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Well personally I wouldn't mind  if he actually responded to direct questions instead he just spouts off some assertion/Christian verse and ignores any challenge to his beliefs. I find it more entertaining to watch his thread get locked and watch him squeal with stuff like post #10 lol.

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Can I start quoting Lord of the Rings to start proving it now?

I would like you to respond to HA, in your own words: "Hi Ben,   I’m usually hesitant to engage in a thread that’s already 10 pages long, especially when one individual is having to respond to near

You've got to be kidding, Ben!  Did you not develop empathy at some point during your upbringing?  If not, I'll explain it to you:   Empathy is a mental state wherein one can imagine what another be

 

Can I start quoting Lord of the Rings to start proving it now?

since it parallels the bible.....why not.

 

 

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/39815358.jpg

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Can I start quoting Lord of the Rings to start proving it now?

since it parallels the bible.....why not.

 

 

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/39815358.jpg

 

 

Tolkien was friends with Lewis.   So duh.... ;)

 

 

Seriously though,  LOTR does follow a very broad quest archetype.  Which is also seen in many places in the bible.  Much of the back story about Sauron is similar to the fall of lucifer. Then for good measure Tolkien throws in a large helping of the Kalevala.  This is actually one of the criticisms that Tolkien had of Lewis's Narnia. 

 

Tolkien spent a very long time working out the mythology of Middle Earth.  He formed every backstory.  So that when you are in the story, you get the feeling that this is a very old place.  Lewis didn't do that with Narnia.  It showed.  Lewis wrote several book and completed the entire Narnia series.  Tolkien wrote three completed stories and a book of unfinished tales. Personally I always prefered Tolkien.  I found Lewis unreadable. 

 

Sometimes I think it's true that there are no new stories. Just old ones recombined.  

 

I am sure some English teacher is going to make a literary comparison between LOTR and Harry Potter one day if it hasn't been done already. 

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Can I start quoting Lord of the Rings to start proving it now?

since it parallels the bible.....why not.

 

 

http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/39815358.jpg

 

 

Tolkien was friends with Lewis.   So duh.... wink.png

 

 

Seriously though,  LOTR does follow a very broad quest archetype.  Which is also seen in many places in the bible.  Much of the back story about Sauron is similar to the fall of lucifer. Then for good measure Tolkien throws in a large helping of the Kalevala.  This is actually one of the criticisms that Tolkien had of Lewis's Narnia. 

 

Tolkien spent a very long time working out the mythology of Middle Earth.  He formed every backstory.  So that when you are in the story, you get the feeling that this is a very old place.  Lewis didn't do that with Narnia.  It showed.  Lewis wrote several book and completed the entire Narnia series.  Tolkien wrote three completed stories and a book of unfinished tales. Personally I always prefered Tolkien.  I found Lewis unreadable. 

 

Sometimes I think it's true that there are no new stories. Just old ones recombined.  

 

I am sure some English teacher is going to make a literary comparison between LOTR and Harry Potter one day if it hasn't been done already. 

 

 

Lewis was just a slacker. :-) I never read Narnia. Only made it part way through The Fellowship of the Ring. So I probably could not comment either way. Sci Fi grabbed me for a few years so never finished LOTR. Even though I'm a fantasy mmo gamer I had a hard time reading fantasy.

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It took me a year to read LOTR! They're not walking down a road before we find out whose great grandfather mined the stone for the cobbles during the 4th war of someone's reign *_*

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However, I’m butting in here because I want to try to help you understand some things that you may not be aware of.

 

I’m aware of many arguments, none of which are damning to the claims of the resurrection.

 

 

You have assumed a sizable burden of proof here and yet you keep trying to shift that burden to your detractors in this thread.

 

If you are looking for proof, there is none. God’s word makes it clear that no one is persuaded to believe through their own reason. It is possible for anyone to hypothesize an alternative to the evidence. Even a simple “I choose to believe there is some other explanation” is sufficient rational grounds to deny the resurrection.

 

Scripture teaches that belief comes in the mystery of hearing the word through the operation of the Holy Spirit, and that unbelief comes through our nature, sin, and false teaching which turn us away from hope in Christ and toward the self-righteous justification of our sinful desires.

