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Deconversion Impossible?


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http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2013/06/why-i-cant-conceive-of-de-conversion.html

 

 

This article I found in a search this morning.

 

 

See I posted on that wonderfully accommodating and intelligent forum of facebook,  the article about our on Stickwitch that the friendly atheist did.  A very fundy friend of mine responded. 

 

She said in her last post last night,  she stated that the concept of deconversion is absurd. Mainly because she stated there is no such word.  She then stated that Stickwitch converted to atheism. 

 

So I did a web search.  

 

sure enough

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conversion

 

: an experience associated with the definite and decisive adoption of a religion

 

So in a sense she could be right.   However, religion is defined as. 
 

Definition of RELIGION
1
a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year ofreligion>
 
(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
 
 
 
There are two problem.   1)  Definition 2 is using a form of the word to define the word which I thought was a no-no.  2)  None of that describes atheism. 
 
The blog post that I found. 
 
 

 

I’ll put it simply. Christianity is a transplant of the eyes and of the heart, by which we see the world differently by becoming incredibly different. I can no more take back Christianity than a man can take back his heart transplant. Christianity is an essential, permanent change to the disposition of the human person. It places an indelible mark on the soul and binds his very life to another. To undo Christianity and to commit suicide are synonyms. So what, is de-conversion impossible? In a word, yes.

 

I cannot go back to living as a happy pagan. To not be a Christian is to be waiting for your bridegroom. But once the marriage has been consummated, and I am made Christian, the rejection Christ is an embrace of absurdity. To reject Christ can never be a leaving — for marriage is eternal — it can only be an adultery, and adultery brings no peace. It only tears in two. Thus, when I truly consider leaving Christianity, I realize that such an action could only be defined as a negative — a neglect of what is truly real and existing within my person.

 

Poetic language aside,  this describes the situation very well. 

 

My fundy friend often posts on her facebook wall that we must trust god.  We may not have the answers but we must trust the one that does.  We must have faith. 

 

Definition of FAITH
1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty
 
(1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
 
(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction;especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestantfaith>
 
This is the problem.  Definition 2b  Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.  If we have questions, then we should just have faith in the one who has the answers.  Who will never talk to you.  Will never teach you.  Will never help you find the answers.
 
Because they believe and have faith, they cannot conceive of the idea that anyone would leave religion.   Thus Stickwitch just converted to atheism.  
 
The subject though remains. Deconvert doesn't exist in any dictionary as a word. It is a new term.  So in a very technical sense she and the blogger are correct.  It is impossible to decovert because the word itself is meaningless or doesn't exist. 
 
Given time though......it will.
 

 

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Yeah I don't agree with her on a technical sense either as we are free to create our own words to describe a concept being discussed.  For example I googled you meaning I used a search engine to look up something about you. Before this was accepted into a dictionary it still correctly identified the concept being discussed. Hence when we say deconvert even though it is not in a dictionary we are still correctly identifying a concept in which we are reversing to a state before conversion. Converting to atheism is incorrectly describing the process as we are not converting to a specific adherence of principles. Deconversion does not mean you are converting to anything specific Bhim for example deconverted to a previous state before his conversion to Christianity  which was the religion of his ancestors. He didn't convert to it as this  was a previously held position. The reason it is not in a dictionary is because in the English language which for the most part has been dominated by Christianity simply does not have a word to correctly identify the concept being discussed. This is how words are created when presented with a new concept that does not correctly have a term to describe a concept a new word is required. For example I microwaved my food today. I cant say I cooked my food in a fire burning oven. We created the word microwave to describe an observable frequency of a wave. If you explained this to someone from the 1600s they could not say its impossible to microwave something because its not a word.

 

To sum it up she is technically wrong because she is misusing convert to describe a process that occurs. Our language allows for new words to be created to describe concepts which have not been identified yet.

