Flavius Josephus

[Mythra]

Very curious, this silence in Josephus' Antiquities concerning Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah who performed such wonderful works. Christians' common explanation is that Josephus wasn't a christian. He had no reason to record the life of someone like Jesus who claimed to be the Messiah. This argument falls apart, when you begin to study what Josephus actually did write. Here is Josephus, writing in great detail about other men who claimed to be the Messiah.

 

Athronges the Shepherd (4 BCE)

 

Athronges, a person neither eminent by the dignity of his progenitors, nor for any great wealth he possessed. For he had been a mere shepherd, not known by anybody. But because he was a tall man, and excelled others in the strength of his hands, he was so bold as to set up for king. This man thought it so sweet a thing to do more than ordinary injuries to others, that, although he risked his life, he did not much care if he lost it in so great a design.

He had four brothers, who were tall men themselves, and were believed to be superior to others in the strength of their hands, and thereby were encouraged to aim at great things, and thought that strength of theirs would support them in retaining the kingdom. Each of these ruled over a band of men of their own (for those that got together to them were very numerous). They were every one of them also commanders; but when they came to fight, they were subordinate to him, and fought for him. After he had put a diadem about his head, he assembled a council to debate about what things should be done, and all things were done according to his pleasure. So, this man retained his power a great while; he was also called king, and had nothing to hinder him from doing what he pleased.

Together with his brothers, he slew a great many of both of Roman and of the king's forces, and managed matters with the like hatred to each of them. They fell upon the king's soldiers because of the licentious conduct they had been allowed under Herod's government; and they fell upon the Romans, because of the injuries they had so lately received from them. But in process of time they grew more cruel to all sorts of men, nor could anyone escape from one or other of these seditions, since they slew some out of the hopes of gain, and others from a mere custom of slaying men.

Once, they attacked a Roman company at Emmaus, soldiers who were bringing corn and weapons to the army, and fell upon Arius, the centurion, who commanded the company, and shot forty of the best of his foot soldiers. The other Romans panicked after this slaughter, left their dead behind them, and were saved by Gratus, who came to their assistance with the king's troops that he commanded. Now these four brethren continued the war a long while by such sort of expeditions, and they much grieved the Romans; but they did their own nation also a great deal of mischief.

Afterwards they were subdued; one of them in a fight with Gratus, another with Ptolemy; Herod Archelaus took the eldest of them prisoner; while the last of them was so dejected at the other's misfortune, and saw so plainly that he had no way now left to save himself, his army being worn away with sickness and continual labors, that he also delivered himself up to Archelaus, upon his promise and oath to God to preserve his life. But these things came to pass a good while afterward.

[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 17.278-284]

 

Judas the Galilean (6CE)

 

There was one Judas, a Galilean, of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Zadok, a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt. Both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honor and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same. So men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height.

[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.4-6]

Judas the Galilean was the author of the fourth branch of Jewish philosophy. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord.

[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.23]

 

The Samaritan Prophet (36 CE)

 

For a man who made light of mendacity and in all his designs catered to the mob, rallied them, bidding them go in a body with him to Mount Gerizim, which in their belief is the most sacred of mountains. He assured them that on their arrival he would show them the sacred vessels which were buried there, where Moses had deposited them. His hearers, viewing this tale as plausible, appeared in arms. They posted themselves in a certain village named Tirathana, and, as they planned to climb the mountain in a great multitude, they welcomed to their ranks the new arrivals who kept coming. But before they could ascend, Pilate blocked their projected route up the mountain with a detachment of cavalry and heavily armed infantry, who in an encounter with the first comers in the village slew some in a pitched battle and put the others to flight. Many prisoners were taken, of whom Pilate put to death the principal leaders and those who were most influential among the fugitives.

[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.85-87]

 

Theudas (45 CE)

 

It came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain charlatan, whose name was Theudas, persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it. Many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them. After falling upon them unexpectedly, they slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem.

