mymistake Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 It didn't work. The campus evangelist who stalks me thought I was an idiot. He believed in the "people choose to go to hell doctrine" because CS Lewis believed it, and he was a professor of literature. Therefore, he knew the Bible and his claim is accurate by the campus evangelist's logic. I don't see how CS Lewis could wave off the parts where hell is heavily implied to be involuntary in the Bible. If he tried that with me outside the walls of a church then my rebuttal would be laughter. Lots of loud laughter. I try not to laugh at them in church since donors paid for a building devoted to such nonsense. "You mean if C.S. Lewis told you that God is a dinosaur then you would believe it because C.S. Lewis told you so?" But there is another matter. What do you mean by "It didn't work"? You can't deconvert people. I'm not saying you shouldn't. You are welcome to try if you wish. I'm saying it's impossible to succeed. Fundies can only deconvert themselves and each other. The best you can hope for is to challenge them in a way that gets them thinking. That way they will talk among themselves and ask the Christians who are suppose to have wisdom and the answers. Christian dogma is immune from outside influence due to the defenses they have. Christians know to not listen to "tools of Satan". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 It didn't get the guy off my back. I told him I have objections to God for sending people to hell, but he still persues me and tries to make me a Christian again. He told me that I want to be sent to hell when I don't and that I'm an idiot for doing so even though I'm not doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 It didn't get the guy off my back. I told him I have objections to God for sending people to hell, but he still persues me and tries to make me a Christian again. He told me that I want to be sent to hell when I don't and that I'm an idiot for doing so even though I'm not doing so. File a crime report against him for harassment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 If I ever run into a free-will-babbling morontheist over here I plan to ask her whether gawd knows everything and whether gawd created everything and everyone, as morontheists like to assert. If she answers yes to both she wrecked her own claim. If gawd knows literally everything it knows how every single one of us will live her life and where everyone will end up after death. Therefore, the moment it creates (nah even starts contemplating to create!) a human it already knows her fate, and if it wouldn't be fine with that fate it would create this human differently. It follows from these two claims already that the "best" we could ever have is an illusion of free will, based on our "fault" of not being omniscient. Case closed. Unless of course the morontheist then admits that she lied to me. In which case I see no reason to continue the discussion with a proven and admitted liear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 It didn't get the guy off my back. I told him I have objections to God for sending people to hell, but he still persues me and tries to make me a Christian again. He told me that I want to be sent to hell when I don't and that I'm an idiot for doing so even though I'm not doing so. Just tell him to go back to his Borg cube and tell the rest of the sheep what a horrible and depraved person he thinks you are for not going back into the cult. If you say that or something similar, that should scare him so bad that he wouldn't want to pursue you and try to convert you anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 CautiouslyAgnostic: Thanks for your input. Whatever christian apologists may say about free will, the fact of the matter is that the choice to accept Jesus is NOT a simple matter of deciding to do so as it is set forth in the bible. Everybody doesn't have the same hurdles to overcome in order to make that decision. Any apologists' attempts to make the act of being saved fairer by synergy or by the sole decision and power of god, or any other sweetener, is doing nothing but changing the plain meaning of scripture. Altering scripture but calling it a straightforward interpretation is 90% of what apologists do to explain away inexplicable statements or stories contained therein. They are simply rewriting the bible to make it fit their attempted justification of its absurdity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Well said William. Belief is not an equally attainable goal for all. It's is brazenly unfair and any deity that would use it as the measuring stick for some form of eternal reward cannot also be referred to as "just." Before we even get to the point of freewill and whether a person has total control in their choice we can clearly see that not all are presented with that choice, equally. And that has serious ramifications to the common, fundamental, Christian faith. For if we're not all presented with it choice equally. Than it seems obvious to me, the presentation for some is more in favor of the existence of an all-loving god than it is for others. There's a problem with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GettingDown Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 We think, but if we think - we get tortured. What the hell! (No pun intended). If we think we might not believe (hence why people like us exist!). He creates us - with brains. Then punishes us for using it. Right ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavenese Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 the concept of freewill always confused me. The christan god gave humans to ability to make decisions, but not to control their feelings and desires. What is so great about freewill if our only choises are to fight our own desires? god didnt want us be his slaves but he also wants us to follow his rules. So we have the freedom to make choises, but only the right one. and if we dont then we go to hell. this is not freedom, this is torture. Free will is to be viewed like this. Do you desire good things? Every good thing is with God. So if you want good things, you ultimately want to be with God. Do you desire the earth, do you desire to see the things of the universe up close? All that good stuff is with God. If you don't desire the good things, then you're free to be seperated from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 then you're free to be seperated from God. ...and go to hell or in the OT: get killed by a flood, killed by the Israelis,killed by a plaque,turned into a salt statue,.