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"I’ll put it simply. Christianity is a transplant of the eyes and of the heart, by which we see the world differently by becoming incredibly different. I can no more take back Christianity than a man can take back his heart transplant. Christianity is an essential, permanent change to the disposition of the human person. It places an indelible mark on the soul and binds his very life to another. To undo Christianity and to commit suicide are synonyms. So what, is de-conversion impossible? In a word, yes.

 

I cannot go back to living as a happy pagan. To not be a Christian is to be waiting for your bridegroom. But once the marriage has been consummated, and I am made Christian, the rejection Christ is an embrace of absurdity. To reject Christ can never be a leaving — for marriage is eternal — it can only be an adultery, and adultery brings no peace. It only tears in two. Thus, when I truly consider leaving Christianity, I realize that such an action could only be defined as a negative — a neglect of what is truly real and existing within my person."

 

there are many problems with this statement the most obvious  of which is Christianity is a permanent change. While I cannot prove a negative with the rest of the statement it is pretty obvious to disprove this statement. As I am sitting here typing as evidence of it /facepalm. Just really this whole quote is full of fail lol my eyes are bleeding from the obviously poor assertions made.

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Deconversion is a reversal of a conversion. Not a hard concept to grasp. All of the rest of her comments about the invisible things that happen are simply part of the religion and don't actually happen for anyone. They have just convinced themselves and each other that it's all real, and then use analogies like marriage to make it seem more personal and intimate when all along it is entirely imaginary. We simply recognized that and stopped pretending.

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http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2013/06/why-i-cant-conceive-of-de-conversion.html

 

 

This article I found in a search this morning.

 

 

See I posted on that wonderfully accommodating and intelligent forum of facebook, the article about our on Stickwitch that the friendly atheist did. A very fundy friend of mine responded.

 

She said in her last post last night, she stated that the concept of deconversion is absurd. Mainly because she stated there is no such word. She then stated that Stickwitch converted to atheism.

 

So I did a web search.

 

sure enough

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conversion

 

: an experience associated with the definite and decisive adoption of a religion

 

So in a sense she could be right. However, religion is defined as.

Definition of RELIGION

1

a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year ofreligion>

b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2

: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

3

archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness

4

: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

 

 

There are two problem. 1) Definition 2 is using a form of the word to define the word which I thought was a no-no. 2) None of that describes atheism.

 

The blog post that I found.

 

 

 

I’ll put it simply. Christianity is a transplant of the eyes and of the heart, by which we see the world differently by becoming incredibly different. I can no more take back Christianity than a man can take back his heart transplant. Christianity is an essential, permanent change to the disposition of the human person. It places an indelible mark on the soul and binds his very life to another. To undo Christianity and to commit suicide are synonyms. So what, is de-conversion impossible? In a word, yes.

I cannot go back to living as a happy pagan. To not be a Christian is to be waiting for your bridegroom. But once the marriage has been consummated, and I am made Christian, the rejection Christ is an embrace of absurdity. To reject Christ can never be a leaving — for marriage is eternal — it can only be an adultery, and adultery brings no peace. It only tears in two. Thus, when I truly consider leaving Christianity, I realize that such an action could only be defined as a negative — a neglect of what is truly real and existing within my person.

Poetic language aside, this describes the situation very well.

 

My fundy friend often posts on her facebook wall that we must trust god. We may not have the answers but we must trust the one that does. We must have faith.

Definition of FAITH

1

a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty

b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2

a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

3

: something that is believed especially with strong conviction;especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestantfaith>

This is the problem. Definition 2b Firm belief in something for which there is no proof. If we have questions, then we should just have faith in the one who has the answers. Who will never talk to you. Will never teach you. Will never help you find the answers.

 

Because they believe and have faith, they cannot conceive of the idea that anyone would leave religion. Thus Stickwitch just converted to atheism.

 

The subject though remains. Deconvert doesn't exist in any dictionary as a word. It is a new term. So in a very technical sense she and the blogger are correct. It is impossible to decovert because the word itself is meaningless or doesn't exist.

 

Given time though......it will.

How fucking wonderfully twisted is the fundy logic, this makes me more sick I ever got caught up in the christian cult.
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fundy logic is something not to be under stood the dain bramage is to much.