[(Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.97-98]

 

The Egyptian Prophet (52-58 CE)

 

about this time, someone came out of Egypt to Jerusalem, claiming to be a prophet. He advised the crowd to go along with him to the Mount of Olives, as it was called, which lay over against the city, and at the distance of a kilometer. He added that he would show them from hence how the walls of Jerusalem would fall down at his command, and he promised them that he would procure them an entrance into the city through those collapsed walls. Now when Felix was informed of these things, he ordered his soldiers to take their weapons, and came against them with a great number of horsemen and footmen from Jerusalem, and attacked the Egyptian and the people that were with him. He slew four hundred of them, and took two hundred alive. The Egyptian himself escaped out of the fight, but did not appear any more. And again the robbers stirred up the people to make war with the Romans, and said they ought not to obey them at all; and when any persons would not comply with them, they set fire to their villages, and plundered them.

[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.169-171

 

An unnamed prophet (59 CE)

 

Festus sent forces, both horsemen and footmen, to fall upon those that had been seduced by a certain impostor, who promised them deliverance and freedom from the miseries they were under, if they would but follow him as far as the wilderness. Accordingly, those forces that were sent destroyed both him that had deluded them, and those that were his followers also.

[Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.188]

 

 

Menahem (66 CE)

 

In the mean time, one Menahem, the son of that Judas, who was called the Galilean [...] took some of the men of note with him, and retired to Masada, where he broke open king Herod's armory, and gave arms not only to his own people, but to other robbers also. These he made use of for a guard, and returned in the state of a king to Jerusalem; he became the leader of the sedition. (Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 2.433-434)

 

 

Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)

 

Simon had been in the upper city during the siege of Jerusalem, but when the Roman army had got within the walls and were laying the city waste, he then took the most faithful of his friends with him, and among them several stone-cutters, with those iron tools which belonged to their occupation. Taking with them as great a quantity of provisions as would suffice them for a long time, he let himself and all them down into a certain subterranean cavern that was not visible above ground. Now, so far as had been digged of old, they went onward along it without disturbance; but where they met with solid earth, they dug a mine under ground, and hoping that they should be able to proceed so far as to rise from underground in a safe place, and by that means escape. But when they came to make the experiment, they were disappointed of their hope; for the miners could make but small progress, and that with difficulty also because their provisions, though they distributed them by measure, began to fail them.

Simon, thinking he might be able to astonish and elude the Romans, put on a white frock, and buttoned upon him a purple cloak, and appeared out of the ground in the place where the temple had formerly been. At the first, indeed, those that saw him were greatly astonished, and stood still where they were; but afterward they came nearer to him, and asked him who he was. Now Simon would not tell them, but bid them call for their captain; and when they ran to call him, Terentius Rufus (who was left to command the army there) came to Simon, and learned of him the whole truth, and kept him in bonds, and let Titus know that he was taken. Thus did God bring this man to be punished for what bitter and savage tyranny he had exercised against his countrymen.

[Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 7.26-32]

 

Jonathan the Weaver (73 CE)

 

The madness of the Sicarii, like a disease, reached as far as the cities of Cyrenaica, because one Jonathan, a vile person, and by trade a weaver, came thither and prevailed with no small number of the poorer sort to give ear to him. He led them into the desert, upon promising them that he would show them signs and apparitions. [...] Those of the greatest dignity among the Jews of Cyrene informed Catullus, the governor of the Libyan Pentapolis, of Jonathan's march into the desert, and of the preparations he had made for it. So Catullus sent out after him both horsemen and footmen, and easily overcame them, because they were unarmed. Many were slain in the fight, but some were taken alive, and brought to Catullus. As for Jonathan, the head of this plot, he fled away at that time; but upon a great and very diligent search, which was made all the country over for him, he was at last taken.

[Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 7.437-441]

 

 

All of this detail about all of these obscure characters. Yet not a word about Jesus, Peter, Thomas, Phillip, Paul. Nothing of the gospel story. Nothing of the slaughter of the innocents in Bethlehem. Nothing of pentecost or the marvelous happenings in the book of Acts.

