and refuse to also treat them as human beings with valid ideas to contribute. (Where some women overreact is failing to realize that some guys are capable of doing both at once; after too many experiences with guys who treat "hot" and "intelligent" as mutually exclusive categories, it's easy to get cynical.)

 

 

Thank you for clarifying.  I still think the word objectifying does a poor job at communicating.  I would recommend people describe the behavior and focus on that.

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I hate the word objectify, its so vague and imprecise. And is used to mean several different things. I can see using it to mean seeing women solely as a sex object, which I agree is wrong, but its such an overused word. It doesn't even apply to half of what its applied to.

 

 

Thought crime sucks.  How do you know if somebody's thoughts are criminal?  You can't read their mind.  What should we do if somebody's thoughts are wrong?

 

The whole thing is problematic.  I prefer to focus on actions.  Actions are objective.  They can be measured and recorded.

 

Technically though, they can see them however they'd like in their minds. I was specifically talking about when certain men (and women) stare down a woman (or man) not because they find them attractive, but because they see them in their minds as a tool to get their jollies off. As you put it in another post, its that "sociopathic stalking stare" thing, where they stalk their prey, kind of thing. I've been on the recieving end of that from both women and men, and its not comfortable. Whereas I've always found people looking at me as attractive flattering.

 

I doubt this is what women refer to alone as objectification, as it doesn't seem all too common amongst normal men. Normal men look at women with the thought "she (a human being) looks attractive". Not, "that looks like it'd be fun."

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Which is what objectification is. Did we say you could look at us so you can "feel good". Dirty perves. Go check out a sunset or something. Fuck.

 

So you think you have the right to tell men what they can do with their bodies?  Interesting.  What gives you that right?

 

Personally I've never wanted to have a sexual relationship with a sunset.  Not that it is even possible.  Not that I would have to do what you tell me.

 

By the way you are using shame as a weapon, again.  I didn't design human sexuality, nor human mating rituals, nor cause men to enjoy looking at women.  It was the way I was born.  I merely shared information with you.  This is not decent behavior. 

 

 

Neither is it decent behaviour to have a conversation with my rack instead of me. But hey, you are men, the world is your oyster.

 

 

I have done nothing of the kind.  You claim you are not judgmental but your actions have been very judgmental.  Can we have an adult conversation without personal attacks?

 

 

You really are utterly humourless aren't you?

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You also smell funny!

 

Ahem. Just kidding.

 

 

I think it's important to note the difference between looking and leering - a beautiful woman/man enters the room and all eyes turn to them, fair enough, one pair of eyes stays on them, looking them up and down, focusing on their boobs or butt, turning their head to follow said butt across the room, beautiful person looks at butt looker, butt looker continues looking at butt. This is expected behaviour if said beautiful person is working in a strip club, maybe not so much if it's in a supermarket - that's the thing, most women don't want to be made to feel like a stripper in a strip club when they're just buying their cereal.

Sure if they are dressed kinda strippery then maybe they do (and hey if that floats their boat personally I have no problem with that, but reserve the right to laugh to myself if it looks funny), but if they're dressed in the sort of clothing that may be perceived as 'immodest' by nice Christian bloggers because a bit of ankle is on show but still doesn't belong in the strip club, the leering is probably rather un-looked for.

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As a Christian, I fucking hate it when a man--and that is every man despite any person preference I might have--refuses to dress modestly because he is forcing me sin by lusting after him, so I have compiled a list of things men can do if they don't want to find themselves being jumped by women.

 

1.  Always wear a hat.  Women are just naturally attracted to mens hair, or lack thereof, so cover those beautiful strands or bald head.  But the hat must be worn properly or else we will get a glimpse of the head and go wild and viciously rape you.

2.  Never wear an undershirt without an shirt on top.  Wife beaters are like bras to us.  If you show of the curvature of your torso, we will be forced to rape you.

3.  Always wear sensible sleeves.  A tank top on men is like the bikini to us women, and showing off those strong arms puts us into a frenzied sexual warpath that will result in you getting raped.

4.  Wear your pants at your waist.  Not at your hips or hanging below your butt.  Us women are naturally drawn to look lasciviously at all mens crotches, so by wearing trousers that fit around the hips, it only facilitates us to find your crotch.  The wearing of the trousers around or below the butt excites us even more to rape.

5.  Wear shorts that are modestly short.  The hem of the shorts should not go above the knee.

6.  Full shoes must be worn at all times.  Bare feet excites us.

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