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardus Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 As someone once said, "We must believe in free will; we have no choice!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 We think, but if we think - we get tortured. What the hell! (No pun intended). If we think we might not believe (hence why people like us exist!). He creates us - with brains. Then punishes us for using it. Right ok. Correct. He creates us, this world, our minds, our ability to reason and then asks us to not live by any of those things and to instead cast them all aside for faith and what could essentially be a myth. DaFuq? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Free will is to be viewed like this. Do you desire good things? Every good thing is with God. So if you want good things, you ultimately want to be with God. Do you desire the earth, do you desire to see the things of the universe up close? All that good stuff is with God. If you don't desire the good things, then you're free to be seperated from God. "Yeah baby of course you're free to not sleep with me. Of course if you reject me I'll stalk you, abduct you and then rape you repeatedly before maybe letting you go, but it's your free will to say no to me now." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Mathew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. This is one of many verses that suggests that it is God who sends people to hell. The "people who go to hell send themselves there" and "The devil sends people to hell" or anybody but God sends people to hell theories are obviously bullcrap if one reads the Bible. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 He also constructed the most horrendous place to ever exist where people are tortured for their BELIEFS forever and ever. If you went over to a friend's house and saw they had built a torture chamber in the back room... What would you think of that person? Anyone that introduces the threat of violence and/or death into your decision-making process is NOT kind and certainly is no fan of free will. No matter what else they say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 "Do you desire good will? Every good thing is with God. ...." See post #38 As Reagan said to Carter in their presidential debate: "There you go again." How can you fabricate a "good" god from the bible? Who says all good things are with god? The bible? The same book that says recalcitrant children should be murdered by their fathers? The same God that murdered all people on earth except for one family and all animals on earth except two (or 7 depending on which verses you want to depend upon) of each species, even though the animals didn't do anything wrong? The God who said to hang witches, even though there are no witches and never were? The god who says to murder gays? The God who tells "his people" to kill every man woman and child of his enemy, except virgin girls whom the butcherers could keep for themselves? The god who allowed one of his prophets to order she-bears to devour multiple children because they teased him for being bald? The God who approves of banging babies of the enemies of his people against rocks? The God who created humans knowing he would send the vast majority (in the billions) to burn eternally in eternally in hell? The God who accepted the human sacrifice of a young woman by her father because of a stupid, ridiculous promise he made? Give me a break! I could go on and on setting forth atrocities or prophesies of the same, but you won't get the point anyway. bill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavenese Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Yet, god has seen fit to create men or allow men to be created via their free agency to reproduce with certain innate depravities and proclivities to the absence and denial of god and the acceptance of "sin". "No one seeks for God" says Paul of Tarsus, and yet you ask us to exert our free will to desire good things when god has supposedly set things up to make that impossible apart from divine intervention in drawing the person. If I don't desire good things, namely the god you're describing, then that is due in part to none other then himself who either set me up to reject him or otherwise gave me insufficient sovereign force to effectively secure such permanent decision from me. Apparently the good shepherd loses quite a few sheep, rather than none being able to remove them from his hands. In addition to that, let us examine the case of the Mayans, these people and their descendants lived for thousands of years before and after the supposed arrival of the Messiah Yeshua, and never had a chance to hear and receive the gospel. Believing of course comes from HEARING the gospel, not just looking up to the stars and wanting to believe in a god, that's idolatry according to the Bible. It is important that one's theology and belief about who god is and how to honor him is in alignment with the teachings and precepts outlined in the good book. This would have been impossible in this culture and as archaeologists will attest, much to the dismay of the Mormons. There is NO empirical evidence to support the contention that American Jews/American Christians existed in the America's before the arrival of the Roman Catholic Church who