Nothing.

[Kryten]

Maybe he left the mountain of Jesus tales out because there was a paper shortage.

[Mythra]

Either that, or he would be astonished to find today, 2,000 years later - a widespread religion which swallows hook line and sinker events which never actually took place.

[Kryten]

Mythra, please forgive me but you are so much more knowledgeable about Josephus than I. Even if he did write about "Jesus" he still wasn't alive during the time the bible says Jesus lives, was he?

Not to speak for Mythra, but my opinion is that IF Josephus did say something about Jesus, at least that would indicate (depending on what he said) that some people at the time believed there was a Jesus. We don't even have that.

I think there may have been "Christians" before Josephus was born, but they were more gnostic and either didn't think there ever was a physical Jesus, or that he lived way off in their past. The concept that Jesus was a real person who lived in the early first century was developed much later. Conveniently, far too late for there to be any physical evidence or eyewitnesses.

 

It is true Josephus was not a contemporary of Jesus since he was born a couple years after Jesus is thought to have been nailed.

[Mythra]

Mythra, please forgive me but you are so much more knowledgeable about Josephus than I. Even if he did write about "Jesus" he still wasn't alive during the time the bible says Jesus lives, was he?

 

Josephus was born in 37 CE. Died around 100 CE. His writings are extensive, though, covering the history of the Jews for 2,000 years. Just as an example, look what he knew about "Athronges the Shepherd", who dates to 4 BCE. And, Josephus would have been alive during the exact time when christianity was "spreading like wildfire" and could not have failed to take note of it.

 

The mention of Jesus by Josephus is known as the Testimonium Flavianum. It was "discovered" by Eusebius in the fourth century. One hundred years earlier, Origen ( a christian apologist) quotes from Josephus, is very familiar with Josephus' writings, and did not know anything about this passage. Eusebius said this: "That it will be necessary sometimes to use falsehood as a remedy for the benefit of those who require such a mode of treatment"

 

It sure appears like the early church fathers were nervous about the lack of references to Jesus, and found ways to create them, on occasion.

 

Heimdall did a great expose' on the Testimonium. It's in rants.

 

Here is a good resource for anyone interested.

[Heimdall]

Heimdall did a great expose' on the Testimonium. It's in rants.

I put it and all of my other posts of that nature on my blog, to make them more accessible to those wanting ammo to use in debates. - Heimdall

[Amanda]

Hello Mythra!

 

As you know, I've changed my mind concerning Jesus based on many informative positions you've presented, that, I think, can't be refuted. I agree there seems to be many myths superimposed upon Jesus, as also done to St. Nicholas, yet, I still think Jesus was a real person. There are positions that assert Josephus did acknowledge Jesus, found here . The quote I'm referring to is this one:

2. Jewish sources - Josephus, the Talmud. Josephus, a Jewish aristocrat turned politician, was recruited by the Romans during the first Jewish revolt to act as a mediator and write a historical record of events at the time. He records that Jesus was a wise man that did many wonderful works, and that many people - both Jews and Gentiles - followed after him. The Talmud, written by Jewish sources at the time, is (not surprisingly) unfriendly toward the founder of Christianity. The important point, however, is that Jewish sources do not deny that Jesus was a real historical figure -- they only promote a different interpretation of of his conception.

 

Also, not only did Jesus seem to be verified, during his life in India, by the Tibbetan Buddhist sacred documents, I've also recently found where the Quran and Arabs present validation of his existence in their sacred writings too. This can be found here .

 

Although I do NOT validate the popular interpretations of these teachings of Jesus or of the Bible, nor in any way see the KJV or any other present Bible to be taken literally with any benefit, and do not wish to give credence to this view point... I still see evidence for the existence of Jesus. Please give me your opinion of the info on these sites.

