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Goodbye Jesus

Deep Fear Of Hell.


GettingDown

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I'm not worried about it, i just never considered that I have never considered the other 'hells' :D

 

But thanks for being thoughtful ;)

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Hi guys what you think about near death experiences? And when people say they went to hell and they come back a believer in christ? Or even when atheists do it? 

 

GD, I didn't get to your first question.  I heard of one of these accounts when I was a teenager, it was dramatized on a late night TV show.  That was in the late 70's, and it was before I got stuck in that state of mind that was hell.  It wasn't too much later that I started collecting as much data as I could about nde's, they come in certain varieties, with one most common to all, the tunnel and light at the end of it.  The hell account was unique until now your account makes 2 that I've heard, compared to the hundred I've heard of the tunnel of light scenario with warmth and love, which is cross-cultural btw.  There was another christian account I read that was absolutely ridiculous about this kid who died and went to a real place to interact with all the bible characters.  Christians were reading it.  I cataloged it as a "nde" but based on the nature of other accounts, it has no credibility.

 

I think the others are right about the mind staying alive.  The mind harbors all kinds of hellish things.  If his sentience got stuck in there for a bit, it could suck.  If he remembered fragments of it, I could see it driving someone to a promise of salvation if they didn't know better.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe it's primarily the Catholic tradition that teaches a waiting place, however, I do recall a description in Revelation that has people under an alter waiting for the Kingdom and final glory.  Do any other religions support that idea?

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Hi guys what you think about near death experiences? And when people say they went to hell and they come back a believer in christ? Or even when atheists do it? 

 

GD, I didn't get to your first question.  I heard of one of these accounts when I was a teenager, it was dramatized on a late night TV show.  That was in the late 70's, and it was before I got stuck in that state of mind that was hell.  It wasn't too much later that I started collecting as much data as I could about nde's, they come in certain varieties, with one most common to all, the tunnel and light at the end of it.  The hell account was unique until now your account makes 2 that I've heard, compared to the hundred I've heard of the tunnel of light scenario with warmth and love, which is cross-cultural btw.  There was another christian account I read that was absolutely ridiculous about this kid who died and went to a real place to interact with all the bible characters.  Christians were reading it.  I cataloged it as a "nde" but based on the nature of other accounts, it has no credibility.

 

I think the others are right about the mind staying alive.  The mind harbors all kinds of hellish things.  If his sentience got stuck in there for a bit, it could suck.  If he remembered fragments of it, I could see it driving someone to a promise of salvation if they didn't know better.

 

If I'm not mistaken, I believe it's primarily the Catholic tradition that teaches a waiting place, however, I do recall a description in Revelation that has people under an alter waiting for the Kingdom and final glory.  Do any other religions support that idea?

 

 

I am reading about near death experiences. It seems that even muslims see jesus, and atheists have come back saying they have seen jesus and converted. This is what scares me, what if i am wrong? And even if god was real, i cannot believe in the god of the bible.

 

muslims support the idea of being in a "wait" also.

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So now I am thinking I must become a christian. I feel scared and uncomfortable. I like my life the way it is, but these near death experiences are freaking me out. Especially because I hear of muslims and atheists a like become christians after that. Everything is based on fear for me though, nothing else.

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So now I am thinking I must become a christian. I feel scared and uncomfortable. I like my life the way it is, but these near death experiences are freaking me out. Especially because I hear of muslims and atheists a like become christians after that. Everything is based on fear for me though, nothing else.

look at my last post. seeing jesus makes no sense if you believe that they are dead until judgment day.

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I am reading about near death experiences. It seems that even muslims see jesus, and atheists have come back saying they have seen jesus and converted. This is what scares me, what if i am wrong? And even if god was real, i cannot believe in the god of the bible.

  • Jesus is part of Islamic mythology, so this is not surprising.
  • Many atheists live in a culture with a Christian majority, and have been receiving Christian messages all their lives. Such messages can easily come to fore in a near death experience. As critical thinking is no prerequisite for being an atheist, some can be fooled into thinking the vision is real.
  • How trustworthy is your source? I have learned not to trust Christian storytellers, as they will gladly believe any story on faith (think about it!) if it upholds their world view. And I quite often get suspicious of stories by “former atheists” who regurgitate every Christian stereotype about atheists when describing their former lives.
  • What if you’re wrong? Google “Pascal’s wager” and put your mind at ease.
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I like the way Dusty Smith puts it. To paraphrase; 'The only thing less reliable than the testimony of a human brain is the testimony of a dying, oxygen-starved human brain'.

