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the concept of freewill always confused me. The christan god gave humans to ability to make decisions, but not to control their feelings and desires. What is so great about freewill if our only choises are to fight our own desires?

god didnt want us be his slaves but he also wants us to follow his rules. So we have the freedom to make choises, but only the right one. and if we dont then we go to hell. this is not freedom, this is torture.

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The truth is, we don't really have freewill.  In a biblical sense and in a human sense.  If it's in our nature to sin, then we are never free of that nature that is always looking to influence us while here on earth.  According to scripture it corrupts our thoughts, it drives us to do things we don't want to do...  So, how in the world can we ever be free of it to have our own will?  And how fair is that anyway?  "Here run this fucking race with one entire leg and half of another, and you better win, mother fucker or else it's the eternal smoking section for you!!!"

 

So, we're placed on earth with a desire to do bad (scripture) influenced always by our flesh and our mind but we're to believe that at some point in this life, we are free of all influenced - both inward and outward, to make a decision.  You see, within the framing of Christianity and the picture it paints of "fallen man" it is completely impossible to have free will.

 

My favorite statement to make to Christians who do believe in free will is... "So you believe in free will, eh?  Then stop sinning."

 

Romans 7:16-20

16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

 

Oh shit! Why am I preaching?!!!!

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God gave us free will, not to help us, but to condemn us. That's why Xtians like free will so much.

Is it free will when not a single humnan can successgfully choose to commit no sin?

SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE NEGATIVE. bill

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The confusion stems from the dishonest way Christians portray free will.

Christians that advertise universal free will have to ignore many verses that indicate predestination is an integral part of the Christian New Testament.

Predestination, at least for some people, is clearly taught in the Bible.

If the script is already written by God, then the will of individual is irrelevant.

They also ignore clear cases where God manipulates human behavior to ensure a particular outcome.

Christian free will is pretty much a fraudulent talking point.

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The confusion stems from the dishonest way Christians portray free will.

Christians that advertise universal free will have to ignore many verses that indicate predestination is an integral part of Christian New Testament.

Predestination, at least for some people, is clearly taught in the Bible.

If the script is already written by God, then the will of individual is irrelevant.

They also ignore that clear cases where God manipulates human behavior to ensure a particular outcome.

Christian free will is pretty much a fraudulent talking point.

Excellent points!

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Freewill in christianity is an illusion for several reason, all of which are biblical:

 

1) God is omnipotent

2) God is omniscient

3) The bible is literally true, so revelation has to happen

4) Everything that happens is god's will

5) Every christian is appointed once to die (or however that goes)

 

Since each christian has a preset destination, the journey to that destination is totally irrelevant.

 

Talk about a life with no meaning.

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Where is the phrase "free will" even used in the Bible. If I really have free will, why can't I conform to the emotions demanded from the Bible? Why can't I choose to go to heaven despite my emotion crime? If hell really is a choice, why should I fear it because I wouldn't choose it? I would find heaven the better choice. If hell is a choice, why is it "The Last Judgement" and not the "Last Choice". "The Last Judgement" doesn't sound like a choice.

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Free will is a rope God gives to everyone, even those he knows are incapable of handling it. "Now go hang yourself with it for all eternity, because I love you."
-God

 

I love this quote from your signature LC. It accurately describes this "free will" Christians talk about so much. Because of the actions of the first two humans, all of us are automatically programmed to do terrible things to each other and disobey "The One True God™". We get this long list of laws to obey that we obviously can't follow because of this programming of ours, so the only way for us to be redeemed is for something innocent to die.

 

Sounds kind of like we've been shoved into an ocean where we can't swim, only for "The One True God™" to send us a lifeboat. The only real choice we get is to be his sex slaves (metaphorically speaking, as a thank you for him drowning and reviving his son) and get into the life boat. If at any time we fail to be good slaves afterwards, we get thrown back into the water. If we fail to trust him because of his actions and don't have faith, well, we get left in the water to drown.

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It gets really trippy when you start considering if christians can sin in heaven and if not does god either take away our free will or do we keep our free will but cant sin if so what was the point of all this? If we can sin in heaven then again what was the point of earth anyway.

