Relationship Woes

[AbsolutPauer]

Hello all. I'm a long-time lurker and first-time poster. I've actually been following the site for about a year or so, off and on, and I thought it might be time to contribute something. Anyway, here goes.

 

I became a closet apostate in the Fall of 2004, after years of unresolved questions, guilt, and the end of an unfortunate relationship. At that time, I was a senior in college at a school only twenty minutes from home. That small distance afforded me a bit of space to form my own beliefs without the threat of disapproving family members, but to maintain appearances, I continued to go to church with family on the weekends.

 

While there, I became reacquainted with a friend from years past who I had met at good ol' Church o' God Youth Camp. Unbeknownst to me, I had caught the eye of this young lady so many years ago, and when we met again, I was still completely oblivious to the fact that she was interested. It wasn't until those wonderful parents of mine encouraged me that I actually started to take notice. This was during a time where I "casting my nets," so to speak, on all sides of the metaphorical "boat" that is my social life.

 

I thought, "What the hell, I'll give this a shot. Maybe she'll be cool with the fact that I'm no longer a 'True Believer.'"

 

 

I came clean to her about two weeks into the relationship, relating how I no longer considered myself a Christian and what some of my reasons were for my lack of belief. She was really quite taken aback, as she remembered my more zealous days of singin' and shoutin' 'Hallelujah.' I expected, based on her response, that she would cease to be interested in me and no longer pursue a relationship. Imagine my surprise when the very next day, it seemed as though nothing had happened. She was just as interested as ever. So we continued...

 

 

Fast forward eleven months to today, and the landscape of our relationship has changed quite a bit. We've had a fairly stable relationship to this point, with only minor ups and downs, and the Christianity issue has been swept safely under the rug. This is largely due to the fact that I decided to "give Christianity another try" about two months into the relationship. This seemed to lay to rest any concerns she may have had, as we continued attending church together and even went to Bible studies on weekends. It has become increasingly apparent to both of us, however, that my heart just isn't in it.

 

So about two months ago, we had another discussion about my belief system, and I simply could not in good conscience tell her that I actually believed any of the things that Christianity claims. It seems that this is no longer a non-issue with her. She is a very dedicated Christian, and I can't for the life of me figure out why she decided to date me in the first place.

 

Anyway, after this discussion, I began to dig more deeply to see if there was any way I could possibly embrace Christianity in any part. I began talking with the pastor of our church on a weekly basis. I began reading apologetics again to try to resolve the glaring contradictions in my head; you know you've got major philosophical issues when you start attacking classical foundationalism ala Plantinga. After two months of research and soul-searching, I still can't whole-heartedly embrace much of Christianity.

 

So the question is, what do I do now? I think we've had a good relationship, all things considered, and I don't really want to terminate the relationship unless it's absolutely necessary. Should I try to talk to her and help her to see my point of view on some essential items of Christian doctrine, or should I just assume it's futile and not even bother. I sometimes feel like she'd be happier with someone who shares her beliefs, but I can't really imagine who I'd be happier with.

[♦ nivek ♦]

"Thanks for calling 1.800.Dr.Nivekster!:

 

First word of advise is a question, stated as this:

 

"When you two wake up together, are you dead yet?"

 

If not, don't sweat the small shit, being_not_dead is a good start to the day and a relationship.

 

Second is a statement:

 

"Big fuckin' deal" All parties will get over it as long as you aren't trying to make each other dead.

 

Third:

 

"As long as you kids aren't gonna fuck each other over, or argue over religion or its various aspects, quit worrying about things that only change with time."

 

Fourth:

 

"If your partner does your mutual laundry, cooks and cleans, and doesn't hate your guts, why fuck it up?"

 

Let things pan out. Don't allow the outsiders and family influence your decisions. Make your own choices, and have a big ole frosty freshly tapped and drawn up mug of cold Shut The Fuck Up to hand to those who GOTTA run their cookie holsters at you...

 

Enjoy life bubba, it is too short, goes to fast to let assholes FUBAR it for you two..

 

Dr. nivekburlger (Fresh Hondoran Nutdoc Diplomate Certificate on wall) L

[aynalhub]

Hey man, as long as you can search her out and she is not harboring a certainty from "the LORD" that you will someday turn around, then let the good times roll.