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I wonder what your sources are for the nde's you're reading of. So many conversion accounts tells me the sources are from a christian book store or christian websites or other christian sources.

 

Statistically you will find fewer such accounts by reading sources that are not christian. My data is a very general survey, not biassed by toward any one faith. I have these 2 (hell and conversion) accounts mentioned earlier, and that other hardly credible account to show for conversion stories from near death experiences, all the rest are very plain, just descriptions of light at the end of a tunnel, and of love and family greeting them. Many agreed they didn't want to come back. I have somewhere around 100. That's 3 in 100 that lead to christian conversions from my data set, and that's if you count that wacked one. If not, it's 2 in 100..

 

I have one account where she came back with a profound belief in reincarnation. Until then I hated the idea of reincarnation and rejected it completely. After hearing what she had to say about it I decided to at least give it some attention. I have to admit, though I still don't care for the idea of reincarnation, that I can understand now why people would believe in it, and have an appreciation for it that I didn't before. I'm not ready to convert to reincarnationist doctrine by any means.

 

So what are your sources? Why are you looking just in places where people have written conversion stories?

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GD, I understand your fear. I belonged to the Pentecostal church for a long time so I got plenty of indoctrination about hell. The things I have learned on EX-c has helped so much in taking away the majority of my fear.

 

One of the things that really helped me a lot was to start at the very beginning of the bible and read how the events of mankind started according to this so called word of god. Genesis alone makes the Christian god look so stupid in the way he even began his whole creation. He was a dumb god hon. He even had to resort to sacrificing his own son. How fucking stupid is that? Even you could have made a better plan for mankind. I mean, read Genesis...he even wants Adam to pick from the animals which one will be his 'helpmate'.

Then he decides to make 'wo-man???Wendybanghead.gif

 

Study Genesis alone and you will soon see that this ancient tribal god did not really know what he was doing. Adam, Eve, talking snake, floods to wipe out mankind,  claiming that he regretted  making us?? (Genesis 6: 7 ''So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created--and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground--for I regret that I have made them." Wendyshrug.gif )  He used genocide to prove his points all through the holy book to the point of sacrificing his son??? None of it makes sense to me anymore. It never really did. Even when I was a faithful 'servant' of the lord, I questioned all these things.

 

Remember, this is the god who is supposed to be the smartest 'spirit' in the universe???

 

Keep reading and studying hon. It does get better. *Hug*

 

The Bible is filled with hundreds of examples like these in which it describes god in ways that make him out as "stupid" or downright evil. And we should all, as thinking and rational beings, take a hard look at the issues surrounding the way god is described in the Bible, and ask ourselves if these descriptions are true. We have to look at the biblical stories and match them up with our own ideas about how a god is suppose to act. Or look at the descriptions of god and see if they match up to the rumors.

 

Can an all knowing god regret making mankind? No. Either he is not all knowing or he made some pretty stupid people and didn't take into account what evil would do to them.

 

And where did evil come from? Well if the Bible says god created everything and one of those things is evil... then the question answers itself.

 

Can an all loving god be filled with rage, and a desire for revenge? No, but if so, than this god is unstable and lacks emotional intelligence.

 

Would a god create a hell to torment human beings for eternity? No, but if yes, than he lacks empathy, compassion, and ultimately, forgiveness. You or I wouldn't throw a person in a lake of fire. So if god created us, than he created us with more compassion than he has.

 

If think if people are willing to have the courage to believe they have the right and the ability to ask these kinds of questions, then de-conversion becomes much easier.

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Regarding near death experiences (NDE), I've researched hundreds of them, and these experiences are completely culturally based. For example, I researched some Buddhist NDE's from Thailand, and a common theme that emerged was the presence of their respective spirit guides, the Yamatoots. In nearly 90% of the experiences, these Yamatoots were present, but there was not one single reference to the appearance of Jesus. Additionally, these NDE's consistently contained examples where the individual experiencing it would be told by some sort of administrator that there was a clerical error, and they sent the wrong person (i.e. it wasn't his/her time). Such technicalities concerning death is not part of our western culture, and that's why you never get reports of this experience in western NDE's. Hindu NDE's were similar to Buddhist ones, but both were dissimilar to western ones.

 

There are also tons of reports of heavenly and blissful NDE's from people who held no particular religious convictions. That fact certainly contradicts what the bible teaches about unsaved people.  