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Then you have the paradox with the tree of good and evil. God punishes man for eating from the tree because disobedience to god is evil. But until they ate of the tree how could they have known that since they had no knowlege of good and evil?

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Wait a minute. People say that sending people to hell is good because it prevents evil people from wrecking havock in heaven. If that's the case, then wouldn't evil not be a threat if their evil is sucked out of them and they become good. If they still can do evil, wouldn't it not be evil if it doesn't cause suffering. If suffering is physically impossible in heaven, couldn't you have as much sex, booze, and sin and not suffer any consequences. What is the point of morality if there are no negative consequences to one's actions?

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Then you have god telling adam about the tree tells him not to touch it and then places it in the garden within easy reach. Thats like telling a little kid not to eat a cookie the placing the cookie jar right in front of the kid in easy reach.

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Then you have god telling adam about the tree tells him not to touch it and then places it in the garden within easy reach. Thats like telling a little kid not to eat a cookie the placing the cookie jar right in front of the kid in easy reach.

 

Or more like laying aspirin on the table in easy reach and telling the kid not to swallow the aspirin.

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Free will is a rope God gives to everyone, even those he knows are incapable of handling it. "Now go hang yourself with it for all eternity, because I love you."

-God

 

I love this quote from your signature LC. It accurately describes this "free will" Christians talk about so much. Because of the actions of the first two humans, all of us are automatically programmed to do terrible things to each other and disobey "The One True God™". We get this long list of laws to obey that we obviously can't follow because of this programming of ours, so the only way for us to be redeemed is for something innocent to die.

 

Sounds kind of like we've been shoved into an ocean where we can't swim, only for "The One True God™" to send us a lifeboat. The only real choice we get is to be his sex slaves (metaphorically speaking, as a thank you for him drowning and reviving his son) and get into the life boat. If at any time we fail to be good slaves afterwards, we get thrown back into the water. If we fail to trust him because of his actions and don't have faith, well, we get left in the water to drown.

Thanks, the Holy Spirit inspired that one evening. 

 

Definitely right about the rest.  He certainly seems to enjoy teaching us lessons about his love through suffering (which is also of his own doing).  So precious of him.

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Wait a minute. People say that sending people to hell is good because it prevents evil people from wrecking havock in heaven. If that's the case, then wouldn't evil not be a threat if their evil is sucked out of them and they become good. If they still can do evil, wouldn't it not be evil if it doesn't cause suffering. If suffering is physically impossible in heaven, couldn't you have as much sex, booze, and sin and not suffer any consequences. What is the point of morality if there are no negative consequences to one's actions?

 

The version I've heard more of is that unchristians would never be happy in heaven, so it's god being merciful to not send them there. See in revelation, where god is so kind as to give them a taste of hell, then the 1000 year dictatorship that's a taste of heaven, and then there's still a revolt? I don't really get that logic... it makes as much sense as sending in the military (or drones) to kill off people in a foreign country, putting a puppet governement in place, and then feeling offended when they don't just love you and fawn over your wonderfulness for "freeing" them.

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Being set on fire and getting a pitchfork up your ass seems so wonderful. I can't wait to have that happen. It would be so merciful to send Muslims to hell who pray five times a day to him yet believe Jesus was a prophet not a diety. It would be so merciful to torture agnostics not sure of his existance. It would be wonderful to send people who've speant their lives trying to achieve Nirvana to hell. Saying that hell is a place non-Christians want to acheive is stupid. 

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Still, I find using free will to solve the problem of hell as inexcusable. Even if everybody who disbelieves in God want to go to hell and be tortured, doesn't mean God should send them there. Do we let people harm themselves sense they are using their "free will"? Shouldn't well being overide free will if someone chooses something so stupid. Shouldn't God send people who choose to go hell to a mental hospital in heaven instead?

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the concept of freewill always confused me. The christan god gave humans to ability to make decisions, but not to control their feelings and desires. What is so great about freewill if our only choises are to fight our own desires?

god didnt want us be his slaves but he also wants us to follow his rules. So we have the freedom to make choises, but only the right one. and if we dont then we go to hell. this is not freedom, this is torture.

This is an issue I looked into quite a bit while I was a Christian so perhaps my thoughts will be of some use to you.

