What Is The Gospel?

[Fernweh]

 

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world...."

 

If god loved the world why did he condemn all humanity to eternal torture before they ( except for Adam and Eve) committed any sin? Why did he create the human race knowing when he created them that he would send the vast majority of them to eternal torture?

Why was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil allowed to be in the Garden of Eden? Why was Satan?

Why did god not simply obliterate sin before he created humans? Why does god play childish games with deadly consequences?

 

Has any Xtian ever answered the above questions in a sensible way?

                                                                                                              biii

I speculated once that He was looking for a true friend/companionship.

 

Edit: He ran into the same sheeit that the rest of us men has run into.  Eve, the prototype of what He wished was different.

 

 

Can you clarify this statement?

[Guest end3]

Just my own thoughts so don't crucify me.  Just thinking even if one were omni-whatever, how would you manifest a companion that was independent to compliment your own omni-ness?

[LifeCycle]

Just my own thoughts so don't crucify me.  Just thinking even if one were omni-whatever, how would you manifest a companion that was independent to compliment your own omni-ness?

Why would a perfect being need or want a companion?  The mere need or desire is a display of imperfection isn't it?

[Guest end3]

 

Just my own thoughts so don't crucify me.  Just thinking even if one were omni-whatever, how would you manifest a companion that was independent to compliment your own omni-ness?

Why would a perfect being need or want a companion?  The mere need or desire is a display of imperfection isn't it?

 

Above my pay grade brother.  Sorry.

[Guest end3]

But that gives rise to another speculative thought.  Let's say perfection within a particular manifestation is "harmony", then there would have to be a competing harmony or manifestation.....or am I thinking too far outside the box.  In other words, if God and his manifestation is perfection, and He is everything. then how would he not know about a perfection that potentially exists outside of his own self?

 

Again, I can't get harmony right for myself.  so I am planning some liquid harmonizer this evening to get there.

[Fernweh]

Just my own thoughts so don't crucify me.  Just thinking even if one were omni-whatever, how would you manifest a companion that was independent to compliment your own omni-ness?

Oh, for a second I thought you were trying to say Eve was a failure and the cause of all mankind's troubles. But that's not what you were implying at all, right? Right?

[midniterider]

When I left church behind, I left behind an artificial, hypocritical, happy-clappy nightmare of guilt, shame, and despair. This was no bride of Christ, but a decrepit, diseased, whoring witch on her 200th plastic surgery. She wasn't even as noble as a real whore. A real whore takes money, but she wasn't taking money, no. Instead she's like a desperate wizened nymphomaniac adulterous, paying all her money on gigolos, and not clean ones either, but unwashed AIDS-ridden park junkies, whose members oozed from open sores.

 

It was very hard for me when I first heard the gospel. The gospel was so counter to what I'd learned in church for decades, I felt like I couldn't even comprehend it. I was so angry.

 

What is the gospel?

 

How do you know you heard the gospel if you are asking what the gospel is?

[florduh]

How do you know you heard the gospel if you are asking what the gospel is?

 

 

That is the question, isn't it?

[midniterider]

But that gives rise to another speculative thought.  Let's say perfection within a particular manifestation is "harmony", then there would have to be a competing harmony or manifestation.....or am I thinking too far outside the box.  In other words, if God and his manifestation is perfection, and He is everything. then how would he not know about a perfection that potentially exists outside of his own self?

 

Again, I can't get harmony right for myself.  so I am planning some liquid harmonizer this evening to get there.

 

If God is everything how could something exist outside himself?

[JamesG]

End3 I wrote  a pretty good in depth thread that discussed why Adam and Eve were created

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/57175-adam-got-no-help-no-help-indeed/?hl=%2Badam+%2Bgot+%2Bno+%2Bhelp

and here the bible spells it out

 

Genesis 2:15 "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it."

 

there is also this

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/56981-adam-gets-my-eve/page-1

 

Its not above any ones pay grade it just requires reading genesis.

[barnacleben]

Ben, we all know that the gospel is the statement that Jesus died for our sins that we might live in him and walk in newness of life, being forgiven all our sins. The first church I went to was not like what you described. People were friendly and the gospel was preached in accordance with evangelical doctrine. This church was conservative and evangelical, but not fundamentalist. The only reason I left is because I moved to a new city.

 

I didn't leave Jesus because my church was dysfunctional. I left because I was born in another religion and ultimately didn't want to take a dump on my upbringing.

Did you believe but then unbelieve? Theologically, "a church" is sort of a misnomer. Technically, it is "the church", so you left a congregation, and you also left the church.

 

I can certainly understand, the desire to poo on ones upbringing, and the desire to not poo on one's upbringing. How do you feel about me and the others here that "pooed"?

[midniterider]

When I left church behind, I left behind an artificial, hypocritical, happy-clappy nightmare of guilt, shame, and despair. This was no bride of Christ, but a decrepit, diseased, whoring witch on her 200th plastic surgery. She wasn't even as noble as a real whore. A real whore takes money, but she wasn't taking money, no. Instead she's like a desperate wizened nymphomaniac adulterous, paying all her money on gigolos, and not clean ones either, but unwashed AIDS-ridden park junkies, whose members oozed from open sores.