[Mythra]

That "Jesus was a wise man" quote IS what is known as the Testimonium Flavianum. This is it:

 

Antiquities 18.3.3. "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."

 

Now, an exerpt from Heimdall's article:

 

None of the early Christians cite the “Testimonium” in their works, not Justin Martyr, Theophilus Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexander, Julius Africanus, Pseudo-Justin, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Methodius, nor Lactantius. Although each of these writers show familiarity with the works of Josephus, as pointed out by Michael Hardwick in “Josephus as an Historical Source in Patristic Literature through Eusebius”. Origen used passages from the Antiquities to establish the historicity of John the Baptist and would have been eager to quote the Antiquities to prove the historical existence of Jesus. Interestingly, It was for the purpose of proving that Jesus performed true miracles, not to establish his historicity, that Eusebius quoted the “Testimonium” in his “Evangelical Demonstration”. So we can show that the early Church Fathers would have gladly quoted an existing “Testimonium”. This is an absence of proof, but strong evidence of the “Testimonium” being a much later Christian interpolation.

 

The fact that this Josephus quote was discovered in the fourth century speaks volumes for its authenticity or lack thereof. I need to take a look at your link, Amanda. But, if it's like so many things that seem to prove a Jesus, there are an abundance of writings that only prove that the Jesus legend was in existence 100, 200, or 1,000 years after he supposedly lived.

A fact which no one disputes.

 

What does a reference in the Quran prove? It was written, when, 650 CE, or something like that? Does a book written by Billy Graham in 1972 prove a Jesus? C'mon, Amanda.

 

As far as the Talmud referencing Jesus, you should really check this out for yourself. It doesn't. Unless you consider Yeshu ben Pandira, who lived one hundred years before the supposed time of Jesus. Or Yeshu ben Stada, who lived in the second century CE. If someone tells you that Jesus of Nazareth is referenced in the Talmud, they are either ignorant, or being deceptive.

 

 

 

 

The_Jesus_Narrative_In_The_Talmud.htm

[SkepticOfBible]

 

 

Also, not only did Jesus seem to be verified, during his life in India, by the Tibbetan Buddhist sacred documents, I've also recently found where the Quran and Arabs present validation of his existence in their sacred writings too. This can be found here .

 

 

Jesus did not goto India. This is just a common myth that New Age guys are perpetuating. This myth has rebutted by Christians and Hindus themselves.

 

What's your evidence that Jesus went to India?

[spamandham]

Assuming for a moment that Josephus did in fact write about Jesus (with interpolations added as even Christian scholars agree), what does that prove?

 

When reading Josephus, keep in mind he was somewhat of a tabloid journalist more than what we would call a historian. He wrote about numerous myths as if they were fact.

 

So what would it prove if Josephus wrote a small blurb about Jesus? It would prove that Josephus had heard about Jesus - i.e., it proves the existence of Christianity in the 1st century. This is hardly a contested point.

[Mythra]

I know that almost all of you are a little familiar with the passage in Josephus' Antiquities commonly known as the Testimonium Flavianum. But have you ever read it in context? I have it here in italics, along with the preceding and following chapters from Josephus Antiquities XVIII. Notice a couple of things. Notice in chapter 4 the exhaustive detail that Josephus goes into when talking about a lady named Paulina from Rome. This is highly representative of the way that Josephus wrote. Great detail. Then, notice the passage about Jesus. What do you think are the chances that he would have such great detail in all of his writings, and then with a passing glance say - "oh yeah, there was this guy named jesus, he did lots of cool stuff. He was the messiah."

 

Not freakin likely.

 

Also, notice how, if you go right from the end of chapter two into the beginning of chapter four, it flows unbroken. Josephus was talking about tragedies that had befallen the Jews. Doesn't take a scholar to see that the Jesus narrative is totally out of place.

 

This is one of Christians' "great proofs" for a historical Jesus.