brought death and destruction to those who supposedly needed to be saved. Why would god appoint their time and place in history (Acts 17:26) to be wholly separate from any hope of hearing the gospel and yet be held fully accountable as they had sufficient evidence to believe in god (supposedly according to Romans 1:18-23) yet seemed to be only enough to condemn them to hell for all eternity. (which was the point of the passage of Romans 1:18 which was about the wrath of god being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men) No one chooses to go to hell, men live as they appear to be designated to live and god casts them into the eternal flames. No scripture can ever support the notion that god doesn't cast people into hell, as he does so in order to exact his justice. This being is so needy that he would require immense honor to be displayed from these infinitely smaller and limited beings such to the degree that if they did not render this he would see fit himself to ensure their everlasting torment with no hope of abatement. Heavenese, you are deluded my friend and until you are able to question the Bible and it's teachings for yourself you will never come to know the truth. Hope this helps, CA Paul told the greeks (who kind of represent all gentiles) that God allowed for men to do their own thing for a while, but now commanding that all people repent. (That is change their minds) So God doesn't hold someone accountable for not hearing the Gospel in their lifetime. Yet if they see and hear the Gospel being fully preached, meaning the message is followed by miracles and evidence that confirms the message, then God holds that person accountable. Yet for those who have died without hearing the Gospel, then God will judge them based on their knowledge. There are none who sought God, but God sought after us. Anyone who hears and see the message, they have the choice to receive it. For those who never heard, and yet were merciful (like the good samaritan), God will be merciful to them. It depends on the knowledge of the person there. Mathew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. This is one of many verses that suggests that it is God who sends people to hell. The "people who go to hell send themselves there" and "The devil sends people to hell" or anybody but God sends people to hell theories are obviously bullcrap if one reads the Bible. That verse doesn't say He sends people to hell, as in for no reason. It's clear those who transgress against God, are judged for it. It's also clear by Jesus' words in verses 32-33 of the same chapter, everyone have been sentenced to hell without Jesus. Yet going back to some of the things Paul said, Paul exclaimed he fully preached the Gospel. This means he preached the correct teaching, and that teaching was followed by an abundance of miracles and evidence. So for the people who seen and heard it, they have had a clear choice. I talked about this in another topic, the Gospel has been muddled, and people aren't hearing the Gospel fully being preached. The message has been muddled, as one of you stated how Christians killed people and forced them to convert. That ain't the Gospel. Plus we definitely haven't seen any miracles like what is talked about with Jesus and in the Book of Acts. So with that, no one can really accept Jesus or deny Him from their heart. That's where God will judge people based on their knowledge, because He knows what's in a person's heart. As for me, I'll continue searching it out. I hear what everyone is saying, but I have reason to do a lot of digging into this subject, and come up with real evidence or not. I'm confident this subject hasn't been researched as deeply as it should. One reason is because of our way of thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Mathew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. This is one of many verses that suggests that it is God who sends people to hell. The "people who go to hell send themselves there" and "The devil sends people to hell" or anybody but God sends people to hell theories are obviously bullcrap if one reads the Bible. That verse doesn't say He sends people to hell, as in for no reason. It's clear those who transgress against God, are judged for it. It's also clear by Jesus' words in verses 32-33 of the same chapter, everyone have been sentenced to hell without Jesus. Yet going back to some of the things Paul said, Paul exclaimed he fully preached the Gospel. This means he preached the correct teaching, and that teaching was followed by an abundance of miracles and evidence. So for the people who seen and heard it, they have had a clear choice. I talked about this in another topic, the Gospel has been muddled, and people aren't hearing the Gospel fully being preached. The message has been muddled, as one of you stated how Christians killed people and forced them to convert. That ain't the Gospel. Plus we definitely haven't seen any miracles like what is talked about with Jesus and in the Book of Acts. So with that, no one can really accept Jesus or deny Him from their heart. That's where God will judge people based on their knowledge, because He knows what's in a person's heart. As for me, I'll continue searching it out. I hear what everyone is saying, but I have reason to do a lot of digging into this subject, and come up with real evidence or not. I'm confident this subject hasn't been researched as deeply as it should. One reason is because of our way of thinking. Paul made up his own gospel. (According to Luke) the disciples were preaching the gospel when Jesus sent them out to prepare the way. It was impossible for the disciples to preach Paul's gospel if Jesus was still alive. If Paul's made-up gospel is the correct teaching then Jesus was teaching a false gospel. If everybody is sentenced to hell without Jesus then God was going to send people to hell for no logical reason. God can still have an insane or emotional reason. But it all boils down to God