 

It was very hard for me when I first heard the gospel. The gospel was so counter to what I'd learned in church for decades, I felt like I couldn't even comprehend it. I was so angry.

 

What is the gospel?

 

Instead of trying a new derivative of the original poison, why not stop drinking the poison altogether?

[barnacleben]

Agreed. I gave Ben what he perceives as the "right" answer. But to me the gospel is bad news. It goes something like this, "Some bearded, effeminate European guy showed up 2000 years ago, said some things, started a religion, and got attached to a stick. If you don't convert to this person's European religion, there is a place called hell where you will go when you die to be tormented by God for all eternity."

 

That's not good news. It's the worst news ever. I thank God daily that Jesus is a false god and a liar.

 

If Jesus was a liar, then you believe he existed, and if you believe he existed, then why would you believe he was effeminate and european? Christianity is not a European religion but a Hebrew religion for all nations. It is catholic, and not regionally limited. It's initial prominance was not in Europe, but in the Middle East and North Africa. From the Titus' sacking of Jerusalem in 70AD Until the Islamic conquest of North Africa in 700, Alexandria was the preeminant center of Christian thought. Originally, all Gentile converts turned their back on the religions of their upbringing, including those in India.

[barnacleben]

Ben, in the version of the faith you ascribe to, how is salvation attained?

Scripture teaches that salvation is attained by Christ, it is a work done for you. Not a work that you do. That is why I can praise God that Jeffrey Dahmer is my brother in Christ and I can look forward to meeting him in the new creation when Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead.

[barnacleben]

 

 

In terms of the scriptures, these were validated by Jesus, who proved his authority to do so by raising himself from the dead. The new testament in particular is brought to us from Jesus, recollected through the Paraclete and written by the apostles, men personally commissioned by God in the flesh to speak his word.

 

 

You believe what is not true.  There is no evidence to support your belief.  There is strong evidence that your belief is false.  Thus you have deluded yourself.

 

What evidence do you have that Jesus did not raise himself from the dead?

[LifeCycle]

 

Ben, in the version of the faith you ascribe to, how is salvation attained?

Scripture teaches that salvation is attained by Christ, it is a work done for you. Not a work that you do. That is why I can praise God that Jeffrey Dahmer is my brother in Christ and I can look forward to meeting him in the new creation when Jesus returns to judge the living and the dead.

 

Then you believe in Christian Universalism?  Everyone is saved and there is nothing we must do to save ourselves.

[barnacleben]

barnacleben,

 

Are you a Christian or a Xian?

These are the same thing. "Χ", the Greek letter chi (kee or kai) has long been a symbol for Christ since it is the first letter of Χριστός (Christos). It is an even shorter form of the Chi-rho (Here is an example from 4th Century Algeria). The "ρ" is the Greek letter rho, which is the second letter in Christ. When you see Xmas or Xian, the chi is an abbreviation for Christ.

[barnacleben]

It's all fairy tale mythology to me.

That position isn't very nuanced. Is all of of history fairy tale mythology? Was WWII a fairy tale, was Genghis Khan a fairy tale? Was Mohammed a fairy tale? Was Julius Caesar a fairy tale? Was Herod a fairy tale? Was John the Baptist a fairy tale? How do you differentiate between history and fairy stories?

[florduh]

Jeffrey Dahmer is my brother in Christ and I can look forward to meeting him in the new creation

 

Tour trolling motor is on full speed now.

 

 

What evidence do you have that Jesus did not raise himself from the dead?

 

 

I don't need evidence to refute a ridiculous claim. YOU need evidence to demonstrate it's true. You don't have any, nobody does. It's a fucking story, not factual history. What evidence do YOU have that invisible fairies don't inhabit the forest? Sheesh.

[barnacleben]

Unfortunately for Christianity, we see where it got the reformers- Lutheran or otherwise.

 

We still have a divided Christianity with not just a few denominations as in the days of the reformation, but hundreds or thousands. 

I agree that the disunity in the church is tragic. But scripture teaches that it is false doctrine which causes division. However not all denominating marks division. Protestant organizations simply lack centralized authority. Within Rome there are hundreds of orders, sects, and societies. These naming (or noming) are denominations. There are Romish priests that faithfully proclaim God's word and priests who don't, as there are amidst most of these names. However, under Rome there is unity of organizational governance. This unity of organizational governance is not true Christian unity. True Christian unity is the catholic(universal) church, the body of Christ, all those living and dead who are in Christ.

 

I would rephrase that statement to read" "truly sought to confess what THEY THOUGHT scripture teaches"  Roman Catholics would surely disagree about the primacy of scripture at the expense of tradition.

 

Papists would not disagree. For example, no Romish Archbishop would ever dispute that scripture teaches that priests/bishops should be the husband of one wife. However, Rome believes that the Pope is an apostle who has authority to introduce novel doctrines which has more authority than the Apostles who ate breakfast with God-risen-from-the-dead and delivered his words as the faith once for all delivered to the saints..