 

Even so, you seem surprisingly aloof to what a huge piece of evidence the texts are. It is not an attitude I've encounterrd much of in recent critical scholarship. If you go back hundreds of years, you will find many bold claims about the lack of historicity in the new testament texts, but most of those claims have fallen in the piecemeal discovery of corroborating evidence over the centuries.

 

 

First, you really need some sources to corroborate the New Testament...

 

The text is continually corroborated, and constantly validated to be free from anachronism. Just a few years ago, higher critics were insisting Pontius Pilate was a mythical invention of the Christians. Now they are insisting the Christians got his title wrong? How much corroboration is needed? I will tell you.

Since you are an unbeliever, there will never be enough for you to trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins.

 

But there is enough that scholars, including unbelieving ones, accept much of the general historicity of the accounts.

 

These are all things that people all over that region should have taken note of, and yet non-Christian sources like Josephus find the lives of John the Baptist and some Egyptian who led a failed revolt more noteworthy than Jesus Christ?

Yet still he notes Jesus Christ, clearly there is some corruption by interpolation, but uninterpolated copies still contain a reference. The Christians in Jerusalem were a rag-tag band living in communal poverty. In contrast, that Egyptian's failed revolt brought armies of Rome against Judea, which was and important political event.

 

Now I realize that absence of evidence is not always evidence of absence

I’m not a scholar of ancient texts, and I’m guessing you aren’t either. I see little value to us continually posting our lack of expertise at one another.

I respect your concerns with the text and external corroboration, and I agree that they appear damning on their face. When I was in the process of becoming a Christian a little over ten years ago, these same issues were show-stoppers for me.

However, you should also consider that many of these arguments do not hold up well under deep scrutiny. That is why there are non-Christian Biblical scholars who do not put forth these arguments.

At one point I was searching for anything that could convince me that it wasn’t true. I was not even a Christian believer at that point, and I just needed a good reason to write off Jesus for good. However, the strangest thing happened. Whenever I found an anti-Christian argument that had me completely persuaded, I also made sure to deeply examine the rebuttals to the arguments and translations of the source material when I could get it. What was so strange to me was that I investigated these claims, often most persuasive anti-Christian arguments ended up persuading me the most the texts authenticity.

 

[Jesus] was indeed a failed prophet regardless of whether or not the resurrection occurred

I find this response fascinating, if and when I have time and I will repost this for discussion in another thread.

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You see, if appeal to the supernatural is not to be ruled out as a possible explanation for things like the empty tomb and post-resurrection appearances, why should we discount the possibility of explaining those things with demonic deception, for example?

 

Certainly, the Jews attributed Jesus’ works to the demonic to his face. Again, it is rational to deny the resurrection based even on “There must be some other explanation.” If you want to propose alternatives like demons or even that Jesus was an alien robot, I’ve no doubt you will be able to brainstorm and infinite number of alternatives to justify your unbelief.

But Jesus is the truth and the truth remains. You and I will crumble to dust in a few more heartbeats, but his word will never pass away:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. (Jn10)

 

 

 

Think of the Millerites after the Great Disappointment. Did they all just throw their hands up in the air and go back to their former lives? No. Many maintained their beliefs, modified them and increased their zeal.

 

This analogy exposes what makes the accounts so credible. If the apostles had suffered lives of persecution, torture, hardship, celibacy, and dying far away from home without wealth or power for a vision someone else had, then that would be understandable. People will die for something they believe in that they haven’t seen. I myself pray that I will have the endurance to endure brutal torture, hardship, and execution for Jesus’ name, despite the fact that my eyes have never seen the risen Christ.

But these men apostled by Jesus would need to endure such things knowing for certain that they were proclaiming lies, and not helpful lies either, but lies which served no other end than causing misery to those who believed them.

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. (1Cor15)

 

Additionally, the notion of a dying and rising son of the gods was easily borrowed from the influential Hellenistic culture where such mythic motifs are numerous.