 

 

1. BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.

 

2. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews (8) were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

 

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

 

4. About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty. She was married to Saturninus, one that was every way answerable to her in an excellent character. Decius Mundus fell in love with this woman, who was a man very high in the equestrian order; and as she was of too great dignity to be caught by presents, and had already rejected them, though they had been sent in great abundance, he was still more inflamed with love to her, insomuch that he promised to give her two hundred thousand Attic drachmae for one night's lodging; and when this would not prevail upon her, and he was not able to bear this misfortune in his amours, he thought it the best way to famish himself to death for want of food, on account of Paulina's sad refusal; and he determined with himself to die after such a manner, and he went on with his purpose accordingly. Now Mundus had a freed-woman, who had been made free by his father, whose name was Ide, one skillful in all sorts of mischief. This woman was very much grieved at the young man's resolution to kill himself, (for he did not conceal his intentions to destroy himself from others,) and came to him, and encouraged him by her discourse, and made him to hope, by some promises she gave him, that he might obtain a night's lodging with Paulina; and when he joyfully hearkened to her entreaty, she said she wanted no more than fifty thousand drachmae for the entrapping of the woman. So when she had encouraged the young man, and gotten as much money as she required, she did not take the same methods as had been taken before, because she perceived that the woman was by no means to be tempted by money; but as she knew that she was very much given to the worship of the goddess Isis, she devised the following stratagem: She went to some of Isis's priests, and upon the strongest assurances [of concealment], she persuaded them by words, but chiefly by the offer of money, of twenty-five thousand drachmae in hand, and as much more when the thing had taken effect; and told them the passion of the young man, and persuaded them to use all means possible to beguile the woman. So they were drawn in to promise so to do, by that large sum of gold they were to have. Accordingly, the oldest of them went immediately to Paulina; and upon his admittance, he desired to speak with her by herself. When that was granted him, he told her that he was sent by the god Anubis, who was fallen in love with her, and enjoined her to come to him. Upon this she took the message very kindly, and valued herself greatly upon this condescension of Anubis, and told her husband that she had a message sent her, and was to sup and lie with Anubis; so he agreed to her acceptance of the offer, as fully satisfied with the chastity of his wife. Accordingly, she went to the temple, and after she had supped there, and it was the hour to go to sleep, the priest shut the doors of the temple, when, in the holy part of it, the lights were also put out. Then did Mundus leap out, (for he was hidden therein,) and did not fail of enjoying her, who was at his service all the night long, as supposing he was the god; and when he was gone away, which was before those priests who knew nothing of this stratagem were stirring, Paulina came early to her husband, and told him how the god Anubis had appeared to her. Among her friends, also, she declared how great a value she put upon this favor, who partly disbelieved the thing, when they reflected on its nature, and partly were amazed at it, as having no pretense for not believing it, when they considered the modesty and the dignity of the person. But now, on the third day after what had been done, Mundus met Paulina, and said, "Nay, Paulina, thou hast saved me two hundred thousand drachmae, which sum thou sightest have added to thy own family; yet hast thou not failed to be at my service in the manner I invited thee. As for the reproaches thou hast laid upon Mundus, I value not the business of names; but I rejoice in the pleasure I reaped by what I did, while I took to myself the name of Anubis." When he had said this, he went his way. But now she began to come to the sense of the grossness of what she had done, and rent her garments, and told her husband of the horrid nature of this wicked contrivance, and prayed him not to neglect to assist her in this case. So he discovered the fact to the emperor; whereupon Tiberius inquired into the matter thoroughly by examining the priests about it, and ordered them to be crucified, as well as Ide, who was the occasion of their perdition, and who had contrived the whole matter, which was so injurious to the woman. He also demolished the temple of Isis, and gave order that her statue should be thrown into the river Tiber; while he only banished Mundus, but did no more to him, because he supposed that what crime he had committed was done out of the passion of love. And these were the circumstances which concerned the temple of Isis, and the injuries occasioned by her priests. I now return to the relation of what happened about this time to the Jews at Rome, as I formerly told you I would.

