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Notable Christian Apologist's Daughter De-Converts


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Found this at The Friendly Atheist and had to share it. Critical thinking does it again!

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A great read. Thanks for posting!

 

The trouble always starts when people start thinking.

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A great read. Thanks for posting!

 

The trouble always starts when people start thinking.

 

Tell me about it.

 

 

The 11th commandment should have been "Thou Shalt Not Think".

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Its always horrible when the parents don't speak to their deconverted children, I'm so glad my mom never disowned me. 

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Its always horrible when the parents don't speak to their deconverted children, I'm so glad my mom never disowned me. 

 

It appears that she chose to stop speaking to her father when she left home, before she deconverted.  It's still sad.

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That was a painful read. I broke ties with my parents for very long stretches in my 20s and 30s for similar reasons. (Mom was an overbearing control freak always worried about what the people at church would think of every little thing. Dad was an emotionally-unavailable perfectionist who ignored the 99 amazing things I got right and always focused on the 1 thing I got wrong.) I don't need their kind of mindfuck any more. Besides, they divorced when I was 19, and openly still hate each other's guts now over 20 years later (as they pretty much did my entire childhood -- hoping we kids would not notice). Not a healthy place for me!

 

I've noticed a trend -- the best ex-christians are the ones who knew/know Christianity the best. Funny how that happens.

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She's actually a member of this forum.  She posted about this in early 2011.  I wonder if she ever dips back in.  http://www.ex-christian.net/user/7999-stickwitch/

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Eugene39 remembered her, and HymenaeusAlexander located her handle.  

If you're listening, we wish you well, Rachael!

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A great read. Thanks for posting!

 

The trouble always starts when people start thinking.

 

Tell me about it.

 

 

The 11th commandment should have been "Thou Shalt Not Think".

 

 

Preach it. That IS the truth. 

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Not speaking to your own deconverted children is just one more example of the evil of Xtianity.  Have you ever notice that Xtians who take their faith less seriously are much nicer than those who do?  

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Not speaking to your own deconverted children is just one more example of the evil of Xtianity.  

 

It is, but she didn't say he won't speak to her. She said she hasn't spoken to him. I'm sure she has her reasons and I'm sure they are legit, but there's no reason to assume that he's one who cut off communication based on what she said.

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From her first thread:

"I haven't talked to my Dad in over a year, save for one brief meeting in which I told him I didn't want to see him again. *I* left *him,* as my opinions about his personal virtue are quite low. 

I'm close with the rest of my family, and I visit them on occasion when my Dad's gone (though I live 300 miles away). They don't approve of my decision to leave Christianity, but they're not shunning me, either. Things would be very different if I still lived under their roof, though, so thank goodness I don't."

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Good for her for following what she knows instead of what she wants to believe. This says a lot about her character

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That was a great read, and very encouraging to me!  I only THOUGHT I live in a strict religious family!  I'm so grateful that mine wasn't nearly as hardcore as this one!  I admire her strength to rise up and find her happiness and freedom from that dark void xianity leaves.  Just awesome. 

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Cool read!

 

What a brave young lady, and I admire her for making such a difficult decision. I bet deep down, her father knows that his belief system is a total sham, but is too entrenched to get out- not to mention that his faith is his source of income and livelihood.

 

Have a great day everyone!

 

 

-DAZE

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I like this response http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2013/07/17/tricks-and-truth-play-at-debate-but-avoid-the-shut-eye/

 

It's also vaguely relevant to the other thread about why there aren't more women atheists in highly public debates, becuase this is a lot of why I find debating to often be a waste of time. And relevant to why christians are so shocked and confused when we won't buy into their apologetics games. And relevant how I stayed in christianity for a while, thinking that if the same old cliches worked on everyone around me then I must be missing something when I found them unconvincing.

 

 

 

“Debate” is a parlor trick.

....