 

The idea of bodily resurrection of the dead was revolting to Hellenistic culture, where death meant liberation from the taint and corruption of flesh. The Greeks considered the idea of a corpse rising from the dead repellent on many levels. They hated the idea so much that early gnostic sects utterly rejected the humanity of Jesus.

These sorts of arguments can seem convincing at first, particularly when you look at a summary. However if you actually go to source material, you find nothing in the gods rebirthing with the planting cycle that remotely resembles the bodily resurrection of Christ.

 

Outside of the later development of legends, we simply don’t have any evidence that any one of them died for holding to the belief that Jesus rose from the dead bodily.

 Is this a tacit admission that the new testament is historical in contrast with the legends surrounding the apostles?

 

 

They would’ve known the disciples could’ve simply said, “Yeah, that’s not him. It’s just some imposter body you’ve dressed up to look like him.

Not only was corpse desecration an unthinkable act for the Jews (including the disciples), but that engagement would likely also have been recorded in the new testament. However there’s no reference to even a lying claim about a body that somewhere existed.

 

The truth is that Jesus’ Messianic claims should have been transferred to James, who should have become the new messianic hope. This is what happened with the dozen other Messiah’s popped up in the years surrounding Jesus’ life.

 

All of this assumes that the writer of Acts is giving us reliable historical information about when the disciples started gaining the attention of the authorities.

You seem unaware that the historicity of these texts have been under attack since Schleiermacher. Hundreds of years of vetting has substantiated the accuracy of many claims in the texts which were presumed duplicitous by anti-Christians. You propose every uncorroborated detail as if it is evidence against it, which is an absurd approach to any historical text.

 

Supernatural claims in and of themselves are extraordinarily improbable.

I’d love to see your stochastic model of supernatural occurrences. Jesus’ resurrection was not an event of low probability. It was a miracle. It is a miraculous claim, not a claim of improbable happenstance.

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Claims like someone rising from the dead require extraordinary evidence

Clearly. But Jesus clearly taught that instead of receiving extraordinary evidence, we would receive his word.

 

 

the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus does not even come close to overcoming the vastly superior probability that someone is lying, mythmaking, hallucinating or exaggerating.

The probability of Jesus’ resurrection is either 0 or 1, based on whether it happened or not. There is no tiny bit likelihood for resurrection to occur apart from God accomplishing it. 

 

 

Now suppose I claimed a dragon named Smaug handed me that package before he flew away down the block.

I would just hypothetically torture you until you admitted it wasn’t true.

 

 

This is your burden. This is what you have to overcome. Good luck

 

It’s actually not my burden. I’m certainly not able to overcome unbelief. That is God’s work. Going from unbelief to repentance and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins is a miracle on par Jesus’ resurrection. My burden is to proclaim his word.

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If you think it is justice to kill and cannibalize people and then just do a sinner's prayer thing and its all better, you have a very perverted sense of justice, or should I say your God has one? 

That is precisely what I do not believe. The Bible doesn't teach about a sinner's prayer, nor does it teach anything we can do to make it better. Instead it teaches that God made it better for us on a Roman crucifix. 

 

Even if you pay back the money you stole, you are still guilty of the crime and deserve judgement. God will remunerate to each of us according to our righteousness. Fortunately, for sinners like Jeffery Dahmer and me, God has given us the righteousness of Christ.

 

 

And incidentally, you don't need to define the word "catholic" as if we are ignorant and don't know what it means.

I didn't intend offense. It is uncommon for me to encounter Christians that know what it means.

 

To you, and other protestants, there is this secret, true church that has been preserved from the beginning.  Too bad that more than likely no Christian of the medieval era and earlier would know what you meant. You can't separate your experience from the institutionalized church, because if it had not become institutionalized, you would have never heard of Jesus OR the Bible.

That's not really the Lutheran perspective. We appreciate the institutionalized church, with all her nasty warts.

 

How much trust is enough trust, and how much repentance enough repentance?

A mustard seed comes to mind.

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Ben, your god couldn't find two people in a fucking garden, and can't forgive unless you smear blood all over something.  It's far, far too stupid to make anything more complicated than a mudpie.