 

Under Any Gods?, you have "a way that can be described is not the eternal way"

 

I bet changing those words a little so they have to do with love will do a lot for you.

[All Gods Fail]

My 2¢ - trying to feign interest in a silly religion like xtianity is no way to go through life. If you don't believe, you don't believe. You'll be setting yourselves up for a lot of strife if she can't deal w/it.

[nightflight]

If she continiues to be cool with you, why stress? You sound like you have a good thing; don't push it away if you don't need too. Be happy.

[godlessgrrl]

Just be totally honest about the religion issue. Be honest with her, and honest with yourself.

 

That way you won't have to fake anything. And if she decides there's some big problem with being with you, she'll have pleny of opportunity to bail.

 

Otherwise if it's going well, and both of you are happy, there's no reason to end it. Religion can be an issue, but only if you guys make it an issue.

[Joyous1]

Dr. nivekburlger (Fresh Hondoran Nutdoc Diplomate Certificate on wall) L

 

Nivek, I think you really should have your own talk show, that was great!

 

 

I'm sorry your having a hard time Abs, and I have no advice for you as I gave up on relationships years ago. All I have for you is a welcome, and I hope you find some help here.

[AbsolutPauer]

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far. I think what I'm hearing from most of you is that I shouldn't make the religion issue bigger than it is, but that I should be honest about it. I've been doing pretty well with that last part lately, but I do tend to make some issues bigger than they should be. However, in this particular instance, my girlfriend has been making it a big issue. I also found out last night that she's been talking to her mother about it (no big surprise), and that her mother is now concerned that she's dating someone who doesn't believe the same as she does. I'd offer her a frosty mug of Shut The Fuck Up, as Nivek suggested, but then I don't really want to alienate her family, as her family and my family are now going to the same church.

 

Soooooo, I dunno what to do. I'll probably just play it by ear for now. It seems like some things are transpiring outside of my direct control anyway, so maybe those things will force the issue. Hopefully not before the holidays are over, though. I don't think I could take the guilt of "ruining Christmas" for my family and hers.

[Hero of Hyrule]

I can't relate to anything, but there's nothing wrong with signing jesus songs and having a nice chritmass and still 'do' some religious things, as long as you're honest with yourself and others. Never pretend you're praying or something like that. Maybe going to church sometimes, bt staying home sometimes too.

 

Something like that. That's all advice I can give you.

[bob]

I think what I'm hearing from most of you is that I shouldn't make the religion issue bigger than it is, but that I should be honest about it.

That's what I think.

I removed the shackles of faith about 5 years ago, after 25 years of believing. I have been seeing a wonderful lady for the past year, who happens to be a dedicated Christian. She knew from the start that I was an atheist.

We have a wonderful relationship. I go to church with her almost every Sunday, and she is fully aware that the only reason I go is to be with her. I have no doubt that she holds out hope that I will find my way back to god some day before I die, and I am not about to tell her the truth, which is that I would rather go to hell than spend eternity with bible-god. So, we pretty much ignore the subject.

It's almost funny (scary?); an ultra-conservative, Fox and Friends, Bush-loving Christian, in love with a liberal, Bush-hating atheist. Some how we make it work, and I can't imagine my life without her.

 

Glad you finally made your first post AP.

[Godless Dave]

She kept up the relationship with you because she hoped you would change and come back to the Lord™. Now that it's clear you aren't going to, she is working up the courage to dump you. The best thing you can do is be honest about what you believe and how you feel about her. The worst thing you can do is pretend to be more Christian than you are; that would be unfair to her.

[Eccles1:2]

Hi there. Sorry for all the hassle you're having.

 

Everyone's right; you can't pretend without driving yourself mental. So is there any mileage in trying to swing her over? After all, you jumped out of the boat - maybe she will too. Does she understand your intellectual position regarding the Christian mythology? If she loves you she'll at least listen and try to understand - won't she?

 

Having said that, in the end "the family" will probably win. I think you should try to persuade her out of it, but prepare yourself for a break-up.

[greasemonkey]

I might as well throw my two cents in as well...

 

Nobody here can really give very accurate advice (including me) because it is never completely the same for any two people. My brother's wife is a christian, he's an atheist, and there is no friction at all. I don't think she cares much for the fact that he won't go to church with her, but it just isn't that big of a deal to her. With his ex-wife, it was a HUGE deal and part of the reason for the divorce.

