ToHellWithMe Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 After a nice long break I'm having problems with religious people. Funny thing is I'm currently in Japan which I thought to be a very secular society. Oh well, I guess it mostly is, but I happened to run to local fundies in the form of a Buddhism club in local college that I exchanged into 2.5 months ago. They're Buddhists of a messianic and evangelical sect (called Jodo Shinshu). What you probably will find amusing is that they believe in a (long time dead) buddha called Amida Buddha who will save those who believe in him. This is done by changing all the bad karma into good karma and then when you die you'll be reborn as an Enlightened One instead of ending up in a life of suffering. Practically not much different from Jesus myth and Christian way of getting saved. Fact that I found both amusing and revolting at the same time. Also it was disheartening to learn that this is the biggest denomination of Buddhism in Japan today. I wonder why this "with belief only" and savior based model is particularly successful... One day they just stroke up a convo in a corridor at school and invited me to a evening meeting of theirs. (This I found very weird. Japanese rarely say anything to people they've not been properly introduced to. And if they do it's probably something about weather. An invitation given right out of blue is something unheard of.) I went out of curiosity, not yet knowing even Buddhism can take ugly forms and not really having understood what I'd be facing this particular night. Turned out to be a mistake. Had to listen to a lecture in Japanese (which I don't understand much yet) for 2 hours sitting on the floor in seiza, which was painful. I decided to never return but turned out it wasn't that easy. They often spotted me at school and invited me to several lunch-hour meetings, and I wasn't able to decline all of the invitations. Using excuses like "I don't have time today" was a mistake they immediately exploited. Usually those are taken as hints of disinterest, and that's what i meant them to be, but instead they took them literally and countered with "how 'bout tomorrow?" or "then how 'bout day after tomorrow?". Also, there was a love-bombing aspect in that they also invited me to nice stuff that I went to eagerly. Like taking me to local interesting restaurants, me joining them to do shopping and joining them to chat unimportant stuff over lunch at school (they mostly talked about me, showing great interested in everyday stuff like how I'm doing with my homework). Well I guess you get the idea already. Anyway that went on for 4 weeks and only yesterday I could gather up enough willpower to tell them directly I'm not interested and I prefer to use my time in more relevant stuff and that I already know a religion called Christianity all too well and theirs isn't different enough from it to appeal to me. I expected this to be an effective way to break up with them as hints and expressing reluctance didn't work. At first it seemed like it had worked. The guy who I talked to had his smile melt away in a promising way and also another one who happened to overhear winced when it dawned on him I'm "betraying" them. Yet when I finally returned from school at 6pm I found the same guy I had talked to waiting on my front door with cookie box. He said he wanted to "discuss" some stuff with me. (I heard the word "discuss" in an ominous way even though he used it normally.) I was in a hurry to meet a friend for supper so it was easy to turn his offer down. He left me the cookies, though. Felt bad for taking it (couldn't think of a nice way to refuse it in Japanese) and having had him wait for me for 30mins I promised to meet him on lunch next Monday. So I guess I'm back to the old shit. Only that now I have once refused properly, though, so I'm hoping rejection will be easier in future, if they venture into religion again. And I fear they will. Also even if they won't in a while I don't know if I'll be able to enjoy their company. I feel they're not being nice to me out of interest in me as a person (honestly, I'm able to discuss only very simple things with my clumsy Japanese, usually coming across as a retard) but as a potential convert. Anyways, thank you for your attention, fellow exers. X) I fear I'll have to use you to let out frustration in the future also. Probably starting next Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 Wow. And here I thought most Japanese people were sane. It's sad to see that they're falling into the same cult mentality as the U.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 I wonder why this "with belief only" and savior based model is particularly successful... Doesn't surprise me a bit. The "get out of hell free" aspect is very alluring to lazy people. Don't have to DO anything, except "believe"? Someone else "pays" the freight? "Cool! Where can I sign up?" Most of us bought this pitch hook, line and sinker. Many of us even used it in evangelism. Part of the Pascal's Wager Package deal. "It's free and what have you got to lose?" No. I'm not at all surprised by this methodology. All things being equal, it is probably the Most Effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick5 Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 "Wow. And here I thought most Japanese people were sane. " Hey most Japanese people ARE sane though. I've spent my whole summer there and it's the most amazing place I've ever been to. Best time of my life! But, there are crazy people everywhere, even in teh best places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 Hey most Japanese people ARE sane though. I've spent my whole summer there and it's the most amazing place I've ever been to. Best time of my life! Glad to hear that. But, there are crazy people everywhere, even in the best places. Yeah, that is true, unfortunately. There will always be cults as long as there are gullible people around willing to be parted with their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted December 17, 2005 Share Posted December 17, 2005 Funny to read this. I just got home after an evening discussing irriducible complexities and the fact that "front line biologists are now denying traditional evolutionary theory as "passe" " with a British expat here in St. Pete. I too have been enjoying my freedom from fundies only to meet one far from their home turf. All was not lost as he was quite entertaining and intelligent. The conversation was pleasant when discussing all but religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToHellWithMe Posted December 18, 2005 Author Share Posted December 18, 2005 I'm not even getting to enjoy arguments because my language skill doesn't allow it. Yet, on one occasion me and the guy who's most eagerly trying to convert me discussed the Karma system. I noticed that this topic I can take to the meta level and then be able to discuss it using pretty simple words. I said that to believe in the Karma system I would first have to believe that there is an entity called 