 

Florduh, My vote is to show this obstinate troll the door -- If he can't even follow some painfully simple moderator instructions and STFU with the Bible verses, I doubt very much that he's capable of quality dialogue with the rest of us.

I'm curious about the "Lion's Den". I posted here because the forum rules implied I would be able confess what I believe without restraint. I haven't intentionally given offense, even though that's allowed. I don't understand why my posts are controversial?

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Ben, your god couldn't find two people in a fucking garden, and can't forgive unless you smear blood all over something.  It's far, far too stupid to make anything more complicated than a mudpie.

 

Florduh, My vote is to show this obstinate troll the door -- If he can't even follow some painfully simple moderator instructions and STFU with the Bible verses, I doubt very much that he's capable of quality dialogue with the rest of us.

I'm curious about the "Lion's Den". I posted here because the forum rules implied I would be able confess what I believe without restraint. I haven't intentionally given offense, even though that's allowed. I don't understand why my posts are controversial?

 

 

So far, I have disagreed with the reason for why your original thread was closed and don't think you have broken any rules since one-side sermons are allowed in the Lion's Den. I have no interest in kicking you out or silencing you Barnacleben. I'm satisfied with just laughing in your face and kindly letting you know that when you decide to leave, to be careful to make sure the door doesn't hit you on the way out.

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Yes, Ben, we know what the word "catholic" means. We know a lot more I would wager than your average thoughless Christian.

That is precisely what I do not believe. The Bible doesn't teach about a sinner's prayer, nor does it teach anything we can do to make it better. Instead it teaches that God made it better for us on a Roman crucifix. 

 

Even if you pay back the money you stole, you are still guilty of the crime and deserve judgement. God will remunerate to each of us according to our righteousness. Fortunately, for sinners like Jeffery Dahmer and me, God has given us the righteousness of Christ.

 

 

So you are for predestination? I don't get it at all.  I am glad I don't have to understand this convoluted mess anymore.

 

I guess  you think ole Jeff will get some kind of punishment, but we have the "righteousness of Christ" whatever that means.  It is all complete baloney. Makes no sense whatsoever.

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Ben, your god couldn't find two people in a fucking garden, and can't forgive unless you smear blood all over something.  It's far, far too stupid to make anything more complicated than a mudpie.

 

Florduh, My vote is to show this obstinate troll the door -- If he can't even follow some painfully simple moderator instructions and STFU with the Bible verses, I doubt very much that he's capable of quality dialogue with the rest of us.

I'm curious about the "Lion's Den". I posted here because the forum rules implied I would be able confess what I believe without restraint. I haven't intentionally given offense, even though that's allowed. I don't understand why my posts are controversial?

 

 

What difference does it make now if the thread was locked or not? Here you are again. 

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You don't understand that quoting a book that nobody of us believes in, isnt a discussion or valid argument... but like CG says I don't understand the reason for closing the old thread.

 

Even if the bible was true, why should god make it so complicated for us to believe in it? why does he not communicated in a clear direct form? why do we have to rely on narrations by people that died thousand of years ago? why does he rely on us to spread the message? why did he only shared his word with one nation that is said to be his favorite? doesn't that make you suspicious? god could easily speak to every other nation in every other time or to each person directly.

i would believe in a bible that was written exactly the same independently on different continents and that would include some prophecies that were actually fulfilled 100 years later.

Bible-God makes no sense. He is displayed as he had to kick Adam and Eve out of Eden and had to give us Jesus to die for our sins. No, Jesus didn't have to be sacrificed and God didn't have to make mankind experience pain and death. He doesn't have to do anything. He made the rules. He made us imperfect and punishes us for that. He set Adam and Eve up to fail. And then he kills his son and blames us.

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My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. (Jn10)

 

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. (1Cor15)

 

 

 

Go Biblebot!  Go Biblebot!  Biblebot Go!!!

 

 

Ps 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

 

Exodus 22:18

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

 

1 Sam 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

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My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. (Jn10)

 

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. (1Cor15)

 

 

 

Go Biblebot!  Go Biblebot!  Biblebot Go!!!