And that’s the problem with debate. It invites the audience — and even more so the performers themselves — to regard it as something more than simply the skillful execution of tricks. The audience is asked to believe that this prestidigitation is meaningful, that it reveals truth. And, even worse, it asks the performers themselves to believe that.

...

That’s not what debate is about. Debate is about winning. That’s why they keep score — why there’s such a thing as debate teams who compete against other teams. They compete for trophies and titles, not for truth.

...

What’s striking to me in both testimonies is the way in which trickery and truth are confused by so many fundamentalist parents. They come to confuse winning with meaning, and convince themselves to believe that their manipulation really is magic.

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I am not sure I agree with that response. The author seems to be indicating that formal debate is ultimately about showmanship and can lead people into believing falsities when presented by a crafty debater. While I am sure that that is a risk, I think formal debate is ultimately an exercise in analysis of ideas. Any good debater will fare better when they use facts to back up their points. Often times, topics are chosen that are controversial because there are facts that could support either position, but this is necessary and helpful to thoroughly analyze the topic. I have never seen a debate where the audience was encouraged in any way to adopt the position of the victor, but rather they are encouraged to think for themselves using the information and arguments presented by both sides. I cannot speak for others, but I know that I have never thought that someone winning a debate was synonymous with their position being more factually correct. It just means they presented their rationale better.

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I am not sure I agree with that response. The author seems to be indicating that formal debate is ultimately about showmanship and can lead people into believing falsities when presented by a crafty debater. While I am sure that that is a risk, I think formal debate is ultimately an exercise in analysis of ideas. Any good debater will fare better when they use facts to back up their points. Often times, topics are chosen that are controversial because there are facts that could support either position, but this is necessary and helpful to thoroughly analyze the topic. I have never seen a debate where the audience was encouraged in any way to adopt the position of the victor, but rather they are encouraged to think for themselves using the information and arguments presented by both sides. I cannot speak for others, but I know that I have never thought that someone winning a debate was synonymous with their position being more factually correct. It just means they presented their rationale better.

 

Then your experience with debates and apologetics is different than mine. Now, people talking things out, even if it gets intense, is quite useful and I do value that. But I grew up with all the most "sincere" people being the most emotional. With the idea that whoever could talk over someone else with the most passion was right. My dad loved to listen to people on the radio like that, like Limbaugh and The Bible Answer Man.

 

Sometimes christians I knew would get groups together to go see a debate (generally hosted at a college/university, often by opposing student groups) and support Our Side, like we were sports fans, absolutely convinced of the outcome before it even started. No one cared about hearing the other side, just about seeing Our Team win and hoping the audience members on the other side would be convinced of the truth of our side.

 

I was encouraged to learn apologetics. To read books full of fancy logic about why everyone else is wrong. It worked great - until the first time I met one of those "everone else"s as a real live human being instead of an idea to attack. Once I had the brilliant idea that I'd be even better at the whole debate/apologetics thing if I read books written by people who are wrong so that I could practice tearing their ideas apart. My parents were very nervous about this and thought it was a bad idea, and that I should go back to reading books from our side about while other people are always wrong.

 

I'm sure there's good debates out there somewhere. I may have actually engaged in discussions that could count as healthy debates. But the sort of official debating style I was raised with was not like that. In a honestly good debate, you might find out you were wrong and the other person has better support for their point of view. I wasn't raised with that idea; debates were all about "winning people for christ". (I guess we were allowed to have good debates over non-essential points of doctrine.)

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Glad she's out of the cult.  Much that is sad about this story.

 

The saddest thing is her father to me in many ways reminds me of Hitler and I would have stabbed my finger through his eye if I had ever met that pos.

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That was an outstanding testimony. Thanks for posting the link!

 

It's always encouraging to see those who grew up brainwashed and in militant fundamentalist circumstances break free. Though it is a painful and very jarring process, escaping the falsehoods, the mind control, the fear of hell and the rigid and backwards constraints of theology is incredibly liberating.

 

I applaud Rachael for her bravery, her sincerity and her intellectual honesty.

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