doing whatever God wants to please Himself. How could the message get muddled if God cares and has the power to speak a universe into existence? This makes no sense. God could just show us the truth but instead God leaves it up to lost manuscripts that were copied so many times that no two copies are the same and it's so badly written that thousands of Christian sects develop and the theology is all over the place. It's total confusion. The Bible says God isn't the God of confusion. Yet all of that is exactly what we would expect if Christianity was completely made up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megasamurai Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Wouldn't this mess all end if God just went up to his PA system in the sky and yelled, "I'm God, I exist" on the loudspeakers. Wouldn't God not have to worry about people not believing in him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavenese Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Paul made up his own gospel. (According to Luke) the disciples were preaching the gospel when Jesus sent them out to prepare the way. It was impossible for the disciples to preach Paul's gospel if Jesus was still alive. If Paul's made-up gospel is the correct teaching then Jesus was teaching a false gospel. If everybody is sentenced to hell without Jesus then God was going to send people to hell for no logical reason. God can still have an insane or emotional reason. But it all boils down to God doing whatever God wants to please Himself. How could the message get muddled if God cares and has the power to speak a universe into existence? This makes no sense. God could just show us the truth but instead God leaves it up to lost manuscripts that were copied so many times that no two copies are the same and it's so badly written that thousands of Christian sects develop and the theology is all over the place. It's total confusion. The Bible says God isn't the God of confusion. Yet all of that is exactly what we would expect if Christianity was completely made up. Paul didn't make up the Gospel. He learned under the original disciples. Yet Paul was one of the ones who began to take the message out to the rest of the world, whereas the originals were still focused on Israel. Paul sought to provoke Israel to jealousy, because Israel didn't receive the message as a nation. How could the message get muddled? It's because of the title of this thread. People sought opportunity in message, and human nature takes over. God chose to work with men in this, that we take part in the spreading of the message. Yet we can veer off the road in this matter. That's why we are taught to rightly divide the word, not being ashamed. It's true there has been changes and edits in the copies, but interestingly enough I see the message has been maintained throughout. Perhaps God could have perserved through addition. Of course I understand that sounds crazy. Wouldn't this mess all end if God just went up to his PA system in the sky and yelled, "I'm God, I exist" on the loudspeakers. Wouldn't God not have to worry about people not believing in him? That's a good question. Yet if Christianity is true, then He's found His way to reveal Himself. He's preferred to reveal Himself through people speaking His message. The miracles as a result of the teaching will be the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavenese Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 I'll return to talk some more tommorrow. It's pretty late on my end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Paul didn't make up the Gospel. He learned under the original disciples. Yet Paul was one of the ones who began to take the message out to the rest of the world, whereas the originals were still focused on Israel. Paul sought to provoke Israel to jealousy, because Israel didn't receive the message as a nation. How could the message get muddled? It's because of the title of this thread. People sought opportunity in message, and human nature takes over. God chose to work with men in this, that we take part in the spreading of the message. Yet we can veer off the road in this matter. That's why we are taught to rightly divide the word, not being ashamed. It's true there has been changes and edits in the copies, but interestingly enough I see the message has been maintained throughout. Perhaps God could have perserved through addition. Of course I understand that sounds crazy. Ah, Paul learned the Gospel from the super disciples that he mocked? The same disciples he warned his followers to not listen to them, and not listen to that other Gospel? Face it. Paul's gospel requires that Jesus die and the other Gospel was compete supposedly while Jesus was still alive. It's a fundamental contradiction. Paul's gospel was invented later. The original gospel was to be Jewish. You see it as the message maintained but if you had seen the original message you would reject it as a false religion and if the original disciples could see your religion they would reject you as an idolator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Paul made up his own gospel. (According to Luke) the disciples were preaching the gospel when Jesus sent them out to prepare the way. It was impossible for the disciples to preach Paul's gospel if Jesus was still alive. If Paul's made-up gospel is the correct teaching then Jesus was teaching a false gospel. If everybody is sentenced to hell without Jesus then God was going to send people to hell for no logical reason. God can still have an insane or emotional reason. But it all boils down to God doing whatever God wants to please Himself. How could the message get muddled if God cares and has the power to speak a universe into existence? This makes no sense. God could just show us the truth but instead God leaves it up to lost manuscripts that were copied so many times that no two copies are the same and it's so badly written that thousands of Christian sects