 

 

Ps 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

 

Exodus 22:18

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

 

1 Sam 15:3

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

 

 

Wait for it...

 

"That's the Old Testament, that doesn't matter anymore!"

 

 

 

This is your burden. This is what you have to overcome. Good luck

 

It’s actually not my burden. I’m certainly not able to overcome unbelief. That is God’s work. Going from unbelief to repentance and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins is a miracle on par Jesus’ resurrection. My burden is to proclaim his word.

 

 

There you go again, assuming that Yahweh of the Bible is "God". He could be a god among many (which is precisely what the early Israelites believed) and he could be a demon and not actually the creator of anything. You're just making assumptions. You have no reason to trust that the Bible is "God's Words" or the word of any god at all, even if it is the word of one god among many. You just want it to be "God's Word" so you believe that it is.

 

If overcoming unbelief is something that only your god can do, then does that mean he is planning to send every former Christian on this site to Hell? Did he purposefully allow us to be convinced that Christianity was nonsense and then just not restore our belief again? Does your god want us in Hell or something? Has he decided from the very moment that we were born that our time as Christians would be temporary and that we would just go to Hell after we died?

 

It wouldn't matter if Jesus really did die and come back to life. You have no reason to think that he was sent by a god. When Yahweh of the Bible clearly thinks that it's okay to own other humans as property and that it's okay to beat your slaves as much as you want for their disobedience, just as long as they don't die in a couple of days, then what makes you so sure that he wasn't a demon? What if your god is Satan and you just don't know it?

 

How do you know that every person who has placed their trust in Christ hasn't been deceived by some evil entity posing as a god, telling people what they want to hear? How do you know that when you die, you'll get to live in paradise? Yahweh, Satan, Jesus, or whoever the hell it is, could be planning to devour your soul the moment you die and you would not know it.

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Biblebot can New Testy Mint!

 

 

Revelations 2:23a

And I will kill her children with death;

 

 

Hebrews 10:28-29

 

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:   Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

 

Matthew 15:4

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

 

 

Acts 5:9-10

 

Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

 

 

Matthew 19:29

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

 

 

Hebrews 11:28

Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

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I don't understand why my posts are controversial?

 

Not controversial so much as useless. You believe the unbelievable with no evidence and expect others to do the same. That's typical for a Christian. You, however, have been simply reprinting the entire Bible here in lieu of having a debate or conversation. If all you have to say is that you have faith for no reason other than you wish to, and we don't share that faith, then you've said all you can say. We don't need to see Bible verses, we'd like your own thoughts. If you have evidence of a resurrection other than the fact that the story is printed in your book, we'd like to see it. Also, the only reason I closed the other thread was because of your challenge after I asked you to say something other than Bible quotes, and you immediately replied with more Scripture.

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obviously poorly educated

by worldly standards I am well educated, although I would agree with you that my education was poor

 

has NO idea what an EX-christian is.

But I do, I have been an ex-Christian

 

Here's a clue... we are the people who did the SEEKING the bible asked for.. true, deep and thorough. It's bunk. Now, in many cases at the expense of losing friends and family... often painfully... we are here because we can no longer believe that which is unbelievable and unsupported - we value the TRUTH above all, at varying costs. It isn't EASY to walk away from a worldview and a secure social venue, ya know.  idjit.

When I gave up on Christianity it was because I lost hope over my sin. I never had a secure social venue.

 

Now get with the program if you wish to remain here... and show some intelligent, original thought (and maybe some research) rather than regurgitation of verse.

I don't believe in "the" program. I don't believe that my own novel ideas matter. If you want research, there are dozens of websites and youtube channels "regurgitating" the experts, I'm sure you could find them if you're interested. Not being an expert Bible critic myself, why would my musings about other people's research be so fascinating?

 

I can't persuade you to trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins with any amount of reposted research.

 

we are NOT convinced by a book which claims to validate itself. It's called CIRCULAR REASONING, and a 5th grader could do better.

That would be true if it were one work. Instead, however, it is a library of works from different authors which have been collected into a single volume.

 

and the Catholic Church is an EVIL and immoral institution... and I DO have the evidence for that. almost 2000 years of it.