[Taphophilia]

 

The mention of Jesus by Josephus is known as the Testimonium Flavianum. It was "discovered" by Eusebius in the fourth century. One hundred years earlier, Origen ( a christian apologist) quotes from Josephus, is very familiar with Josephus' writings, and did not know anything about this passage. Eusebius said this: "That it will be necessary sometimes to use falsehood as a remedy for the benefit of those who require such a mode of treatment"

 

It sure appears like the early church fathers were nervous about the lack of references to Jesus, and found ways to create them, on occasion.

 

Heimdall did a great expose' on the Testimonium. It's in rants.

 

Here is a good resource for anyone interested.

 

It is very interesting that Eusebius "discovered" the Testimonium Flavianum. Eusebius was the Bishop of Cesarea, Constintine's buddy, single handedly wrote the doctrine of the church, threw out unorthadox beliefs like reincarnation, and wrote the biggest fabrication other than the Bible. "Ecclesiastical History". A fabricated history of Christianity that Christian's to this day believe.

 

Taph

[Guest sub_zer0]

Very curious, this silence in Josephus' Antiquities concerning Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah who performed such wonderful works. Christians' common explanation is that Josephus wasn't a christian. He had no reason to record the life of someone like Jesus who claimed to be the Messiah. This argument falls apart, when you begin to study what Josephus actually did write. Here is Josephus, writing in great detail about other men who claimed to be the Messiah.

 

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonders. He drew many after him. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).

[Mythra]

It is very interesting that Eusebius "discovered" the Testimonium Flavianum. Eusebius was the Bishop of Cesarea, Constintine's buddy, single handedly wrote the doctrine of the church, threw out unorthadox beliefs like reincarnation, and wrote the biggest fabrication other than the Bible. "Ecclesiastical History". A fabricated history of Christianity that Christian's to this day believe.

 

You got it, Taph. That's why when a fundy comes on here telling pious lies for Jesus, we say that he must have graduated from the Eusebian School for Religious Advancement.

 

I don't think any of em have a clue what we're saying when we tell em that.

 

 

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonders. He drew many after him. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).

 

Did you have some kind of a point you were trying to make there, subby? Or did you fail to read anything else in this thread?

 

I'd call you a moron, but this is the Colliseum, so I can't do that.

[Guest sub_zer0]

You got it, Taph. That's why when a fundy comes on here telling pious lies for Jesus, we say that he must have graduated from the Eusebian School for Religious Advancement.

 

I don't think any of em have a clue what we're saying when we tell em that.

 

So again, how isn't this what Josephus wrote?

 

Did you have some kind of a point you were trying to make there, subby? Or did you fail to read anything else in this thread?

 

I'd call you a moron, but this is the Colliseum, so I can't do that.

 

Let's try this again... You said...

 

Very curious, this silence in Josephus' Antiquities concerning Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah who performed such wonderful works. Christians' common explanation is that Josephus wasn't a christian. He had no reason to record the life of someone like Jesus who claimed to be the Messiah. This argument falls apart, when you begin to study what Josephus actually did write. Here is Josephus, writing in great detail about other men who claimed to be the Messiah.

 

Then I gave you where Josephus speaks of Jesus, because you say he didn't...

 

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonders. He drew many after him. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).

[Mythra]

Then I gave you where Josephus speaks of Jesus, because you say he didn't...

 

OK subzero. Very slowly now.

 

This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum.

 

Half of this thread is devoted to showing how Josephus did not write that. It was inserted into Antiquities in the fourth century. Most likely by Eusebius.

 

If you're not afraid, read and learn. You are using lies to support your savior.

 

This passage is fraudulent.

[Guest sub_zer0]

OK subzero. Very slowly now.

 

This passage is known as the Testimonium Flavianum.

 

Half of this thread is devoted to showing how Josephus did not write that. It was inserted into Antiquities in the fourth century. Most likely by Eusebius.

 

If you're not afraid, read and learn. You are using lies to support your savior.