 

Like Anaylhub said, if you have the impression she is "just holding out," then you might want to rethink things. I think it would be best to have a long talk with her & try to judge just how big of a deal it is to her. If it isn't something you can talk about, then you have a big red flag right off the bat. I don't know of any ex-christians who have made the decision to de-convert with study, time & thoughtful analysis that have ever gone back to religion (the one's who de-convert purely because of an emotional letdown sometimes do though). There is a saying that goes something like "Women marry a guy hoping they will change, while guys marry girls hoping they WON'T!" There is a lot of truth to this statement...

 

I had a Psych prof once who gave a really good litmus test I'll pass on to you. If a couple disagrees on two out of three of three fundemental things, the relationship has almost zero chance for success. Abortion, religion & politics were the three he cited, but he didn't limit it to those three.

 

thats just my take ...hope it's of some use!

[bob]

If a couple disagrees on two out of three of three fundemental things, the relationship has almost zero chance for success. Abortion, religion & politics were the three he cited, but he didn't limit it to those three.

Me and my girlfriend disagree on all three.

Suddenly my tummy is upset

[Light_of_Reason]

Just be totally honest about the religion issue. Be honest with her, and honest with yourself.

 

That way you won't have to fake anything. And if she decides there's some big problem with being with you, she'll have pleny of opportunity to bail.

 

Otherwise if it's going well, and both of you are happy, there's no reason to end it. Religion can be an issue, but only if you guys make it an issue.

 

I haven't seen truer words in a great many other places. My wife (evangelical Christian of S. Baptist upbringing) and I (godless wonderdog) get along just fine for the most part. I'm totally honest with her about religion, she's totally honest with me, and we don't make an issue of that difference between us as long as I take her to church (of my choosing so nothing too conservative) every now and again.

 

Way I figure it, one or two wasted hours a month at church isn't gonna kill me or alter my views. Hell, often it even serves to strengthen my views while adding more ammo to aim at annoying fundamentalist evangelical apologist types.

 

If the same can work for you, more power to ya. But it takes two to keep religion from becoming an issue, so if she wants it to be an issue with your relationship, you may be better off looking elsewhere.

[Checkmate]

There is a saying that goes something like "Women marry a guy hoping they will change, while guys marry girls hoping they WON'T!" There is a lot of truth to this statement...

Never heard that before, but MAN, what a truth! Dead on target. I also agree 100% with the rest of your post.

 

AP, just be honest and don't be the one to make a big deal out of things. But DO probe and test the waters. If Religion is going to be a "deal breaker", it's best to find out now and bail, before you do something stupid, like get married and have children. Good luck!

[AbsolutPauer]

She kept up the relationship with you because she hoped you would change and come back to the Lord™. Now that it's clear you aren't going to, she is working up the courage to dump you.

 

I'm kind of getting this impression too. Though it's taking her a long time to work up the courage. As far as I know she's never dumped anyone before. It makes me want to take the initiative and lead conversation in such a way that we can "agree to just be friends." I think this is preferable to one party dumping the other, especially if we're both in agreement. I'm certainly not interested in playing "Pretend Christian."

 

AP, just be honest and don't be the one to make a big deal out of things. But DO probe and test the waters. If Religion is going to be a "deal breaker", it's best to find out now and bail, before you do something stupid, like get married and have children. Good luck!

 

The marriage and children issue came up recently, and the question is of course, "What will we teach the kids?" I could embrace being a "cultural Christian" for the sake of a family, going to church on Sundays and participating in church-related activities. I cannot, however, embrace fundamentalism. Yes, she is a bit of a fundy. Biblical inerrancy, 6-day young-earth creationism, eternal damnation in hell, the works. And she wants to pass all these things along to her kids. I have a bit of a problem telling kids they deserve to go to hell. Maybe that's just me.

 

Ah well, if it must end, then it must. I'd like to at least wait till after Christmas. Oh, and did I mention that December 27th is our anniversary?

[Kryten]

If a couple disagrees on two out of three of three fundemental things, the relationship has almost zero chance for success. Abortion, religion & politics were the three he cited, but he didn't limit it to those three.

Me and my girlfriend disagree on all three.

Suddenly my tummy is upset

Bob, try these:

Sex

Finances

Goals in life

 

Any hits there?