 

I empathize with you, as this type of fear is completely debilitating, and can cause major psychological problems if you allow it to control your life. Please do whatever you need to, in order to alleviate your fears.. which are unfounded..  For myself, through heavy research into the topic, I was able to free myself from the stranglehold it had on me.

 

Hell is a man made creation- it is not real!

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There are also tons of reports of heavenly and blissful NDE's from people who held no particular religious convictions. That fact certainly contradicts what the bible teaches about unsaved people. 

 

Yes, I have read about some of these as well, and always wondered about that. Either Biblegod is more forgiving than the Christians would have us believe, or it is just a physical reaction of an oxygen-starved brain. I'm sticking with the latter.

 

Your post was very helpful. Thanks!

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Regarding near death experiences (NDE), I've researched hundreds of them, and these experiences are completely culturally based. For example, I researched some Buddhist NDE's from Thailand, and a common theme that emerged was the presence of their respective spirit guides, the Yamatoots. In nearly 90% of the experiences, these Yamatoots were present, but there was not one single reference to the appearance of Jesus. Additionally, these NDE's consistently contained examples where the individual experiencing it would be told by some sort of administrator that there was a clerical error, and they sent the wrong person (i.e. it wasn't his/her time). Such technicalities concerning death is not part of our western culture, and that's why you never get reports of this experience in western NDE's. Hindu NDE's were similar to Buddhist ones, but both were dissimilar to western ones.

 

There are also tons of reports of heavenly and blissful NDE's from people who held no particular religious convictions. That fact certainly contradicts what the bible teaches about unsaved people.  

 

I empathize with you, as this type of fear is completely debilitating, and can cause major psychological problems if you allow it to control your life. Please do whatever you need to, in order to alleviate your fears.. which are unfounded..  For myself, through heavy research into the topic, I was able to free myself from the stranglehold it had on me.

 

Hell is a man made creation- it is not real!

This is a good post, DAZE, thank you.

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Just to nail home that very good point, here's a massive archive of NDE accounts, so you can read for yourself.

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Cousin Ricky said:

Are you worried about ending up in the Islamic hell for not following Islam? Why does the Christian hell bother you so, while you give no thought to the Islamic hell?

 

(Can't do quotes on my phone! )

 

This was eye opening for me, thank you :-)

This is an excellent point and a legitmate question. The only reason people are Christians is because they grew up in a geographical location where Christianity was taught. In other parts of the world people believe in entirely different beliefs about hell and heaven and all beliefs in between. All things considered, people believe in beliefs because of how beliefs make them feel, which has nothing to do with whether or not a belief is actually true.

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I've read some on the site suggested. It just made me more worried, even though the majority had nothing to do with the Christian god-Jesus. It's like I have an obsession with fear.

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I've read some on the site suggested. It just made me more worried, even though the majority had nothing to do with the Christian god-Jesus. It's like I have an obsession with fear.

 

Give yourself some time.  There's no reason to jump to the conclusion that you're OCD or something similar just because you fear hell.  It's quite normal for someone who was indoctrinated during their developmental years to struggle with this issue.  I know at one time it was a huge issue for me as well.

 

What worked for me was knowledge and logic.  I just studied my way out of the fear.  The more I knew, the smaller the bogey man got until it all just disappeared completely.  It's probably why I to this day have a love for learning and a penchant for logic and critical thinking.  It was these tools that stripped the fears away.

 

There are some really good books out there on critical thinking skills as well as sources on the internet.  It would be my advice to start with these and see where it leads you.  At worst, you'll be able to better spot bullshit for the effort. 

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Thank you! I am actually in the process of doing that my friend who is a pyschology grad (who is also an ex-Christian is helping me). I've had a few coincidences today which have scared me a little. I constantly need to reassure myself, and I'm sure developing my critical thinking skills further would benefit me. It's funny how I can use those skills in everything except this foolery called religion.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thank you! I am actually in the process of doing that my friend who is a pyschology grad (who is also an ex-Christian is helping me). I've had a few coincidences today which have scared me a little. I constantly need to reassure myself, and I'm sure developing my critical thinking skills further would benefit me. It's funny how I can use those skills in everything except this foolery called religion.

It gets better GettingDown and faster than you may realize. Once you start associating with more freethinkers, and learn that there are so many other ways to think about and appreciate life, the fear of hell will dissappear.

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