 

The fact is, the scriptures are open to everyone's interpretation, unless you have a central authority to interpret it for you.  If you have a priesthood of believers, then you have no need for priests, in fact, no need for authorities of any kind, including pastors.

 

I agree that it IS the church's job to preach and teach scripture, which includes translating it. But the problem is not that scripture is opaque and difficult to understand, the problem is that people don't like what it says, so they seek to obfuscate its clear meaning in their interpretive work. If there are places in scripture where the meaning is genuinely unclear, then we don't have the authority to choose our own meaning.

 

In addition, no one's understanding of scripture comes in a vacuum. We not only have the writings of the apostles, but we have the writings of their disciples, and many subsequent generations. When a novel doctrine is introduced, we can trace its origin. For example, when Iconoclasm was first introduced in the 8th century, it came from Islam. There is a documentary paper trail.

 

Why the hell even go to church then? 

 

The reason to go to church is to receive Christ in the word and sacraments, including the absolution of sins through the office instituted by Jesus.

[Ralet]

 

It's all fairy tale mythology to me.

That position isn't very nuanced. Is all of of history fairy tale mythology? Was WWII a fairy tale, was Genghis Khan a fairy tale? Was Mohammed a fairy tale? Was Julius Caesar a fairy tale? Was Herod a fairy tale? Was John the Baptist a fairy tale? How do you differentiate between history and fairy stories?

 

By facts, independent sources, and credibility and a comparing the claim to the reality i am experiencing. Christianity is missing most of it. There might have been a historical Jesus that had his followers but I doubt that he could walk on water and cast out demons. Why? Same reason I doubt that there are fairies, giants, Zeus, Anubis, ...  Just because some people claimed to have seen one of these things and wrote about it and people believed it, doesn't mean it is true. Extraordinary claims require proofs.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

In terms of the scriptures, these were validated by Jesus, who proved his authority to do so by raising himself from the dead. The new testament in particular is brought to us from Jesus, recollected through the Paraclete and written by the apostles, men personally commissioned by God in the flesh to speak his word.

 

 

You believe what is not true.  There is no evidence to support your belief.  There is strong evidence that your belief is false.  Thus you have deluded yourself.

 

What evidence do you have that Jesus did not raise himself from the dead?

 

 

 

All available evidence indicates this is not possible.  People just don't do that.  The closest thing is how medical technology can bring somebody back if the conditions are right.

 

There is no evidence that there ever was any Jesus of Nazareth.  The archeology indicates that Jesus of Nazareth is a made up figure.  The same is true for Jesus Christ - a made up figure.  Neither ever lived.

 

We can go back through the texts and see where the story grew and was changed.  How it was altered over time.  It's a lot like the King Author legend.  It grew over time.  As the centuries went by new authors would take the story and retell it with a new spin.

 

It's quite clear that the whole thing is fiction.

[barnacleben]

 

In terms of the scriptures, these were validated by Jesus, who proved his authority to do so by raising himself from the dead.

 

There is no evidence to support the validity this story.

 

None? That is a bold claim. This is not an area where scholarship is absent. Are you sure you're not dismissive of the evidence because you don't believe people raise themselves from the dead? That seems a safer position.

 

I've read elaborate scenarios by serious scholars to find alternative explanations for the evidence, but I haven't heard one versed in the subject claim that there's no evidence.

 

In fact, I can go over to my bookshelf and pick up a collection of translated Greek manuscripts claiming to contain eyewitness accounts of the risen Christ. While it is certainly your prerogative to believe that the evidence lacks persuasiveness, I find it hard to believe that you hold to the position that there is no evidence.

[mymistake]

 

 

In terms of the scriptures, these were validated by Jesus, who proved his authority to do so by raising himself from the dead.

 

There is no evidence to support the validity this story.

 

None? That is a bold claim. This is not an area where scholarship is absent. Are you sure you're not dismissive of the evidence because you don't believe people raise themselves from the dead? That seems a safer position.

 

 

What evidence?  If you can't provide any then there is nothing to dismiss!  Show us the evidence.   And save yourself the effort if all you can do is quote Bible verses then stop right now.  Bible verses are not evidence.  The Bible is a set of claims - claims that need evidence before they should be believed.

 

 

 

 

I've read elaborate scenarios by serious scholars to find alternative explanations for the evidence, but I haven't heard one versed in the subject claim that there's no evidence.

 

In fact, I can go over to my bookshelf and pick up a collection of translated Greek manuscripts claiming to contain eyewitness accounts of the risen Christ. While it is certainly your prerogative to believe that the evidence lacks persuasiveness, I find it hard to believe that you hold to the position that there is no evidence.

 

And I can find books about Harry Potter.  Are those books evidence that magic is real?

[Ralet]

A few self-proclaimed eye-witnesses from 2000 years ago are no evidence. There are probably more people that claim that they have see aliens or the loch ness monster. Just because people believed the story of jesus doesn't make it true.