[Kryten]

She kept up the relationship with you because she hoped you would change and come back to the Lord™. Now that it's clear you aren't going to, she is working up the courage to dump you.

 

I'm kind of getting this impression too. Though it's taking her a long time to work up the courage. As far as I know she's never dumped anyone before. It makes me want to take the initiative and lead conversation in such a way that we can "agree to just be friends." I think this is preferable to one party dumping the other, especially if we're both in agreement. I'm certainly not interested in playing "Pretend Christian."

 

AP, just be honest and don't be the one to make a big deal out of things. But DO probe and test the waters. If Religion is going to be a "deal breaker", it's best to find out now and bail, before you do something stupid, like get married and have children. Good luck!

 

The marriage and children issue came up recently, and the question is of course, "What will we teach the kids?" I could embrace being a "cultural Christian" for the sake of a family, going to church on Sundays and participating in church-related activities. I cannot, however, embrace fundamentalism. Yes, she is a bit of a fundy. Biblical inerrancy, 6-day young-earth creationism, eternal damnation in hell, the works. And she wants to pass all these things along to her kids. I have a bit of a problem telling kids they deserve to go to hell. Maybe that's just me.

 

Ah well, if it must end, then it must. I'd like to at least wait till after Christmas. Oh, and did I mention that December 27th is our anniversary?

I would strongly encourage you to NOT initiate a break up with her unless you really would rather be with someone else. I am in a similar situation. My wife and I met while I was a believer, which was one of the main things she liked about me. I've since deconverted, but she hasn't. Even AFTER I dumped Christianity, she still wanted to stay with me, and eventually she wanted to get married.

 

The POINT is that your girlfriend may be trying to justify how she can stay with you despite the differences. I'm sure she's looking at all the qualities she likes about you and trying to determine what's most important.

Don't assume a break-up. Show her that a non-believer can still be good and treat her the way she deserves.

 

You have an advantage in that you can put HER first in your life, while a Christian man is forced to put JESUS first (and perhaps the church, some prophecy, etc), pushing her down to second, or worse.

[Kuroikaze]

 

The marriage and children issue came up recently, and the question is of course, "What will we teach the kids?" I could embrace being a "cultural Christian" for the sake of a family, going to church on Sundays and participating in church-related activities. I cannot, however, embrace fundamentalism. Yes, she is a bit of a fundy. Biblical inerrancy, 6-day young-earth creationism, eternal damnation in hell, the works. And she wants to pass all these things along to her kids. I have a bit of a problem telling kids they deserve to go to hell. Maybe that's just me.

 

Ah well, if it must end, then it must. I'd like to at least wait till after Christmas. Oh, and did I mention that December 27th is our anniversary?

 

I have to ask....considering how fundy she is, What exactly do you like about this woman?

 

I'm not saying you should break up mind you....but I just have a hard time imagining myself romanticly interisted in a fundamentalist, a more liberal christian sure, but not a fundy, so I'm just wondering what you like about her?

[AbsolutPauer]

I would strongly encourage you to NOT initiate a break up with her unless you really would rather be with someone else. I am in a similar situation. My wife and I met while I was a believer, which was one of the main things she liked about me. I've since deconverted, but she hasn't. Even AFTER I dumped Christianity, she still wanted to stay with me, and eventually she wanted to get married.

 

Kryten, thank you for sharing your experience. After posting the last message, I started thinking to myself, "Okay, if I'm not going to be with this woman, what type of person would I rather be with?" So I started making a list of qualities I'm looking for, and most of the qualities I listed were qualities that she has. The ones she did not have weren't really compatible with the other qualities anyway. So if I was looking to be with someone else, they would likely end up being very similar to my current girlfriend in most ways. So yes, it seems rather silly for me to initiate a break-up.

 

If you don't mind my asking, has your lack of belief been a point of contention in your marriage at any point? If so, to what degree has it been a problem, and how have you dealt with it?

 

I have to ask....considering how fundy she is, What exactly do you like about this woman?

 

I'm not saying you should break up mind you....but I just have a hard time imagining myself romanticly interisted in a fundamentalist, a more liberal christian sure, but not a fundy, so I'm just wondering what you like about her?

 

Well, physical attraction was the natural first stage of our relationship, and that is certainly still there. I also happen to like women of conviction. It provides a nice counterbalance to my more easy-going nature. I also like that she's goal-oriented and family-oriented. She's also honest, if a little less than willing to share her thoughts sometimes.