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First, what gives her the right to define for everyone else what Christianity is?

Maybe I define it as a form of mental illness...

in which case people can overcome delusion..maybe it is just mistaken belief..like some people reject darwinism after awhile...or string theory based on the evidence..maybe the evidence doesnt support a belief Jesus was God..there certianly is a lack of such evidence..

 

Her contention that after conversion people become markedly kinder and more loving is absurd on the face of it..

 

She seems like a nut

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I could never ponder the concept of deconversion because it sounds way too complicated. A forced Catholic education made me terrible at math.

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While I think her entire line of reasoning is complete bull, I can actually understand what she means in a way, There was a time, when I used to be a Christian, that I felt I had no choice in the matter of my belief. Even though I hated it, I refused to consider the possibility of not being a Christian. I 'knew' that Christianity was true in the same way that she does. But I now know differently. The only reason I thought of things that way was because I had been conditioned to believe that Christianity was the only "Truth". I thought that something deep down within me had changed because I had been taught that that was how it worked. Looking back at it, nothing had changed. I was the same old me. While I believed in the tenets of Christianity, and tried to be one, nothing had really changed. I am the same person I always was, the only difference is that I don't have any self-imposed inhibitions or guilt about some of my favorite "sins".

 

Basically, deconversion is impossible inasmuch as conversion in the first place doesn't actually happen.

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So maybe deprogramming is a better word?

It would certainly make the point!

 

If they're Calvinists, then they do not believe you can either convert or deconvert, the god chooses you or not. If they aren't Calvinist, then they might use the term "fall away". But if a child can quit believing in Santa, and adult can certainly quit believing in Jesus and any gods. And they're just philosophying, anyway, about the impossibility. It isn't in the Bible.

 

And a man certainly could take back a heart transplant! He could have a second one if the first one failed.

 

The most telling thng is that he equates not believing with paganism. Paganism is the belief in many gods, so a Christian is closer to being a pagan than an atheist is.

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"But if a child can quit believing in Santa, and adult can certainly quit believing in Jesus "

 

That is going in the "quick response" folder in my head!

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You are not an adulterer, and were never married to Jesus, because Jesus doesn't exist.

 

Deconverting is not converting to a religion, it is learning the truth about the Christian God, that he doesn't exist. I have almost always believed in God, so I am at a new place, a blank slate, not a new religion, so I am not converting to anything. I just happen to stumble into atheism which is a lack of belief. I am free now to convert to something if I like.

 

Rez

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  • 2 weeks later...

Deconversion is probably the wrong term in some ways, though it seems to describe a common enough stage that I've seen here over the years.  There seems to be an anti-conversion in a lot of ways, a conversion against Christianity when leaving it, especially from the more conservative strains.  That may well be a product of the thinking that got one mired in Abrahamic religion in the first place, and is probably something to consider for another post.  In a lot of ways the experience is a part of the "purge" that is often made when leaving a belief system, particularly one as aggressive and combative as Christianity.

What follows, however, is probably another conversion, a change in the way one thinks, and a lot of their paradigm to another system of belief.  While around here, it seems that the assumption is that this is atheism (particularly reinforced by the false, but common, teaching of religion "evolving" from nature-worship to many gods to one god) with the natural progression to be to eliminate deity constructs. Others, like many in this section of the forum find something else (or trip into it as was my case) and effectively get "a better offer."

 

When I left there was the destruction of a major part of my identity, ripping out a core piece, which can be referred to as the de/anti-conversion.  Followed by rebuilding and redefining as something new.  In a way a second conversion to better way is almost required.

In a way your friend is articulating a key part of what I, and from descriptions here, many others experienced, Leaving is traumatic, and does involve a "negative action," removing the indoctrination and enabling yourself to dissociate your identity from something that is frequently core to it.  What they missed is what follows is realizing a much greater and deeper truth later, at least an additive experience.  They're most of the way to understanding, but they have to figure out that the shinola is really shit.