'soul', and I don't see a reason to believe even in that. Thus, talking about under what kind of system this 'soul' functions is meaningless. He couldn't understand why I wouldn't find it obvious there has to be a system of Perfect Justice and reverted back to a topic we had already discussed couple of days ago, as if I couldn't remember them already. I suppose he was basically trying to hammer the same old crap principles of their religion to my head, hoping to have me accept them by the ultimate technique of repetition. I seriously think he sees me as a retard because I'm so pathetic when I try to speak Japanese. ... The more I re-think all this crap the more I'm starting to doubt whether I really am a retard to have tolerated those loonies' condescending company every now and then for a whole month already even though I've regretted it more and more from the first day on. I should be angry but I just smile and feel uneasy every time I see them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpooky Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 The burgeoning industry of hentai and tentacle monsters will take care of this group shortly. Mmm. Tentacles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 man that sucks, I want to go to japan someday. Hope I don't have to deal with these jerks when I get there. Mr. Spooky has a good idea though, let them "accedently" walk in on you watching hentai....if they are like christian fundies they will hit the road Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 You can go to just about ANY country and have the same problem. When I was in Korea had Christian Koreans and Buddhists both trying to win me over. In England I had someone wanting me to become Muslim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Perhaps you should kindly inform these people that the Buddha flatly rejected the soul doctrine. I have no problem with Pureland Buddhism, it has some genuine practices and some wonderful practitioners, but Jodo Shinsu seems to be a bit off the Buddhist path. While rebirth is an accepted buddhist doctrine, it is much misunderstood and accepting it requires a firsthand cognition of many high level buddhist ideas in order to not be mere superstition. Additionally, I'm not sure the actual distinction between Amida Buddha and Amitabha Buddha, but the purelanders I've talked to seem to regard Amida as an aspect of conscousness that teaches on a very subtle level. Through chanting, they both develop concentration and generate a positive mental attitude. I personally cannot swallow this form of buddhism, but I can see its affectiveness. _/\_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Perhaps you should kindly inform these people that the Buddha flatly rejected the soul doctrine. I have no problem with Pureland Buddhism, it has some genuine practices and some wonderful practitioners, but Jodo Shinsu seems to be a bit off the Buddhist path. While rebirth is an accepted buddhist doctrine, it is much misunderstood and accepting it requires a firsthand cognition of many high level buddhist ideas in order to not be mere superstition. Additionally, I'm not sure the actual distinction between Amida Buddha and Amitabha Buddha, but the purelanders I've talked to seem to regard Amida as an aspect of conscousness that teaches on a very subtle level. Through chanting, they both develop concentration and generate a positive mental attitude. I personally cannot swallow this form of buddhism, but I can see its affectiveness. _/\_ Just some clarification. I did a very small bit of research on the subject. Apparently, Jodo Shinsu a Japanese school of Pureland Buddhism. Here's an interesting article on the similar aspects of Jodo Shinsu (Shin Buddhism) and Christianity. http://www.seattlebetsuin.com/Is_Shin_Budd...hristianity.htm This may be of interest to you. I'm not sure whether it will change your opinion much though. Hope you are doing well over in Japan (lucky). _/\_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not1not2 Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 well, apparently we can't edit our posts. So sorry about another reply. Anyway, I meant to say Jodo Shinsu was a major japanese school of Pureland. Still, I'm not sure how much these people are or aren't representative of the school, though my research indicates that this sort of experience is not uncommon. As a side note, Pureland is a late development as far as Buddhism goes. Here is some info on its development and its beliefs: http://www.cloudwater.org/pureland.html Sorry about the excessive posts _/\_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sage Nabooru Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 I am Buddhist (Fo Guang Shan), but one of the primary tenets of Buddhism (in my opinion) is the one most often forgotten: The Buddha himself said that it would be wrong to simply take and eat anything he said. One must ponder it closely, meditate on it, even argue with oneself against it! And if you find that whatever part of dharma you're debating just doesn't fit with you, abandon it. The goal of Buddhism is the end of suffering, not the continuation of it by forcing oneself to live with doctrines that one does not truly believe in. If you find true happiness and relief from suffering in a belief that some dharma master says isn't a part of Buddhism - who is he or the Buddha to tell you that you are wrong? Buddhism is about inner peace and not outer harassment. A puritanical Buddhist is not really a Buddhist. To me, Buddhism is really all about basic ideas and not dogma and religion in a traditional sense. That is why you will find myriad sects and belief systems in Buddhism alone. Some believe in God, some believe in gods, some believe in neither, and some simply say that it is unanswerable because nobody can put the idea of God into a boundary and thus define what "God" really is. The same goes with the soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodhi-in-Training Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 It is very rare for anyone to have people try to convert them in Buddhism on this side of the pond, at least as far as I know all the Western Buddhists I've met have converted themselves. But they are human and their are some bad organizations out there. I think as far as this lot goes you need to trust your own judgment. My gut feeling would be to turn heel and run! If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... There is a story about a man who approached Buddha in hopes of converting him, and after listening to Buddha decided he wanted to be a follower, but Buddha answered "Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself." He was not interested in amassing disciples. That in mind, as a Buddhist, I don't typically don't share my knowledge unless someone specifically asks me. You may want to point that out next time you have a run in with these guys. I'm truly sorry you had to encounter people like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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