[Kryten]

Kryten, thank you for sharing your experience. After posting the last message, I started thinking to myself, "Okay, if I'm not going to be with this woman, what type of person would I rather be with?" So I started making a list of qualities I'm looking for, and most of the qualities I listed were qualities that she has. The ones she did not have weren't really compatible with the other qualities anyway. So if I was looking to be with someone else, they would likely end up being very similar to my current girlfriend in most ways. So yes, it seems rather silly for me to initiate a break-up.

 

If you don't mind my asking, has your lack of belief been a point of contention in your marriage at any point? If so, to what degree has it been a problem, and how have you dealt with it?

We've only been married a few months and I've been an EX-C for less than a year, but it's only been a minor issue. My lack of belief is based on evidence, and I can use only the Bible if she wants to play that way. I can fully justify all of my beliefs. I think she knows I MIGHT be right, but doesn't care, nor does she want to give up all her beliefs. She doesn't attend church anymore-- the fundy one she went to was too judgemental and hypocritical for her, so we get to sleep in together on Sundays. I never push her, but every once in a while I point out some error or lie that most Christians believe.

We are very happy with each other so there's no reason for either of us to try and change the other.

[not1not2]

She kept up the relationship with you because she hoped you would change and come back to the Lord™. Now that it's clear you aren't going to, she is working up the courage to dump you.

 

I'm kind of getting this impression too. Though it's taking her a long time to work up the courage. As far as I know she's never dumped anyone before. It makes me want to take the initiative and lead conversation in such a way that we can "agree to just be friends." I think this is preferable to one party dumping the other, especially if we're both in agreement. I'm certainly not interested in playing "Pretend Christian."

 

AP, just be honest and don't be the one to make a big deal out of things. But DO probe and test the waters. If Religion is going to be a "deal breaker", it's best to find out now and bail, before you do something stupid, like get married and have children. Good luck!

 

The marriage and children issue came up recently, and the question is of course, "What will we teach the kids?" I could embrace being a "cultural Christian" for the sake of a family, going to church on Sundays and participating in church-related activities. I cannot, however, embrace fundamentalism. Yes, she is a bit of a fundy. Biblical inerrancy, 6-day young-earth creationism, eternal damnation in hell, the works. And she wants to pass all these things along to her kids. I have a bit of a problem telling kids they deserve to go to hell. Maybe that's just me.

 

Ah well, if it must end, then it must. I'd like to at least wait till after Christmas. Oh, and did I mention that December 27th is our anniversary?

 

Eek, fundies are frightening. Making literal, historical interpretations out of spiritual teachings is sooo confusing to me. However, as long as she's for biblical innerrency, why not discuss the noahide laws:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws

The seven laws are:

 

1. Shefichat damim - Do not murder.

2. Gezel - Do not steal.

3. Avodah zarah - Do not worship false gods/idols.

4. Gilui arayot - Do not be sexually immoral (forbidden sexual acts are traditionally interpreted to include incest, sodomy, male homosexual sex acts and adultery.)

5. Birkat Hashem - Do not blaspheme.

6. Dinim - Set up righteous and honest courts and apply fair justice in judging offenders and uphold the principles of the last five.

7. Ever min ha-chai - Do not eat anything of the body of an unslaughtered animal (given to Noah)

 

The Talmud also states: "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). Any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as one of "the righteous among the gentiles". Maimonides states that this refers to those who have acquired knowledge of God and act in accordance with the Noahide laws.

 

Granted its Talmudic, but it still is biblically based.

 

Also, why not ask her for what the NT says about marrying non-believers (I believe it states that somehow the marraige redeems the non-believer). Also, do remind her that Jesus says people are judged off of what they know, and by the 'measure they meet out'. So, if you don't know whether the bible is true in a sincere way, you're good to go. And as long as you aren't a hypocrite, looks like you'll do just find. Additionally, ask where eternal damnation is stated in the bible? In my knowledge, Revelation only says that the devil, hell and death will be thrown in the lake of eternal fire.

 

A good book for you might be Beyond Belief by Elaine Pagels. It really explains how the canon was formed and why certain books were kept while others were thrown out, and also calls the authority of the Gospel of John into question a great deal. And my copy has the nice little addition of the Gospel of Thomas.

 

_/\_