 

This passage is fraudulent.

 

Where is the proof that Josephus didn't write that?

[Eponymic]

Where is the proof that Josephus didn't write that?

 

Here's one source for ya:

 

http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm

[Guest sub_zer0]

Where is the proof that Josephus didn't write that?

 

Here's one source for ya:

 

http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm

 

I meant you tell me, you see I can paste links also...

 

http://www.tektonics.org/doherty//reuben.html

 

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/josephus.html

[Eponymic]

 

I meant you tell me, you see I can paste links also...

 

 

Oy. You obviously don't care to read because Mythra already posted the Eusebian deal on this thread.

[Mythra]

1. It doesn't fit with the previous passage and the following one.

 

2. It's inconsistent with Josephus' other writings.

 

3. Ancient table of contents of Antiquities fail to show this passage.

 

4. Many christian writers from the second and third centuries quote Josephus and are very familiar with his writings. NONE of them mention this passage. They are: Origen, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Iraenaeus, Clement, Julius Africanus, Tertullian, Hypolytus, Lactantius.

 

5. Eusebius "finds" it in the fourth century. It takes 100 years before anyone mentions it again.

 

These are just a few reasons why any thinking person would come to doubt it's authenticity. It's only a convincing passage through the eyes of the faithful, who grasp at anything, even something as dubious as this, to attempt to prove their religion.

[Eponymic]

 

These are just a few reasons why any thinking person would come to doubt it's authenticity. It's only a convincing passage through the eyes of the faithful, who grasp at anything, even something as dubious as this, to attempt to prove their religion.

 

Such as the person from you tektonics page you posted.

 

Take this simple quote from that page "TF has been widely recognized as mostly genuine, with only a few interpolations; see here."

 

Oh golly, it mostly true, so therefore it's gotta be genuine. A few changes doesn't make it false right?

 

Come on man.

[Mythra]

Oh golly, it mostly true, so therefore it's gotta be genuine. A few changes doesn't make it false right? Come on man.

 

Funny how obvious this stuff is when you're not trying to buy into it. The Talmud one is the one that really gets me. They quote one or two lines from the Talmud - such as the "hanged on a tree on the eve of Passover" and they stop there. Christians go ooooh. See? Talmud reference!

 

But, when you look at the whole thing in Talmud, this is Yeshu ben Pandira. Son of a roman soldier. 100 years before their Jesus was supposed to have lived. Five disciples with names like Toda and Bunai.

 

Eusebian School.

[Taphophilia]

Sub,

 

I will go real slow for you and try not to use big words.

 

The passage (words) that talk about Jesus were not in there before a person who is known to have made stuff up about the church found them. They are not the style of Josephus writing. They don't match the way he wrote the other words.

 

Constintine (I know that a really big word, can't help it) wanted to take over the world so he used Christianity as a way to do it, and had his bff write lies to make peeps believe it's true. It worked cuz peeps like you still believe it.

 

Taph

[Guest sub_zer0]

1. It doesn't fit with the previous passage and the following one.

 

2. It's inconsistent with Josephus' other writings.

 

3. Ancient table of contents of Antiquities fail to show this passage.

 

4. Many christian writers from the second and third centuries quote Josephus and are very familiar with his writings. NONE of them mention this passage. They are: Origen, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Iraenaeus, Clement, Julius Africanus, Tertullian, Hypolytus, Lactantius.

 

5. Eusebius "finds" it in the fourth century. It takes 100 years before anyone mentions it again.

 

These are just a few reasons why any thinking person would come to doubt it's authenticity. It's only a convincing passage through the eyes of the faithful, who grasp at anything, even something as dubious as this, to attempt to prove their religion.

 

1. Yes it does.

2. No it isn't.

3. You mean the ancient TOC actually broke it down to every passage?

4. Perhaps nobody quoted it because it was lost, thus Eusebius finds it...

 

I am not using this to prove my religion so get that though out of your head.