 

The concept of  Free Will I believe is best described by this, it is the ability to choose otherwise.  To put it another way, after you have made a decision there would be a realization that you could have made a different decision with a separate set of outcomes. 

 

I'll give you an example of how the Bible taught this concept.

 

Temptation has not come upon you except what is common to humanity. But God is faithful, who will not permit you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but will also make a way out together with the temptation, so that you may be able to endure it. 1 Corinthians 10:13(LEB)

 

This passage makes the point that the temptations and urges you as a Christian (or I guess formerly Christian now) were experiencing was not beyond your ability to resist and escape.  Indeed god says that he has prepared a way out for you to escape the temptation and he won't permit you to be tempted beyond what you're able.  This text as I understood teaches that within god's economy there was the possibility to act otherwise, that while god setup certain parameters such as limiting the force of the temptation and preparing a way of escape, he still left the decision to human beings to make the decision.

But how should that be measured especially if god already knows if you are going to fail?  If god knew that Adam and Eve are going to eat from the tree it was beyond their ability to resist.  How can one distinguish between a temptation/test that you failed that was within your ability to resist and a temptation/test that was too hard for you?

 

 

Not all Christians affirm Free Will though, and this was something that I held to for a period of time (though later found morally repugnant and untenable to the majority of scripture) and that would be Calvinism.  Calvinism asserts that man does not have a free will, but rather they would affirm the bondage of the will.  That is the will is bound to act in accordance with one's character and desires, that whatever is the highest inclination that moral agent will act on that inclination that wins out. 

 

I don't know if I understand this right: The first standpoint was "god doesn't give you something that you can't handle.=>you can handle every temptation but you choose not to." and the second one is:"you will get into situation which you can't handle because of your character/desire"

 

With your illustration you wanted to say that the situation(your character,..) limits your freewill,right? But does that influence for what you get punished? If you go to hell for stealing food, how does it matter if you say that you sinned even though you were able to resist or that or if you say that you stole it, because you were hungry and your desire to survive was too strong? The second view takes away the feeling of guilt and puts the blame away from you to the situation but in the end, God doesn't care and punishes you anyway. Both views make god look like an asshole.

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If we really did have a free will (which we don't) it would not be equal to all people. I'll give an

example: Does a person born and raised in the Bible belt in a fundamentalist church have an

identical free will to chose Christ as his savior as a man born and raised in Tibet as a Buddhist,

who lives by farming rice, who cannot read or write, whose parents, grandparents and ancestors were

Buddhists for generations and who has never heard of Christ?

 

Would the Buddhist have the same free will to choose Christ as the American described above if he had

heard of Christ from a foreign, white missionary who explained the plan of salvation, including the point that all the Buddhist's ancestors went to or were going to hell for eternity? Tough questions for

Xtians; easy for everybody else. bill

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Free will is a cop out Christians use to explain away the times that God looks evil.

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I'm wondering what's the best rebuttal for the Christian "hell exists because of free will doctrine. The people who go to hell want to go there" doctrine. I've seen an apologist say that "Since non-Christians don't want to be with God, they want to be separated from God for all eternity where they will live in anguish and despair." Saying that I don't want to go to hell seems ineffective. Supposedly, I choose to go to hell despite not wanting to go to hell. How much sense does that make? 

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I'm wondering what's the best rebuttal for the Christian "hell exists because of free will doctrine. The people who go to hell want to go there" doctrine. I've seen an apologist say that "Since non-Christians don't want to be with God, they want to be separated from God for all eternity where they will live in anguish and despair." Saying that I don't want to go to hell seems ineffective. Supposedly, I choose to go to hell despite not wanting to go to hell. How much sense does that make? 

 

Why would you need a rebuttal for something that is inherently dishonest?  You could point out which fallacies are used.  However somebody who cared about fallacies wouldn't say it in the first place.

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It didn't work. The campus evangelist who stalks me thought I was an idiot. He believed in the "people choose to go to hell doctrine" because CS Lewis believed it, and he was a professor of literature. Therefore, he knew the Bible and his claim is accurate by the campus evangelist's logic. I don't see how CS Lewis could wave off the parts where hell is heavily implied to be involuntary in the Bible.

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