As are all institutions governed by sinful men.

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Jesus walks into a hotel lobby, hands the deskclerk three nails, and says "can you put me up for the night?"

 

What's the difference between jesus and a picture of jesus?

It only takes one nail to hang the picture.

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So, god did't give evidence because people can always find a way to get around evidence. WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE THE CASE FOR JESUS CAN'T BE WRIGGLED OUT OF? IT'S MUCH LESS VULNERABLE TO CRITICISM? 

 

BUT IF YOU READ THE BIBLE THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL SET YOU STRAIGHT? EVEN THOUGH THAT IS ABSURD, LET'S ASSUME THAT IT'S TRUE. WHAT MAKES ONE READ THE BIBLE IN THE FIST PLACE? WHY NOT THE KORAN? MOST PEOPLE IN ARAB COUNTRIES, FOR EXAMPLE, WOULD NOT EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO A BIBLE. THEY BURN FOR ETERNITY? DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT BYPASS THE BIBLE IN ARAB COUNTRIES AND TOUCH ARABS' HEARTS DIRECTLY WITHOUT THE BIBLE? THEN WHY DO WE NEED THE BIBLE IF THE ARABS DON'T? WHY CAN'T THE HOLY SPIRIT TAKE CARE OF US IN THE SAME WAY IT DOES IN ARAB COUNTRIES?

 

IF WE MUST READ THE BIBLE, WHAT PART DO WE READ? THE PART WHERE LITTLE CHILDREN ARE TO BE BEAT UPON THE ROCKS? THE PART WHERE ELISHA ASKS GOD TO SEND THE SHE BEARS TO KILL THE CHILDREN AND GOD DOES JUST THAT? THE PART WHERE GOD TELLS FATHERS TO KILL RECALCITRANT CHILDREN? OR THE NUMEROUS OTHER PARTS OF THE BIBLE DISPLAYING GOD'S UNBELIEVABLE CRUELTY?   bill

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Hey Ben you say you have been an Ex-Christian.  Ever show up here under some other name?  Just curious.

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I really want you to explain to me why all humans who live or ever lived deserve to be burned forever in hell? Do you have an answer

to that which makes walking around sense? I gave you some examples: Helen Keller? People who live their whole life with horrible,

painful diseases? The list could go on and on. What kind of Deity would create humans knowing he would do that to his creatures?

I have yet to have any Xtian explain that in any sensible way.   bill

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has NO idea what an EX-christian is.

But I do, I have been an ex-Christian

 

Now you are starting to say something interesting.  Bravo!  I do wish you would tell us more about your time as an ex-Christian and why you choose to return to Christianity.

 

 

Here's a clue... we are the people who did the SEEKING the bible asked for.. true, deep and thorough. It's bunk. Now, in many cases at the expense of losing friends and family... often painfully... we are here because we can no longer believe that which is unbelievable and unsupported - we value the TRUTH above all, at varying costs. It isn't EASY to walk away from a worldview and a secure social venue, ya know.  idjit.

When I gave up on Christianity it was because I lost hope over my sin. I never had a secure social venue.

 

So you still believed in sin even when you were no longer Christian?  Did you join some other religion?

 

 

 

Now get with the program if you wish to remain here... and show some intelligent, original thought (and maybe some research) rather than regurgitation of verse.

I don't believe in "the" program. I don't believe that my own novel ideas matter.

 

They do to us.

 

 

 

we are NOT convinced by a book which claims to validate itself. It's called CIRCULAR REASONING, and a 5th grader could do better.

That would be true if it were one work. Instead, however, it is a library of works from different authors which have been collected into a single volume.

 

Having multiple authors does not cancel the circular reasoning problem.  For example the many Star Wars novels that have been published do not make the Star Wars saga into a series of real events.  They have had many authors but they are all still fiction.

 

 

 

and the Catholic Church is an EVIL and immoral institution... and I DO have the evidence for that. almost 2000 years of it.

As are all institutions governed by sinful men.

 

But the Bible was written by the same kind of men.  Why do you give the Bible a pass? 

 

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count up to activate the  bible bot regurgitation

 

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