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http://www.patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2013/06/why-i-cant-conceive-of-de-conversion.html

 

 

This article I found in a search this morning.

 

 

See I posted on that wonderfully accommodating and intelligent forum of facebook,  the article about our on Stickwitch that the friendly atheist did.  A very fundy friend of mine responded. 

 

She said in her last post last night,  she stated that the concept of deconversion is absurd. Mainly because she stated there is no such word.  She then stated that Stickwitch converted to atheism. 

 

So I did a web search.  

 

sure enough

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conversion

 

: an experience associated with the definite and decisive adoption of a religion

 

So in a sense she could be right.   However, religion is defined as. 

 

Definition of RELIGION
1
a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year ofreligion>
 
(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
 
 
 
There are two problem.   1)  Definition 2 is using a form of the word to define the word which I thought was a no-no.  2)  None of that describes atheism. 
 
The blog post that I found. 
 
 

 

I’ll put it simply. Christianity is a transplant of the eyes and of the heart, by which we see the world differently by becoming incredibly different. I can no more take back Christianity than a man can take back his heart transplant. Christianity is an essential, permanent change to the disposition of the human person. It places an indelible mark on the soul and binds his very life to another. To undo Christianity and to commit suicide are synonyms. So what, is de-conversion impossible? In a word, yes.

 

I cannot go back to living as a happy pagan. To not be a Christian is to be waiting for your bridegroom. But once the marriage has been consummated, and I am made Christian, the rejection Christ is an embrace of absurdity. To reject Christ can never be a leaving — for marriage is eternal — it can only be an adultery, and adultery brings no peace. It only tears in two. Thus, when I truly consider leaving Christianity, I realize that such an action could only be defined as a negative — a neglect of what is truly real and existing within my person.

 

Poetic language aside,  this describes the situation very well. 

 

My fundy friend often posts on her facebook wall that we must trust god.  We may not have the answers but we must trust the one that does.  We must have faith. 

 

Definition of FAITH
1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty
 
(1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
 
(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction;especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestantfaith>
 
This is the problem.  Definition 2b  Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.  If we have questions, then we should just have faith in the one who has the answers.  Who will never talk to you.  Will never teach you.  Will never help you find the answers.
 
Because they believe and have faith, they cannot conceive of the idea that anyone would leave religion.   Thus Stickwitch just converted to atheism.  
 
The subject though remains. Deconvert doesn't exist in any dictionary as a word. It is a new term.  So in a very technical sense she and the blogger are correct.  It is impossible to decovert because the word itself is meaningless or doesn't exist. 
 
Given time though......it will.
 

 

 

 

This is just absurd semantics. I choose what I believe no matter what feable excuse someone else is using to say that I don't. Words are just words. It is the action you are taking that matter nothing more. If I do not believe in gods I never have to use a word I simply can take the action of not worhshipping a false idea. That is an action I have taken against ignorance. So she can argue anything she likes why should I take her seriously when the only person in my mind making my decisions is ME!!!!!

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So maybe deprogramming is a better word?

 

This is perfect if you ask me.  I don't know why people harp on the way something is worded so much anyway. So what if de-conversion is how some people choose to describe their experience. If anything, saying that is actually kinder than saying deprogramming but if they're going to get so technical about it, then deprogram is the perfect word for it. 

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So maybe deprogramming is a better word?

 

This is perfect if you ask me.  I don't know why people harp on the way something is worded so much anyway. So what if de-conversion is how some people choose to describe their experience. If anything, saying that is actually kinder than saying deprogramming but if they're going to get so technical about it, then deprogram is the perfect word for it. 

 

They mean two different things so using the appropriate term (and it could be either in the case of religious changes) would seem the best way.

 

Deprogramming is something someone else usually has to help another person with. Deconversion is something that one comes to often on their own over time. One deals with brainwashing the other with eventual unacceptance that yields a paradigm shift in your life.

 

When I hear the word deprogram I think forcible not voluntary.

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But then the word 'programming' implies an external force too, compared to 'converted' which implies a choice.

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