develop and the theology is all over the place. It's total confusion. The Bible says God isn't the God of confusion. Yet all of that is exactly what we would expect if Christianity was completely made up. Paul didn't make up the Gospel. He learned under the original disciples. Yet Paul was one of the ones who began to take the message out to the rest of the world, whereas the originals were still focused on Israel. Paul sought to provoke Israel to jealousy, because Israel didn't receive the message as a nation. How could the message get muddled? It's because of the title of this thread. People sought opportunity in message, and human nature takes over. God chose to work with men in this, that we take part in the spreading of the message. Yet we can veer off the road in this matter. That's why we are taught to rightly divide the word, not being ashamed. It's true there has been changes and edits in the copies, but interestingly enough I see the message has been maintained throughout. Perhaps God could have perserved through addition. Of course I understand that sounds crazy. Wouldn't this mess all end if God just went up to his PA system in the sky and yelled, "I'm God, I exist" on the loudspeakers. Wouldn't God not have to worry about people not believing in him? That's a good question. Yet if Christianity is true, then He's found His way to reveal Himself. He's preferred to reveal Himself through people speaking His message. The miracles as a result of the teaching will be the evidence. Word of mouth seems to be the primary route of transmission of the Christian mind virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavenese Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Ah, Paul learned the Gospel from the super disciples that he mocked? The same disciples he warned his followers to not listen to them, and not listen to that other Gospel? Face it. Paul's gospel requires that Jesus die and the other Gospel was compete supposedly while Jesus was still alive. It's a fundamental contradiction. Paul's gospel was invented later. The original gospel was to be Jewish. You see it as the message maintained but if you had seen the original message you would reject it as a false religion and if the original disciples could see your religion they would reject you as an idolator. If you're referring to Jesus setting aside the disciples to go out and preach while He was still around (Mark 6, Matthew 10), the message wasn't much different from what Paul preached. Paul was preaching on repentance and the kingdom of Heaven. The only difference is this is after the reported resurrection of Jesus, which the original disciples preached. Paul confirmed in his letters that the message he was preaching and some of the original disciples were preaching is the same, so he's not warning others to not listen to them. He was warning not to listen to any other gospel then what was given to them. So Jesus gave the disciples the authority to preach about the kingdom of heaven being near. The message became fully realized after Jesus rose again. My question to you is do you believe Paul made up the story of Jesus rising again and claiming that His death was for the sins of the world? Word of mouth seems to be the primary route of transmission of the Christian mind virus. Real Christianity, that if all the things reported concerning Jesus is true, should be based on more than word of mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted June 26, 2013 Share Posted June 26, 2013 Paul made up his own gospel. (According to Luke) the disciples were preaching the gospel when Jesus sent them out to prepare the way. It was impossible for the disciples to preach Paul's gospel if Jesus was still alive. If Paul's made-up gospel is the correct teaching then Jesus was teaching a false gospel. If everybody is sentenced to hell without Jesus then God was going to send people to hell for no logical reason. God can still have an insane or emotional reason. But it all boils down to God doing whatever God wants to please Himself. How could the message get muddled if God cares and has the power to speak a universe into existence? This makes no sense. God could just show us the truth but instead God leaves it up to lost manuscripts that were copied so many times that no two copies are the same and it's so badly written that thousands of Christian sects develop and the theology is all over the place. It's total confusion. The Bible says God isn't the God of confusion. Yet all of that is exactly what we would expect if Christianity was completely made up. Paul didn't make up the Gospel. He learned under the original disciples. Yet Paul was one of the ones who began to take the message out to the rest of the world, whereas the originals were still focused on Israel. Paul sought to provoke Israel to jealousy, because Israel didn't receive the message as a nation. How could the message get muddled? It's because of the title of this thread. People sought opportunity in message, and human nature takes over. God chose to work with men in this, that we take part in the spreading of the message. Yet we can veer off the road in this matter. That's why we are taught to rightly divide the word, not being ashamed. It's true there has been changes and edits in the copies, but interestingly enough I see the message has been maintained throughout. Perhaps God could have perserved through addition. Of course I understand that sounds crazy. Wouldn't this mess all end if God just went up to his PA system in the sky and yelled, "I'm God, I exist" on the loudspeakers. Wouldn't God not have to worry about people not believing in him? That's a good question. Yet if Christianity is true, then He's found His way to reveal Himself. He's preferred to reveal Himself through people speaking His message. The miracles as a result of the teaching will be the evidence. What miracles? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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